SimonH

The wife of a friend of mine has recently set up in business. A friend of theirs offered his services to design a logo for them and said he'd do them a good price.
He came up with three logos, one of which they liked and accepted. He then handed them a bill for all three logos at £120 each saying that they had to pay for all three even though they only ever wanted one.
Is this an "Industry standard" thing to do?
If so I'm off to setup in business fleecing my mates

mr flibble

yep.

My bro is a freelance illustrator\designer and would have probably charged £120 for all 3 not each!!. He is currently working on a logo for a small company in the southwest.

Alpine

I've always paid for this sort of thing by time.. But £400 notes to get a logo doesn't seem extreme by any measure..

beemerboy

yes, i guess thats fair, as he's done all the work....

bit of a grey area, which should be sorted before work commences.

if you explain the mis-understanding, if there was any, i'm sure he'd cut you a deal....

BB

SimonH

So basically it's a win/win situation?
A logo designer could scribble out three logos with crayons and still charge for each of them when the customer says no????

Blimey - I've got some old rope here anyone want to give me some money for it?

Mr F - I guess they should've shopped around then rather than go to their friend....

RichS

He probably should have charged by the hour, rather than a fixed price for one logo.
Then it would have been and seemed fairer.

He could have spent weeks working and fine tuning several designs only to achieve a pre-agreed fixed price (if that's how he had charged.)

AlexB

Should have agreed a price first. The cost is not unreasonable though in a B2B world (not sure about Mate2Mate though?).

Development of several ideas to a first stage is typically the way forward. The preferred design can then be taken to stage 2, 3 etc. to be fine tuned.

If this person now uses one of the rejected two designs elsewhere, then I would not be happy. Logos should be developed to a proper brief, hence making them unique to that company/organisation/venture.

It's not "money for old rope" either. Design is a skill that very few people can do well and should be paid for as such.

scoobynutta555

What makes me laugh is the large firms that change their names. Consignia, Corus to name just two. Most peops not have a clue who they are yet they were the Post Office and British steel. In fact i think that Consignia are reverting back to Post Office brand. And the cost of changing is enormous, i think its just a big exercise in self indulgence. I mean why change your name from something that is recognised to something quite obscure???

Luke

Simon..How long is the rope and is it complete with both ends????

Fuzz

It's twice as long as it is from the middle to one end.

Andy

Dream Weaver

When I do a logo design I work based on costs of £25 an hour. For that I will have a consultation with the project owner, create the brief for the logo and work to that.

The logo mocks will be created until the final logo is decided on. Sometimes it can take 3 mocks and we get there, sometimes 10, but I charge per hour, not per mock, and generally miss out certain hours when, for example, designers block sets in, or there is some tricky work involved.

My last logo job had 5 mocks (including redrafts) and the cost was less than £100, which includes the logo delivered on CD in all formats, as well as copyright handed to the owner.

As said though, you are paying for the design skills, expertise, time, direct costs and research knowledge. You cant just knock these things out in an hour.

It can vary amazingly though - some companies still charge a bomb.

DW

SimonH

I'm not suggesting you design blokeys should all work for free but surely this guy is having his cake and eating it too??

Client says I would like a logo please. Designer spends ages drawing up the logos but customer doesn't like any of them - from what I can gather the customer still picks up the tab....
Who carries the risk here? The customer apparently.
Like I say, it's win/win for the designer. Doesn't matter if you charge by the hour, the logo or by the number of crayons you use you're still going to make money whatever happens. I fully appreciate that you have to make money and I'm not suggesting you do it for free it just strikes me (and my friend who is the one being billed for three logos) as odd.

As far as I can tell you should go to designer blokey and say "make me a logo please". He says "alright that's £130 please".
If he's any good he rattles one off, presents it and bobs your uncle. You’ve got your logo and he’s got his £130.
If he's crap he keeps designing them and the customer keeps rejecting them.
Good designer gets £130 for a day or so’s work.
Crap designer gets £130 (eventually maybe) for a couple of week's work. Crap designer loses job and goes back to strangling ferrets or whatever it was he used to do before he got Corel Draw on his PC.

As it stands at the moment good designer draws up three logos and gets £390 and so does crap designer. Customer only want one.
Where's the competition? It's like a builder coming round, spending a month building an extension on your house, at the end of which it falls down. "Sorry" he says "but you should still pay me because I've been working on it for a month". Doesn't matter that it's crap....

Sorry, but I'm a military bloke and consequently don't live in the la-la land of business; maybe that's why I'm having difficulty with this particular concept.

PS. As I said the rope is old but it will still do the job. It’s an extruded polypropylene tape twisted into a hawser laid rope with one of the ends missing. Length, as the man said, is about double the distance from the middle to the end.
Selling up as thinking of moving into design work which appears to be even easier than retailing old rope.


PPS. That should get them all going……

Dream Weaver

All depends on the customer as well though. If the customer knows what they want, then the designer bloke can usually translate that into a good design, end of story. If the customer doesn't know, then designer bloke wont know either.

Hourly billing can also save the customer money as well. Say I agreed to design a logo for £130. I may spend 2 hours designing one, and the customer says "love it, I will have that". Cost would have been £50 with hourly rate, but they pay £130.

I dont disagree with you, you just need to look at both sides of the story. The guy charging £120 each for the three logos is just pure cheek.

One thing I do say to customers, whether it be logo or web, is that a ceiling limit can be set for the cost. Generally a logo will not exceed £150. Sometimes it can take 2 hours, sometimes 10, all swings and roundabouts.

And finally, if you want to move into the design world, it isn't straight cut like you think. If you can manage on an average of £700 a month then fire away, if not then dont. I do it cos I really love the job, but I cant continue forever, as it just doesn't pay enough. And the myth that seems to be prevelant about downloading Corel Draw, Dreamweaver etc is just that, a myth. It takes years of being involved in design and a natural talent to produce good work. Degrees are not required as some of the greats can prove, but you need to eat, sleep and breathe what you do.

I do agree with what you are saying to a level, so dont get me wrong, but its not always cut and dry.

Flame suit on for the usuals

Dream Weaver

Also, building on the hourly rate thing, that is dependant largely on how the designer works. If I spend 3 hours doing the work, and the customer thinks it is crap, then the timesheet reflects as 0 hours. If I then spend another 3 hours doing some more and they love them, the timesheet is 3 hours.

I dont charge for work that a customer dislikes, as this means (as you rightly point out) that I haven't done my job correctly in the first place, i.e. I haven't "listened" to what the customer wanted.

Dream Weaver

I would say he is having his "buffet" and eating it

Having said that, everyone always says that I undercharge vastly, so maybe I need to up my prices

DW

tuffer

www.tuff-net.com that one cost me £200 but the T**ser forgot to hand over the originals so Im now short of some logos, anyone know how to reproduce them?

AdrianFRST

I'm with DW.

If you know what you want, it costs you less. If you don't, you're paying for the designer's time to think for you.

In my experience some people will absolutely love the first thing you show them, others aren't happy after seeing 10 or so.

I think every designer's dealt with someone who knows what they don't like, but hasn't a clue what they do.

[Edited by AdrianFRST - 10/22/2002 8:52:28 AM]

SimonH

By that then, if you know what you want then you should pay the designer even less as you've done most of the thinking for him??

A good designer must surely be able to quiz the customer on what they want and extract what the customer want their logo to achieve. Just knocking out logos until the customer likes something is no way to do business (although apparently it is).

Dream Weaver

Thats not how it works Simon. You do base the designs on what the customer has stipulated, but it is nice to give them a choice, rather than some companies that will just design 1 logo.

A lot of people are indecisive as well. They are clear on what they want, you design something for them, they like it, then at the last minute change their mind on the colour scheme, layout, font, text etc. Back to square 1 again. So on your point of the customer having to pay for designs they dont want, how about them paying when they mess you about like that? I personally dont charge for it, but they should pay really if it is their indecision. Swings and roundabouts again.

As I said, I personally dont charge for something that a customer doesn't like. Maybe thats how all logo designers should work.

Dream Weaver

True

MarkO

Sounds to me like you're selling yourself short. Surely if the design brief is good enough, the likelihood of the customer not liking the end result will be very small?

Dream Weaver

So far none existant. I seem to able to translate design briefs very well. I'm sure it will happen though, and if so thats hows I will handle it.

They were just examples Mark.

[Edited by Dream Weaver - 10/22/2002 11:09:09 AM]

beemerboy

if a girl did this kind of work, would she be a MockingBird??

BB

AlexB

Let's not have any more talk of "crayons" please. The days of the MagicMarker are long gone.

FACT - good interpretation of client's needs through questioning equals first time designs very close to what they want.

FACT - good designers don't just knock out a load of ideas then say "pick one" to the client. If 3 designs are presented, they would typically be variantions of typestyle colourways etc.

FACT - designing a logo needs to take in to account anywhere the logo might appear and still make it look good, whether on the side of an aeroplane in full colour or in the corner of a fax header in mono.

FACT - you can pay virtually anything for a logo design. Some agencies will want thousands (with aneye on the above mentioned), some poeple will throw it in for free with a website of a brochure.

FACT - you get what you pay for - logos and old rope included.

Simon, your rope sounded quite a good one. How much do you want for it??

Dream Weaver

Design work, and what people are willing to pay does make me laugh actually. Folk are astounded when you charge them £150 for a logo which took 6 odd hours of design and research to make, not forgetting the skills required in learning how to use software, learning about design and typefaces etc, but then they quite happily pay £2000 a month to have a naff advert in the bloody Yellow Pages.

Same with websites. People ask for the whole shebang, with database driven updates etc etc, and want it all for £500 - less than one newspaper advert, yet it is there for life.

Yet no-one minds paying £1400 for new brake kits on their road car when not necessary.

IMHO of course, and doesn't reflect on anyone from the BBS - just in general.

AlexB

Suggestion would be then not to do work for people who think £150 is too much for a logo. And likewise walk away from complicated websites deemed expensive at £500. Not easy I know to turn work down but you must not undersell yourself.

There are people out there willing to pay market rates (i.e. higher than the figures mentioned) for these services!!!

You and I and countless others know what prices are sensible for particular jobs - make people value your worth.

SimonH

AlexB - easy now. I'm sure you're all jolly well qualified and clever; "crayons" is just gentle banter Perhaps you're an emotional artistic type so I'll pack it in (should be enough friendly winks to cover it).

I have no problems with you lot charging for a product you produce, I just find the methods of business strange. I'm never going to buy a logo so couldn't really give a monkey's - I'm just interested, having seen what my friend has had to deal with.

You can charge £1,000,000 per logo if you like but I just find it strange that you can also charge another £1,000,000 for each of the other logos that the client doesn't want/like.

As I said in my last post, surely a good designer can discuss with the client what they want and then get it right first time so I agree with you AlexB. Perhaps my friend shouldn't have gone to his friend for the logo but to a "good" designer instead....I guess then he would be paying more than £390 for his one logo then......

PS. I'll swap you the rope for a big logo to go on the side of my aircraft

AlexB

Not an emotional, artistic type at all. Actually haven't got an ounce of artistic talent. And as for emotion, well, I'm a bloke so the less emotions the better! For the record, I work in sales for a marketing, design and print company - so I'm the one who presents the prices and tell the client how wonderful it will all turn out!! I then pass my brief to an emotional type who does the crayon work.

The original point you made before everyone put in their 2p's worth was right in principle. To charge £130 PER LOGO is wrong (especially as it sounds like the £130 x 3 was dropped on them after the event). To charge £390 FOR DEVELOPMENT OF A NEW LOGO would have been a better way to put it - and you'd rightly expect some variations to choose from at the first stage, plus developments to stages 2/3/4 etc.

Just wanted to put forward a point, hope no offence taken. There was a reply above to Dreamweaver as he is a good mate of mine and I know (as does he) that he should certainly be getting paid more for some of the websites he produces.

SimonH

I retract my emotional artistic type comments then



I agree about DW's products by the way - the design work on the Scoobysport and Scoobynet Shop sites is very impressive

Dream Weaver

And a happy ending was had by all.

The end