andrew420

Morning all…..got a little incident I wanna run by you guys for some advice.

I was in Harwich on Saturday night (9ish) about to meet the missus and needed some cash so decided to go into the town centre first. On my way in I noticed Feds going the other way then they swung round sharpish and high tailed it to catch me up and followed me……………fair enough I thought they have seen a strange looking car and prolly think its some 17 year old with a nova and a sparrow catcher on the bonnet. Stopped at the cash machine and the feds put the blues on.

The copper then came up to my window did the usual switch the engine off etc and proceeded to tell me that my Exhaust was too loud. He then asks me to sit in his police mondo while he writes me out a ticket and gives me a £30 fine!

I asked him if there was a meter in the cop car to measure how loud it was…….his answer “No…erm its not a standard exhaust is it? (no **** Einstein) if its not the one it came out of the factory with then its too loud?!” I then said it been M.O.T’d with it on!? “Well sometimes the just don’t check it”

The copper was about 19 and on his own…………..and I can’t help but think he doesn’t actually know what he was doing?!

Now firstly it is a loud exhaust no disputing that……………..BUT remember I was fully aware that he was following me and was even aware that he turned round so was NOT booting it in anyway. I wasn’t even nailing it before he saw me as I was in the Town (30mph).

Secondly can a copper give you a ticket for something that can clearly be measured and is only in HIS opinion exceeding that level?? Example if caught speeding they have a limit and if you exceed it then they have proof of how much by or if they tell you your emissions are too high then they measure that and tell you how much by.

If I had been done for having fogs on or illegal number plates I wouldn’t have minded as its plain to see the fogs are on or the plate is too small but being done for excessive exhaust noise…………..surely he is enforcing a subjective opinion on something that can clearly be measured.

I understand fully that cops will and do uses there discretion for matters but these are all subjective like driving recklessly or without due care and attention. (things that cant be measured)

I would like to contest this and am after advise or similar experiences. Surely if the copper is in the right he can just go to any car and say that an exhaust is too loud (with out having proof) and give them a ticket…………its like him saying black is yellow.

Like I said I wouldn’t have minded but it’s the principal of the whole thing……..the cop was on his own too so its not like he had anyone to agree with him either!

Where do I stand ?? Shall I fight the power and liberate all owners from this persecution?? Or is it just sour grapes?


Cheers


Andy

MarkO

I suggest you stick a muffled pipe on the car, and then take the ******* to court. Like you say, it's totally unprovable.

andrew420

That’s what I am going to do..............but now I have to go through the hassle of court now...........they way I see it is that if its "too loud" then how loud was it?? and therefore by how much over the limit was it?? am I correct in this line of thinking? or will I make a tit of my self............(is there some obscure traffic law where they can just say your zorst is too loud and fine you for it with no proof) just after some advice before I go with guns blazing...........for what it worth I live in London and have NEVER been pulled over. I can help but think the lad was bored as there was no other traffic (little port town) he also may have been married to his sister.

Cheers
Andy

NotoriousREV

I'd get it measured properly to find out if it is too loud and if it is, change the exhaust and get it measured again so you have proof that *it* isn't too loud.

I know with bikes that any exhaust must be stamped with the appropriate BS number and I *think* that this also applies to cars but is far less rigourously enforced (probably due to the fact that the number could be stamped anywhere and not be easily reachable) but seeing as he gave you a ticket for it being "too loud" he's stuffed.

In fact, you probably shouldn't have to prove it isn't too loud, only that the copper could not have possibly measured the level of the exhaust accurately. Ask when his ears were last calibrated and does he have the certificate to prove it

marty_t3

I always thought that if the police thought your exhaust was too loud then you had to have the car checked at an MOT station (in the same way that they send you to get your lights checked if they stop you with a dodgy brake light or something). I didn't think they could charge you on the spot.

I'd contest it.... maybe borrow a non-standard exhaust (but a quieter one than yours) and take your car to an MOT station and ask them to check it. Then send your new 'evidence' to the procurator fiscal and the police then demand an explanation and apology.

I used to live about 50 yards from a police station and had a full catless HKS hiper on my car (not road legal due to noise levels) and i never got stopped once. Even had one of the local policemen compliment me on the sound of my car despite my exhaust setting off car alarms on a regular basis. Maybe i just got lucky and lived next to a station full of car enthusiast police.

andrew420

Yes I thought I would have got a vehicle defect form of all things..............is it worth just calling up the cops shop and sking whats going on and where I stand?? of do I have to do this the hard way?? i.e get proof, take day off and tell my boss I am going to court etc.

red_dog104

I have a huge noisey exhaust on my car and I've never been stopped for it. I was pulled the other week by the plod and they complimented me on the car!! My zaust was fitted in Japan and their noise limits are lower and more strict than over here so I'm not worried and neither should you be! This copper was obviously bored and if you go to court, he will make himself look a complete t*at! In fact, he will probably be advised not to take it that far cause he has no real proof! You should get it tested and then you will know for def but i bet it's ok! Are you sure he wasn't a 'Special Constable'? They are usually over entusiasic about stuff!! (I know, sadly I was one LOL!) Keep us posted as to what happens

marty_t3

Best person to speak to would be a lawyer who deals with motoring stuff. Get advice from someone who knows exactly what your rights are.

From experience, any time i've called the police for advise/info i've got the distinct impression that they couldn't care less. They'll probably just say that it's in the hands of the procurator fiscal now and you should just pay the fine.

My brother had a similar experience when the police acted very unfairly towards him. He asked for, and got, a meeting with some 'seniorish' police guy. The guy started off being very condesending and patronising to my bro (who looks like a scruffy 17 year old). My brother explained that he had just completed the final year of his law degree, ran his own business, and intended to take the matter further. The policemans attitude changed instantly.

He got a written apology for being pulled over 3 times in one night, the excuse being their car 'looked' like one that had been stolen.

beemerboy

you could have shoved his head up your exhaust, while he was taking a gander and cable-tied his wrists to your bumber, then driven around town for an hour or so.

this would have:-
a) muffled the noise
b) saved the taxpayer some money
c) shown the little jumped up tw@t what's what...

dont worry, he'll probably get front line riot patrol soon.

this behaviour gives 'good' old-fashioned coppers a bad image!!!!

Grrr!!

BB

andrew420

I have a work mate who is a special Constable so he will dig out his road traffic book thingy and let me know what the deal is then I will let you know. Cheers for the info so far

Andy (noisey zorst)

andrew420

beemerboy..............I spoze I should have had to burners on as well and BBQ'd his ***.........at 1.2 bar?!

BOB.T

I used to do MOT's, as far as I'm aware there is no noise test for MOT, there is certainly is no equiptment for doing one anyway! However, there is a legal noise limit, 105db I think. I'd tell the guy to **** off personally, there's no way you could judge the db acurately by ear standing next to the car never mind driving past it.... take him to the cleaners![img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

bob

andrew420

well aparently after market non factory exhausts are illegal
Andy

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Errr.... so what about one from Kwik Fit? Although probably to a similar spec they are not a factory exhaust. Or am I totally missing the point?

marty_t3

WOT??? all of them??? I don't believe that for a second. Is that what you're constable mate told you?

If that's the case then how come you can insure you're car with a non-factory exhaust for road use.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Kwik Fit PRICES ought to be illegal, never mind their exhausts!
IMHO, of course,:
Alcazar

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

B*gger! Every time I post on a thread like this, someone else gets in between,. Must learn to type faster.
Alcazar

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

The legal limit is 105db? I have a group A exhaust system on my integrale from the turbo back with no silencers and it always passes the MOT I have never been stopped but when I see the law (except once ) I dip the clutch and coast past apart from that once when they waved me in to stop and I waved at them and carried on going after a 7,000 rpm launch in marlow high street I was never told that there is a legal noise limit and I am sure my car is probably only as loud as a harley or something? Any legal info on this?

Paul

andrew420

see what you reckon I am

http://www.japmobiles.com/gtir/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1739

DavidRB

Do you seriously think a multi-million pound industry in after-market exhausts would exist if they were illegal by definition?

There is a legal noise limit, but as far as I know, it is not part of the MOT test. The European Whole Vehicle Type Approval test requires cars to be below a certain limit (the P1 was allowed an extra decibel because it qualified as a supercar due to its performance!). There are also local council regulations that also govern car stereos and the like.

It is entirely possible that some exhausts are illegal because they contravene noise regulations, but not all.

andrew420

but "these" exhausts would have to be tested right? and at the time of the fixed penalty being issued..........

andrew420

Well spoke to traffic police peeps in Colchester (traffic division for Harwich based there) and it seems as this IS perfectly legal as........................If an exhaust is deemed to be LOUDER than the one it came out of the factory with then it IS ILLEGAL................and whats more this is all in the officers OPINION.......all of this legislation is slanted in favour of the officer and WILL stand up in a Magistrates court (no level of noise required just officers statement that he/she makes. Seems Essex constabulary are clamping down on kids in Novas etc and this is a tool they are using. It is actually a law that can be enforced in England and Wales and is not county specific.

So beware and ****

Andy (noisey zorst)

dsmith

Surely not. Every police officer is deemed to know the volume of every car and be capable of making a subjective decision about relative noise levels ???

FFS [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Deano

andrew420

yer law is in there favour here.................difference I think is none of them actually bother seems its some tool they are using to clamp down on peco bore 12s on festa 1.1's and stuff round Essex or something

Its all down to their opinion and is this is good enough in a court of law.

I never heard of this one before but then again I most of you havent either.

BOB.T

What a bag o sh*te law that is, we may as well do away with all our courts etc, just leave up to the feds........ "well he looked liked a kiddied fiddler to me so I hung him"

Can we not get together and play f*ck, rattle someones window's out with our zorsts

andrew420

hello Bob T hows the fester??

It is cack what I don't get is why they never did this at cruises?? they would be having a field day. Although they did say is also location specific.............so maybe a car park Vs a town centre would mean they should not impose this law or something.

The officer I just spoke to seems to think I got hard done by and put into the same bracket as nova peco bore 12 bunch OR the PC that issues the ticket had a bad day may be as he could have given a vehicle defect form instead of fixed penalty........but was still within his rights doing what he did do.


apparently MOT has nothing to do with it that is just to check the road worthiness of the car..............what it does on the road is another matter. (you can be busted for a stereo that is too loud too)


RE TVR's and Ferrari's
There justification is that if the manufacturer made them then its loud for a reason. So not necessarily the noise level but the fact that its more then than the one the manufacturer would supply.

hypothetical situation;
So a mini that makes 10db standard then 20db with zorst is buggered

a TVR that makes 90db with the loudest zorst TVR can supply is fine.

the Law is a bit of a pig like that it would seem.........

TAZMAN

how do they know that your particular scooby didn't roll out of a factory somewhere with that zorst on?

Also do PC's have regualr hearing checks? how do you know that the PC in question has hearing within the normal range....

failing that find out where the guy lives and lets all park up out side his house and rev the engines like ****...that should deafen him!!

Rich and Mini

Lmao at a Mini doing 20db with aftermarket exhaust !!!!!!! Have you never heard a Mini with ANY type of aftermarket exhaust?? Even standard ones do about 90db!! Mine did 115db on a meter, with just a s/s exhaust, a nice manifold and a cone filter!!!

Fool.

Rich

andrew420

Yes but in my hypothetical little world the mini can be as loud as i want............and its 20db!

Fatman

Tazman - exactly! Scenario: take two Scoobs, one was delivered with PPP (inc. new backbox), one was retro-fitted with the PPP. Identical cars: are they supposed to be able to fine one driver and not the other on the basis of when the exhaust was fitted? Daft...