This is what The firemen should get..
14 November 2002, 09:15 AM
#1
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1. 5% wage rise.
2. New contract. No moonlighting at all .
3. Taxmen to investigate previous "earnings" How many of them are paying tax on their other jobs.
4. No membership of any union.
Anything else???
2. New contract. No moonlighting at all .
3. Taxmen to investigate previous "earnings" How many of them are paying tax on their other jobs.
4. No membership of any union.
Anything else???
14 November 2002, 09:28 AM
#3
Sorry I disagree - this comes from someone that has never been a member of a union and always been vehemently against any form of strike action in the past.
These guys put their lives on the line for us on a daily basis. They have to endure all manner of crap thrown at them ranging from kids setting light to stolen cars to gas cylinders exploding.
IMHO I would be prepared to pay an extra 1% income tax to give these guys the salary they deserve.
It is the scrounging council workers with jobs for life that I can't abide or the bl00dy tube drivers who should be flayed
They have no right to demand what they do.
all IMHO of course before you take me apart
These guys put their lives on the line for us on a daily basis. They have to endure all manner of crap thrown at them ranging from kids setting light to stolen cars to gas cylinders exploding.
IMHO I would be prepared to pay an extra 1% income tax to give these guys the salary they deserve.
It is the scrounging council workers with jobs for life that I can't abide or the bl00dy tube drivers who should be flayed
They have no right to demand what they do.all IMHO of course before you take me apart
14 November 2002, 09:29 AM
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Are any of us going to tell the firemen this sort of stuff when they're rescuing your kids from a blazing house, or cutting a loved one out of a mangled car?
It's easy to pick on certain practices, and of course there are inefficiencies that are easy to point out. I don't think a 40% pay rise is fair either, but I for one would not take the risks that a front-line fireman does for the sort of money they get.
It's easy to pick on certain practices, and of course there are inefficiencies that are easy to point out. I don't think a 40% pay rise is fair either, but I for one would not take the risks that a front-line fireman does for the sort of money they get.
14 November 2002, 09:34 AM
#5
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40% is an absolute joke, even 20% is pushing it. They knew what the pay was before they started the job, so why become a Fireman/woman if the job doesn't pay what they want.
14 November 2002, 09:39 AM
#7
Brun - I agree with you to an extent but then in Yorkshire you don't have the stupid house prices we have in the south east - £120K for a 1 bedroom flat and that is just London commuter belt
you need a £40K salary for a 3x mortgage on a flat that price
you need a £40K salary for a 3x mortgage on a flat that price
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14 November 2002, 09:45 AM
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I think the firemen deserve a good pay rise however 40% is far to much and too quickly. It opens the floodgates for everyone else to demand ridiculous pay hikes.
I have a couple of mates that are firemen and they do well from other activities. The job they do though is tough and they should receive pay comensurate to that. The most important thing is to keep them working, 3 people died last night in fires. No one is blaming the army. But what price do you put on a life?
I have a couple of mates that are firemen and they do well from other activities. The job they do though is tough and they should receive pay comensurate to that. The most important thing is to keep them working, 3 people died last night in fires. No one is blaming the army. But what price do you put on a life?
14 November 2002, 09:55 AM
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You cannot resolve the conflict between what you pay for a relatively easy job, and one that you risk your life in. If my kids were burning in a house I would pay anything and everything to get them out, but that doesnt mean they can be paid whatever for their job.
Ultimately it comes down to what you can get people to do the job for - and there are plenty of unemployed or low paid teachers who would do the job for the money they get. A price has to be put on the job and the risk involved - a rise well above inflation, as offered is fair enough - it is not a profit making organisation so they arent going to be rich - it's the way of the world - live with it.
Ultimately it comes down to what you can get people to do the job for - and there are plenty of unemployed or low paid teachers who would do the job for the money they get. A price has to be put on the job and the risk involved - a rise well above inflation, as offered is fair enough - it is not a profit making organisation so they arent going to be rich - it's the way of the world - live with it.
14 November 2002, 10:32 AM
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sacked? umm, that;s a bit harsh, hope you never need to call upon the fire service.
OK, so of the demands might be a tad cheeky, but, **** it. I'd rather know I have a service out there, then be sitting watching my family burn whilst the fecking army work out what the **** they are doing.
OK, so of the demands might be a tad cheeky, but, **** it. I'd rather know I have a service out there, then be sitting watching my family burn whilst the fecking army work out what the **** they are doing.
14 November 2002, 10:58 AM
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im suppose the firemen did not realise that they would be doing a dangerous job? sorry but the fishermans job is the most dangerous of all - and lokk what the government did to help them - sweet FA.
sorry but over dramitising the "danger" aspect is not on. these guys knew the job. they are trying tohold the copuntry to ransom, and i say screw the bugg3rs down. i ain't no thathcherite but they would not have bothered trying it on with her!
its a bl8ody disgrace IMHO
weava
sorry but over dramitising the "danger" aspect is not on. these guys knew the job. they are trying tohold the copuntry to ransom, and i say screw the bugg3rs down. i ain't no thathcherite but they would not have bothered trying it on with her!
its a bl8ody disgrace IMHO
weava
14 November 2002, 11:02 AM
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Tubedrivers = £31k a year
Nurses = £17k a year
Fireman = £20k a year
Tell me who deserves the money there then?, certainly not the fecking tube drivers!!!! :0
These guys put thier lives at risk for us everyday, they have no choice here people!! - what else can they do?, write letters and ask nidely? Unfortuantly this is going to end in tears but the govenrment should pull thier heads out of thier ***** and sort this.
They are saying that if they give in now then everyone will be doing it, well ********* if you had said yes at the initial request when there was no media onvolved then that would not have happend you muppets!!
Makes me sick, Tubedrivers getting paid 10k more than Fireman - what is the country on???
Nurses = £17k a year
Fireman = £20k a year
Tell me who deserves the money there then?, certainly not the fecking tube drivers!!!! :0
These guys put thier lives at risk for us everyday, they have no choice here people!! - what else can they do?, write letters and ask nidely? Unfortuantly this is going to end in tears but the govenrment should pull thier heads out of thier ***** and sort this.
They are saying that if they give in now then everyone will be doing it, well ********* if you had said yes at the initial request when there was no media onvolved then that would not have happend you muppets!!
Makes me sick, Tubedrivers getting paid 10k more than Fireman - what is the country on???
14 November 2002, 11:06 AM
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Tom, your point about the tube drivers is bang on. No way do they deserve this.
But the main problem is housing costs in London. Its mental. On the news this morning 2 firemen who work in London told how they commute from Wales every week........
Also most firemen earn a lot more...and dont pay tax on there other jobs..
But the main problem is housing costs in London. Its mental. On the news this morning 2 firemen who work in London told how they commute from Wales every week........
Also most firemen earn a lot more...and dont pay tax on there other jobs..
14 November 2002, 11:15 AM
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Its kind of an endless argument this as there are obviously very good reasons not to strike but I can see thier point.
I was genuinly shocked when I heard how little they earn, ok its different accross the country but its still pretty bad for running up ladders into burning buildings and seing people with thier limbs sliced off in RTA's
People say - "well they chose to do it" - that is a very narrow minded opinion, and its that kind of attitude that makes this country such a bag of cack when it comes to things like this!
Iam sure almost the entire nation are behind the firemen in what they are trying to achieve, nobody wants them to strike as it could be us sitting in a crumpled car waiting for the green goddess!
Whats the answer then?, I suggest giving them a pay rise, I think it unfair for them to get less than tube drivers but because this has all been blown out of proportion if the govenrment give in then everyone will be at it - they have worsended the problem, as usual.
I hope as much as the next man it is resolved very soon as these guys are essential but the situation is kind of stuck in a rut now!!
I was genuinly shocked when I heard how little they earn, ok its different accross the country but its still pretty bad for running up ladders into burning buildings and seing people with thier limbs sliced off in RTA's
People say - "well they chose to do it" - that is a very narrow minded opinion, and its that kind of attitude that makes this country such a bag of cack when it comes to things like this!
Iam sure almost the entire nation are behind the firemen in what they are trying to achieve, nobody wants them to strike as it could be us sitting in a crumpled car waiting for the green goddess!
Whats the answer then?, I suggest giving them a pay rise, I think it unfair for them to get less than tube drivers but because this has all been blown out of proportion if the govenrment give in then everyone will be at it - they have worsended the problem, as usual.
I hope as much as the next man it is resolved very soon as these guys are essential but the situation is kind of stuck in a rut now!!
14 November 2002, 11:21 AM
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The real culprits of the piece are the Building Societies and Banks, Or should I say they Government for allowing it to spiral.
It may be an abstract comment to make, but the firemen (who I think are taking the p!ss) feel that the cost of living is outstripping their wages (don't we all) Those in their own houses are ok if its big enough for them to live in and the mortgage is paid, But those trying to get on the ladder are already prices out of the market in real terms. The Government should have made a compulsory cap on lending multiples of wages, and because they haven't, we are now into a situation of people being lean't up to 9X income in the south east. House prices are one of the reasons quoted by the firemen for asking this massive increase.
The government should start building more houses for the workers in the emergency services. It would be a hell of a perk for the workers and would address the problems of getting people into the professions without monster wage hikes.
It may be an abstract comment to make, but the firemen (who I think are taking the p!ss) feel that the cost of living is outstripping their wages (don't we all) Those in their own houses are ok if its big enough for them to live in and the mortgage is paid, But those trying to get on the ladder are already prices out of the market in real terms. The Government should have made a compulsory cap on lending multiples of wages, and because they haven't, we are now into a situation of people being lean't up to 9X income in the south east. House prices are one of the reasons quoted by the firemen for asking this massive increase.
The government should start building more houses for the workers in the emergency services. It would be a hell of a perk for the workers and would address the problems of getting people into the professions without monster wage hikes.
14 November 2002, 11:38 AM
#17
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The point here is that the Fireman have been let down by thier Union by leting then get in this state in the first place
There is always some one worse off
There is always some one better off
Look at all the city boys and IT guys [and accountants
]
who wouldn't get out of bed for £30k a year
The hypocrisy is that Blair did get 40%
btw
No they shouldn't get 40% but they do deserve 20%
Phil
There is always some one worse off
There is always some one better off
Look at all the city boys and IT guys [and accountants
]who wouldn't get out of bed for £30k a year
The hypocrisy is that Blair did get 40%
btw
No they shouldn't get 40% but they do deserve 20%
Phil
14 November 2002, 11:43 AM
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sacked? umm, that;s a bit harsh
A man was rescued by Green Goddess troops with breathing equipment in Lancashire but he also died in hospital.
Another elderly man died in hospital after a fire in a flat in the West Midlands.
Now, I think *that* is harsh [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img][img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img][img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img][img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
14 November 2002, 11:49 AM
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We all knew there would be fatalaties - whos to say these people would have survived anyway? Ok, not the point but I dont we can point the finger at the firemen here at all.
There are people behind the scenes who have let this mess happen, as has been said, the union has let them down.
I think its harsh to sack them, idiotic infact - thik of the consequences.
I dont know the answer but I see why they are doing what they are doing - this just shows the complete bunch of ***** we have in charge of things like this, we are going backwards.
There are people behind the scenes who have let this mess happen, as has been said, the union has let them down.
I think its harsh to sack them, idiotic infact - thik of the consequences.
I dont know the answer but I see why they are doing what they are doing - this just shows the complete bunch of ***** we have in charge of things like this, we are going backwards.
14 November 2002, 11:59 AM
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Ok, three people dying isn't great, but this can't be used as an arguement as this is a typical figure for fatalities from house fires in a normal night when the firemen aren't on strike.
14 November 2002, 12:00 PM
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i speak as a funeral director, which is something i do not usually do, i usually mention my building firm instead when replying to threads.
as a person in the habit of seeing a large number of dead bodies in various conditions, i feel i have some thing to offer to this arguement.
once you have been in a profession, any profession, one gradually becomes "normalised" for want of a better expression, to the day to day routine of the job.
in the case of firemen, playing the "trauma" card is wrong.
i personally do not pull the sort of money from my profession that the firemen do.
it's my business, therefore thats my hard luck, and i can try to improve this if i choose.
the firemen deserve more yes, but all this crap about "oh my jobs so hard because of the trama we have to endure" is ridiculous.
if they think that more money will help them get over any "trama" they are wrong. if they are that traumatised, then they are in the wrong profession any way.
also, WTF have the army not commendered the fire brigades vehicles?
weava
also v5 i thought the figure was one a night?
[Edited by mista weava - 11/14/2002 12:02:26 PM]
as a person in the habit of seeing a large number of dead bodies in various conditions, i feel i have some thing to offer to this arguement.
once you have been in a profession, any profession, one gradually becomes "normalised" for want of a better expression, to the day to day routine of the job.
in the case of firemen, playing the "trauma" card is wrong.
i personally do not pull the sort of money from my profession that the firemen do.
it's my business, therefore thats my hard luck, and i can try to improve this if i choose.
the firemen deserve more yes, but all this crap about "oh my jobs so hard because of the trama we have to endure" is ridiculous.
if they think that more money will help them get over any "trama" they are wrong. if they are that traumatised, then they are in the wrong profession any way.
also, WTF have the army not commendered the fire brigades vehicles?
weava
also v5 i thought the figure was one a night?
[Edited by mista weava - 11/14/2002 12:02:26 PM]
14 November 2002, 12:04 PM
#22
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We have to remember here that the fireman save lives through choice - they dont hate what they do and THEY DONT NOT WANT to be doing this but they have famalies to support and bills to pay.
Very interested to see how this unfolds.
Very interested to see how this unfolds.
14 November 2002, 12:24 PM
#23
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Well yes and no -
I can see your point weava and its a valid one but the firemen are not dealing with just dead bodies are they, they see and hear children die and people live through horrific burns, I dont think anyone on earth can become immune to that!
They loose friends in thier job and see things as they happen and as such deal with things as they happen so if something doesnt go right and someone dies then the firemen will feel that perhaps they could have done better.
Your delaing with the end product and Iam sure that is horrific and I dont envy you for one second mate at all - infact respect to you for doing it but firemen go through alot more than just seing dead bodies, sometimes they are the dead bodies.
As I said - thewre is no right or wrong answer to this. Lets hope it gets resolved quickly before more people die.
There is a fireman that lives over the road from my mum and when he couldnt save a fella from a burning house he had to have a month of work with trauma - dont know the full story but this is a guy Ive always had respect for so yes - they can play the trauma car and justly so.
I can see your point weava and its a valid one but the firemen are not dealing with just dead bodies are they, they see and hear children die and people live through horrific burns, I dont think anyone on earth can become immune to that!
They loose friends in thier job and see things as they happen and as such deal with things as they happen so if something doesnt go right and someone dies then the firemen will feel that perhaps they could have done better.
Your delaing with the end product and Iam sure that is horrific and I dont envy you for one second mate at all - infact respect to you for doing it but firemen go through alot more than just seing dead bodies, sometimes they are the dead bodies.
As I said - thewre is no right or wrong answer to this. Lets hope it gets resolved quickly before more people die.
There is a fireman that lives over the road from my mum and when he couldnt save a fella from a burning house he had to have a month of work with trauma - dont know the full story but this is a guy Ive always had respect for so yes - they can play the trauma car and justly so.
14 November 2002, 01:10 PM
#24
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There was post on here about politics, some time ago.
I said that I felt all the pain of the Thatcher years had given us a good strong ecomony but the work was being undone before our eyes.
That is exactly the sort of thing that will have us back to the days of the 70's when the lights went out. There are two things that fuel inflation, demand and ability to pay inflated prices. And if house prices collapsed, would anyone offer a pay cut because they didn't need the extra money now?
Who thinks that if the firemen are given their demands the entire public workforce will not also put in ridiculous demands and strike until their demands are met?
The similarity with Lifeboat men was mentioned the other day. These guys do the most selfless job because they enjoy it. They use highly specialised equipment and they do so an arena far more dangerous than any of us can imagine. They do it for no pay. But then it takes up a small enough amount of their time that that can make this contribution whilst maintaining other jobs to support their lifestyles. The waiting list to be a lifeboat man is just as long as that to be a fire fighter and both breeds are a special type of person that we cannot do without.
Fire fighter pay is low but the working conditions, hours and benefits are the best in any industry. And it far easier to decide a rescue is too dangerous to consider from the safety of a fire truck than it is from a boat in a force 9 gale, 10 miles offshore.
But here's the point... If fire fighting were a full time job it, it would indeed warrant a considerable increase in salary. I suspect that fewer fire fighters would be needed as fewer men would work more hours. The cost to the public may even reduce.
How many fire fighters would prefer such a working practise? Is this a solution to the problem?
* edited for translation to english*
[Edited by Pete Croney - 11/14/2002 1:17:52 PM]
I said that I felt all the pain of the Thatcher years had given us a good strong ecomony but the work was being undone before our eyes.
House prices are one of the reasons quoted by the firemen for asking this massive increase.
Who thinks that if the firemen are given their demands the entire public workforce will not also put in ridiculous demands and strike until their demands are met?
The similarity with Lifeboat men was mentioned the other day. These guys do the most selfless job because they enjoy it. They use highly specialised equipment and they do so an arena far more dangerous than any of us can imagine. They do it for no pay. But then it takes up a small enough amount of their time that that can make this contribution whilst maintaining other jobs to support their lifestyles. The waiting list to be a lifeboat man is just as long as that to be a fire fighter and both breeds are a special type of person that we cannot do without.
Fire fighter pay is low but the working conditions, hours and benefits are the best in any industry. And it far easier to decide a rescue is too dangerous to consider from the safety of a fire truck than it is from a boat in a force 9 gale, 10 miles offshore.
But here's the point... If fire fighting were a full time job it, it would indeed warrant a considerable increase in salary. I suspect that fewer fire fighters would be needed as fewer men would work more hours. The cost to the public may even reduce.
How many fire fighters would prefer such a working practise? Is this a solution to the problem?
* edited for translation to english
*[Edited by Pete Croney - 11/14/2002 1:17:52 PM]
14 November 2002, 01:25 PM
#25
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On a slight tangent, if this means it will be a nail in the coffin of B.liar and co, then it's not all bad
But, I suspect Teflon Tone will wriggle out of this one too......
But, I suspect Teflon Tone will wriggle out of this one too......
14 November 2002, 01:33 PM
#27
What I don't understand is why the Firemans Union has done sweet FA about sorting out what looks like an outdated pay scheme and then wallops in a 40% rise.
Sounds like either pi$$ poor assistance to their members or an individual has decided to make a name for himself this year. If he's not careful he will do a Scargill and **** up the whole industry for the sake of self promotion.
This problem should never have got this bad if the Union had assessed its members situation on an annual basis and decided some 5 - 10 years ago that it was lagging behind. Perhaps a better index linked pay could have been arranged to avoid strikes and public animosity towards the industry.
Nick
Sounds like either pi$$ poor assistance to their members or an individual has decided to make a name for himself this year. If he's not careful he will do a Scargill and **** up the whole industry for the sake of self promotion.
This problem should never have got this bad if the Union had assessed its members situation on an annual basis and decided some 5 - 10 years ago that it was lagging behind. Perhaps a better index linked pay could have been arranged to avoid strikes and public animosity towards the industry.
Nick
14 November 2002, 01:36 PM
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"Fire fighter pay is low but the working conditions, hours and benefits are the best in any industry"
I nearly lost my Dad because of the wonderful "working conditions", but you've obviously got quite a bit of experience in the fire-fighting business, so I'll bow to your superior judgement.
[Edited by popeye - 11/14/2002 1:36:44 PM]
I nearly lost my Dad because of the wonderful "working conditions", but you've obviously got quite a bit of experience in the fire-fighting business, so I'll bow to your superior judgement.
[Edited by popeye - 11/14/2002 1:36:44 PM]