EVOLUTION

[http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/legal/general_advice.html]

[http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/frames.html]

Please take a look at these sites, they may be of some use. The letter below was taken from UK SPEEDTRAPS

John

[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/10/2002 11:31:44 AM]

EVOLUTION

Dear Sirs,

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated……….in which you allege that I have committed a speeding offence. That letter does not provide, or offer to provide, any evidence that I have indeed committed such an offence.

I regard your allegation with the utmost concern as I am being asked to make a very important decision which could very seriously affect my future quality of life.

I shall be grateful therefore if you will advise me where, in law, does it state or allow for evidence against a suspect to be deliberately withheld following, or during, the process of an official demand for the payment of money (in this case a £60.00 fixed penalty (or) £95.00 for a 'Speed Awareness Course'.

Further, whereby failure to pay that money on demand will expose the person suspected of that offence to a possible fine of up to £1000.00 (plus costs) at a Magistrates' Court, an amount that is in excess of 16 times (or 11 times) (respectively) the amount of money previously demanded.

This, in my view, could potentially be a criminal offence in itself, the offence of demanding money with menaces. It is also arguably a breach of my human rights in that I am being subjected to unreasonable and possibly unlawful pressure by being placed into a 'pay us now and save yourself harassment later' position.

I am entitled, in law, to all and any evidence that I have committed the offence complained of before I pay any money to you - not just at Court, but as soon as you issue me with a fixed penalty (or offer me a speed awareness course).

I look forward to your response.

Yours faithfully

………………….



Please also not that the source of this information and i for that matter will not be held responsable for subsequent action taken against any person using this letter in thier defence.

John

[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/10/2002 11:44:48 AM]

steve McCulloch

Evo and Burr

Its ok I dont need to post off line - as I cant see that they can prove who's committed the offence - if it had shown me or the girlfriend - fair enough we could have then have said - ok fair cop - now I'll go and buy a rear laser jammer and have it fitted to all my cars you barstewards......

Evo

I have the photo of... you cant even see the driver let alone who was driving...

Its the point they make about the fact that all they need to do is confirm that the offence has occured - and I have to supply details

Thanks

[Edited by steve McCulloch - 11/10/2002 11:29:45 AM]

chrisp

I am NOT a laywer and I dont know how true this is but a heard of two guys who shared a car and an NIP came through and they couldnt tell from the photo or remember who was driving. So they both went to court and admitted it was their car and it was speeding but it could have been either of them, so th ecourt should do them both equally. As they cant be done for the same offence (cant both be driving at the same time) and the law cant knowingly convict an innocent person. They had to drop the case. In view of the time it has taken to get to you and that you cant remeber who was driving I would talk to a lawyer, but this may cost more than the fine .

Again not sure how true the story is or merely folk law. Have you looked at the speed trap bible site ?

Cheers

Chris

[Edited by chrisp - 11/10/2002 11:54:23 AM]

steve McCulloch

Got an NIP the other week, from my employer (read November) for an offence dating back to July 2002!

I rang the police unit who stated that the NIP was sent withinn 7 days to the registered keeper - this is the lease company - who sent in back in Augusst with the employer name - it seems that the police then sent it to mny employer at the start of October!! and cos I was in the States I got it at the start of November

I asked the police aabout the series of events - i.e. why the big delay between August and October and they said they couldnt give out any info as it was covered under the Data Protection Act

I am asked to give the person who was driving - now thats either me or the girlfriend - both would have had access to the car - so I asked for a copy of the Photograph or video evidence to support the claim

This I got back - on the Photo you can only juust make out the Registration and cant see aat all who was driving as its a rear facing shot from a 'Mobile Unit' taken aat 152.6m's - I suspect the image has been 'blown up' but it may not have been - just taken with a Video unit that can take pictures from a distance away

The offence is minor - 73 in a 60.. on the motorway (a 60mph section)

The letter from the police states

'The Photo evidence may not necessarily identify the driver, the evidence is used to confirm the vehicle and the registration mark. Therefore, it is still your legal responsibility to supply the drivers details'

The whole point of me getting the photo was to try and identify the driver - theres no way of telling if it was me or the girlfriend

I cant therefore give the drivers details as I dont know who it was as, especially as its nearly 4 months ago.....

I only have 3 points and the girlfriend has nver had any.. - its just the principle of the thing - any advice would be greatly appreciated

I would have thought that a court would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt who was driving and they cant from the evidence... are the laws different for driving offences

If this were on the road for speeding, if everyone waited by the side of the road and the police pulled up would it not be the duty of the police to prove who was driving.....

BuRR

To be guilty of an offence in the UK, the offence has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

Weigh up the evidence..... would you be placing yourself in the guilty seat for an offence you did not commit? Same goes for your girlfriend. Put it this way, you BOTH can't be guilty, so how does the prosecution prove who is? Also, how can you state who weas driving if you honestly can't remember that far back?

All the delay (which if you state above is the case) should act as mitigation on your part, for the reason why you are unable to disclose drivers details.

Mail me off board, if you like?

EVOLUTION

do some research into that 1. i heard of this in one of the motoring mags. Somewhere,not sure where on the net, say under the human rights act, we do not have to give incrimanating evidence against ourselves. If the photogragh doesnt clearly show who it was, which i take it you have, then theres not a lot they can do.
Do you remember about that chief constable in Middelsborough, he got off with the exact same offence the same way.

There is a draft of a letter which you can send them (with all kinds of clever wording) which is basicaly saying that you dont know who was driving , Therefore your not going to accept the endorsement points.

Will post more details later today as im going to find and post this letter.

Note, this only works when the driver is clearly NOT shown in the photo.

John

steve McCulloch

The main difference with the letter is that I have the evidence - just thats its useless in establishing sho committed the offence - other than the car itself....

stephen30

I seem to rememer a report on the BBC where they got one for a specific vehicle. It was an outside broadcast units and the two guys shared the driving. Same thing as you, they had no clue who was driving so as there was no proof of who was neither got prosecuted.
If you do say it was you for example, aren't you commiting another offence by lying to the police?
If it was me and I genuinely had no idea who was driving, I would say that. At least you are being honest.

Steve

steve McCulloch

Stephen

Thats it though - I dont know who was driving - the police are trying to say that I'm committing an offence by not knowing!!

I'm certainly not lying...

EVOLUTION

Just be carful, do not believe a word they say and you should not go wrong.

I had a small bump a few years ago now, no injurys but there was about £600 worth of damage. My fault, had the front of my car sticking out at the junction and scraped the side of her car.

I held my hands up and said i would cover the cost.
no problem she says and we both left, me feeling like a bit of a prat.

2 days later i had a phone call from the police saying someone had reported the accident to the police and they needed to tie up a few loose ends.

So off i went (with my docs just in case) and i was taken off for an interview which i was then served with a NIP for dangerous driving, Young lad in a scoob,,, well he had to be didnt he !!!!

She made a claim for personal injury, at this point i had to notify my insurers, then lost NCB. Got legal advice and got off with the D/D charge and she got a few quid.

Bottom line DONT TRUST THEM AT ALL they do tell lies and they are above the law

John

stephen30

Never had one of these but surely they must take into account the fact that you don't know who was driving, especially as it was months ago. Don't know any friendly lawyers who you could chat to do you?
I watch crimewatch every so often and I don't know who did all the crimes on there. If they follow the same logic we'd all get arrested all the time.

Steve

steve McCulloch

Dont I just know it...

I've had a few run ins with them in the past

The one that really pissed me off was having about 2 inches of the front of the car over the zig zag zone of a zebra crossing for all of 30 seconds whilst I got some money out of the bank

They said that if any part of the vehicle no matter how small was in the area it was 3 points on the license - I mean what stupid TO%SERS.... now if the car was parked in the zone for a long period fair enough.....

Worse still was getting an SP50 for 78 in a 70.... I was
apparenetly outside the 10% tolernace zone - I put it down to the car being red and they were playing snooker...

steve McCulloch

Speed trap bible - will have a looky

BuRR

The letter is standard practice for all motoring offences where the driver at the time of the incident is not known. You're not being singled-out here.

JFB

Steve, just my twoppence worth:-

A policeman friend of mine has a brother also in the force who was in an identical situation to you. After getting the picture in evidence, the windscreen reflection prevented any chance of identifying the driver. He could prove from his work timetable and that of his girlfriend (both share the car) that it could have been either of them behind the wheel at the time.

He then wrote back explaining that he did not wish to "pervert the course of justice by not admitting to the offence but he genuinely could not confirm who was driving at the time. In addition he did not wish to pervert the course of justice by admitting to committing an offence he may not have committed in the first place".

Charge was dropped and he did'nt reveal his occupation.

Hope this is of some use.

Jerome (not a solicitor or nuffink)

teambwr47

Whatever has been said above listen to this:-

IGNORE ALL CORRESPONDANCE FROM THE POLICE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS>>>

Why......well it goes something like this. All the new enforcement vans have increased the quantity of tickets so much that a large number of police forces are now not pursuing the non payers.
Reason is simple, so many pay up that its not economic to chase those who fail to reply.
This is also why the police in most areas have stopped sending out NIPs on recorded delivery! This was normal proceedure just a few years back.
What they will do is send you an NIP then about 2 months later a NIP/Driver request reminder and then the final attempt is a letter threatening a max 1000 pound fine or 6months in the nick.
The same fine is technically possible for offences as minor as dropping litter......it never happens. Burglars and thiefs don't go to the clink these days its just an attempt to frighten joe public into paying/replying. Most of you will not of heard of the term STATUTE BARRED. THis means that offences of speeding etc have to have a summons issued or imformation laid before a court inside of SIX months from the date of offence!!!!
IF THIS IS NOT DONE YOU ARE SAFE AND THE POLICE CAN DO SWEET FA ABOUT IT!!
Believe or believe it not but this comes from a source who knows a little about..........
Most important of all though....DO NOT REPLY AT ALL!!!! Once you call them or send a reply you are known to have recieved papers etc and they will do you either for the offence or failing to give details etc.
Want proof.......wife has a heavy right foot in the 330 and has saved 6 (2 x3) points from being added to her licence over the past 18 months!
I accept that not all forces in the UK will maybe have the same policy but this is true!

russell hayward

Have to agree.

Know someone who has had two of these recently, didn't reply and received a letter a while later saying it was not being followed up.

Redkop

I heard this too on a Talksport radio phone-in last week. Try ignoring any notification sent to you.

[Edited by Redkop - 11/11/2002 8:22:30 AM]

NotoriousREV

teambwr47,

I tried this and it didn't work for me.

My car is registered at my boss's home address in my name (thats where the company used to be based) and I eventually recieved an NIP there. However, the boss was in the process of moving house, so I fugured, what the hell, by the time the next one comes through, he'll be gone from there.

Well a second one came through, so I ignored that. By this time I began to think that as my driving licence included my middle name and my car registration didn't, and the car was registered in another city I'd get away scott free.

Imagine my surprise when I got a visit from the Cheshire Police Inter-Force Liason Officer (something like that, anyway). It seems that North Wales Police were so keen on tracking me down that they were visiting everyone in the country with the same name and asking them if they had ever owned the vehicle in question. Of course, the bloody thing was parked on my drive so I couldn't say no and he made me fill in the paperwork there and then.

All this for 72 in a 60

mutant_matt

Notorious,

If the car isn't registered to you then all the Police have to do is issue the NIP to the registered keeper within 14 days. If it then takes them x amount of time to track down who was in possesion of the car at that time, there is nothing you can do about that, they can still prosecute. However, if it takes them 6 months to track you down, it's not unreasonable that you can't remember who was driving by then

However, if the car is registered to you and you don't get an NIP within 14 days of the offence then you are off the hook. If they don't send the NIP's recorded deliveries these days then they can't prove that you were served it in which case I would suspect their whole case against you is on shakey ground!

If they don't send any paperwork recorded and you don't reply to any of it, I guess they are screwed as they can't prove you recieved any of it.

Matt

[Edited by mutant_matt - 11/11/2002 8:35:29 AM]

steve McCulloch

Think I'll send them a bland retort

I think they'll have to drop it as many people have told me that they cant try 2 people for the same offence - which is what others on here have mentioned.... should be a get out any time

Always makes my USA colleagues laugh - over there this sort of thing is illegal (as it is in most of Europe) under the Human Rights Act..