Politics: what's left and right wing mean?
19 September 2002, 10:14 PM
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I'm not big on poilitics, obviously! and all the left and right wing business has had me confused for ages
I think at 25.5 (it really is 6 months since mi b'day!) it's high time I knew more about it!
Bob
I think at 25.5 (it really is 6 months since mi b'day!) it's high time I knew more about it!
Bob
19 September 2002, 10:33 PM
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Left is Marxism and right is Liberalism, in their purest forms.
Ignore the names of the UK parties as these mean nothing to the pure meanings of the words.
Marxism evolved into Communism and Liberalism was highjacked by Conservitism.
An example of pure left is an Israeli Kibbutz(spl), where everyone works for the good of the group and all benefit. Pure right, the **** party of the mid 1930s to 1945. Only certain people (those deemed fit) are permitted to prosper and those deemed weak, dirty or unworthy killed.
I think. Finished my politics degree in 1993, it's all a haze from too much booze, though.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 12:25:01 AM]
Ignore the names of the UK parties as these mean nothing to the pure meanings of the words.
Marxism evolved into Communism and Liberalism was highjacked by Conservitism.
An example of pure left is an Israeli Kibbutz(spl), where everyone works for the good of the group and all benefit. Pure right, the **** party of the mid 1930s to 1945. Only certain people (those deemed fit) are permitted to prosper and those deemed weak, dirty or unworthy killed.
I think. Finished my politics degree in 1993, it's all a haze from too much booze, though.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 12:25:01 AM]
20 September 2002, 05:40 PM
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Nothing Liberal about the *****. They are just the worst example of the extreme right.
Liberalism is a school of thought that's just right of centre.
The centre is the ground that is held by the Liberal party (just a name) and the Liberal ground is represented by the Conservative party, and many would say New Labour. But new Labour has many left wing members who consider President Blair as having sold (old)Labour down the river.
Fukc, I'm confusing myself.
Liberalism is a school of thought that's just right of centre.
The centre is the ground that is held by the Liberal party (just a name) and the Liberal ground is represented by the Conservative party, and many would say New Labour. But new Labour has many left wing members who consider President Blair as having sold (old)Labour down the river.
Fukc, I'm confusing myself.
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20 September 2002, 06:46 PM
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I feel somebody has missed some of their schooling here father.
The **** party was the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany.
Socialist in anybodys undestanding is left wing, not right.
The **** party was the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany.
Socialist in anybodys undestanding is left wing, not right.
20 September 2002, 07:01 PM
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Tony, you misunderstand.
Any party can give themselves ANY name. It doesn't mean that because they use the word Socialist in their title that they have to follow that particular doctrine.
Socialism is a derivative of Marxism (property is theft, everything is owned by everyone etc, etc). Hardly a theme used by the *****. World domination and use of most of Europe so 'pure' Germans can spread and prosper.
There's nothing more right wing than the repatriation and financial rape of anyone deemed none German - Jews, Gypsies, Blacks even homosexuals. Then, seeing that repatriation would take too long - genocide.
If the BNP changed their name to the Socialist British National Party would it make them left wing? No.
A name is only a name.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 7:04:26 PM]
Any party can give themselves ANY name. It doesn't mean that because they use the word Socialist in their title that they have to follow that particular doctrine.
Socialism is a derivative of Marxism (property is theft, everything is owned by everyone etc, etc). Hardly a theme used by the *****. World domination and use of most of Europe so 'pure' Germans can spread and prosper.
There's nothing more right wing than the repatriation and financial rape of anyone deemed none German - Jews, Gypsies, Blacks even homosexuals. Then, seeing that repatriation would take too long - genocide.
If the BNP changed their name to the Socialist British National Party would it make them left wing? No.
A name is only a name.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 7:04:26 PM]
20 September 2002, 07:35 PM
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I think of the political spectrum not unlike a horseshoe. The far left and the far right are not so far removed. (e.g. Stalin & Hitler). halfway down each side of the horseshoe are communism and hard edged capitalism. Socialism and Conservatism kinda fill the gaps to the centre.
Our political parties are in a very narrow band near the top/middle of the horseshoe and there is a LOT of crossover. labour very slightly to the left and tories very slightly to the right and the lib dems somewhere up their own *****.
Our political parties are in a very narrow band near the top/middle of the horseshoe and there is a LOT of crossover. labour very slightly to the left and tories very slightly to the right and the lib dems somewhere up their own *****.
20 September 2002, 07:40 PM
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Nice analogy!
Extremes to the left or right have many major similarities - namely the suppression of their people(s).
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 7:40:56 PM]
Extremes to the left or right have many major similarities - namely the suppression of their people(s).
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/20/2002 7:40:56 PM]
20 September 2002, 10:43 PM
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Sorry, I would say you are confusing the theory with the practice. Communism is not suppression of the people, it is all people being equal. BUT in practice, because we are humans not robots, to do that you have to kill or jail anyone who wants to be better than anyone else.
Now THAT would put an end to the "my car's faster than yours" threads pretty quickly...
Now THAT would put an end to the "my car's faster than yours" threads pretty quickly...
20 September 2002, 10:47 PM
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Apology accepted.
I never said communism was the suppression of people. I said that extreme examples of either left or right wing regimes tend to display this.
I never said communism was the suppression of people. I said that extreme examples of either left or right wing regimes tend to display this.
20 September 2002, 10:56 PM
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Lets not forget the hypocrisy of the Soviet communists - "Some of us are more equal than others".
At least the right are unashamedly capitalists.
The (new) Labour party in this country are quite prepared to throw all of their principles out of the window to win an election.
At least you knew where you were with Old Labour. Strikes crippling industry etc. New Labour are traitors to the Socialist cause. Not that I agree with socialism. I personally think that socialism is a charter for lethargy. Why work hard as a professional X when some street cleaner gets the same dosh.
Much as the tree huggers loathe capitalists, this country would be dead if it wasn't for the wealth generators (who are also the top bracket tax payers).
IMNSHO, Socialism = bad, blatant greed (capitalism) = good.
[Edited by Jerome - 9/20/2002 10:58:13 PM]
[Edited by Jerome - 9/20/2002 11:03:23 PM]
At least the right are unashamedly capitalists.
The (new) Labour party in this country are quite prepared to throw all of their principles out of the window to win an election.
At least you knew where you were with Old Labour. Strikes crippling industry etc. New Labour are traitors to the Socialist cause. Not that I agree with socialism. I personally think that socialism is a charter for lethargy. Why work hard as a professional X when some street cleaner gets the same dosh.
Much as the tree huggers loathe capitalists, this country would be dead if it wasn't for the wealth generators (who are also the top bracket tax payers).
IMNSHO, Socialism = bad, blatant greed (capitalism) = good.
[Edited by Jerome - 9/20/2002 10:58:13 PM]
[Edited by Jerome - 9/20/2002 11:03:23 PM]
20 September 2002, 11:20 PM
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Well, I'd like to say that's made things a lot clearer but my brain seems to have stopped processing new information for today
What I have sussed so far seems to be...each party has different ways of thinking about stuff but when they get to the extremes they both have to start killing folk
Many thanks for trying, I guess it's not an easy subject, I'm more used to smashing things in bits to see how they work
Cheers, Bob
What I have sussed so far seems to be...each party has different ways of thinking about stuff but when they get to the extremes they both have to start killing folk
Many thanks for trying, I guess it's not an easy subject, I'm more used to smashing things in bits to see how they work
Cheers, Bob
21 September 2002, 12:11 AM
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You having a laugh, Bob?
Mayor of London. His main forte is making London's roads more narrow - causing even more congestion, and then having the cheek to implement a congestion charge!
He talks a good improvement but delivers none - thus far, anyway.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/21/2002 12:12:51 AM]
Mayor of London. His main forte is making London's roads more narrow - causing even more congestion, and then having the cheek to implement a congestion charge!
He talks a good improvement but delivers none - thus far, anyway.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/21/2002 12:12:51 AM]
21 September 2002, 06:43 AM
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Oh dear oh dear, this is the trouble with politics in this country Bob.T, fatherpierre telling people they don't understand.
Father and people like him make sweeping generisled statements based on what?
A name is very important, you make two statements, one, nothing in a name, the german **** party was right wing???????
You are confusing racsium with socialisum.
Repatritation of non-germans, bit hard with Jews and Gypsies??
You seem to forget one thing, Hitler was not German.
The BNP's policies are that of nationalisum, hence the name, see its not that hard. At present they go no further with any mission statement as they see their role as a pressure group rather than potential government.
If I am confussed, then I hope the people who are marking my MSc in the life of Eduard Schulte paper are equally confussed. (The German creditied with bringing the Holocurst to the attention of the Alies)
Basically BOB T go and get yourself some books on post war UK politics, you can get them in loot from hard up ex-students, and make your own mind up.
Father and people like him make sweeping generisled statements based on what?
A name is very important, you make two statements, one, nothing in a name, the german **** party was right wing???????
You are confusing racsium with socialisum.
Repatritation of non-germans, bit hard with Jews and Gypsies??
You seem to forget one thing, Hitler was not German.
The BNP's policies are that of nationalisum, hence the name, see its not that hard. At present they go no further with any mission statement as they see their role as a pressure group rather than potential government.
If I am confussed, then I hope the people who are marking my MSc in the life of Eduard Schulte paper are equally confussed. (The German creditied with bringing the Holocurst to the attention of the Alies)
Basically BOB T go and get yourself some books on post war UK politics, you can get them in loot from hard up ex-students, and make your own mind up.
21 September 2002, 12:25 PM
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Lol @ Pete
BOB T, Check out what paper pople read to find out their leanings
Guardian, Mirror, left wing
Mail Telegraph, Express, right wing
No paper at all, anarchist or broke
Massive overgeneralisation I know
BOB T, Check out what paper pople read to find out their leanings
Guardian, Mirror, left wing
Mail Telegraph, Express, right wing
No paper at all, anarchist or broke
Massive overgeneralisation I know
21 September 2002, 01:22 PM
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Oh Tony............
You can't even spell Holocaust!
As for telling people they don't understand - I merely was explaining the fact that a name or tag doesn't mean anything.
From your post it would seem that the BNP gets your cross in the box.
If the ***** weren't right wing then what were they? Middle ground, live and let live hippies?
And you can't get an MSc in anything other than scientific subjects. You can only get a BA or MA.
You can't even spell Holocaust!
As for telling people they don't understand - I merely was explaining the fact that a name or tag doesn't mean anything.
From your post it would seem that the BNP gets your cross in the box.
If the ***** weren't right wing then what were they? Middle ground, live and let live hippies?
And you can't get an MSc in anything other than scientific subjects. You can only get a BA or MA.
21 September 2002, 01:27 PM
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And Tony, sorry to go on, it's 'the **** party WERE right wing', not 'WAS right wing'. Simple English!
I'm guessing school may have been a scary for you!
I'm guessing school may have been a scary for you!
21 September 2002, 02:22 PM
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Need to make a comment on the 'suppresion of the people' being linked to Communism. Communism as Doctrine is in fact the opposite of suppression. The real issue with the main implementations of Communism we've seen globally possibly with the exception of Cuba have been Dicatorships, which is in effect an athema for true Marxists, who really do not require leadership as everytyhing is run by the people for the people,in its simplest term its a collection of people working for the 'COMMON' good with committee type decisions.
However in the real world the weakness in the 'Science' of this type of political regime is that people require personal growth and power to be motivated. Therefore one of two thins happen. General apathy as no-one is driven to produce more than the minimum required as over production produces zero reward either in materialistic gain or in power/recognition.
Some people can cope without the trappings of materialism and would be able to function within a Marxist environment, however the vast majority cannot and people are naturally ambitious.
Regards
Cammy
BTW this is based on indoctrination at home as a youngster on Clydeside...
However in the real world the weakness in the 'Science' of this type of political regime is that people require personal growth and power to be motivated. Therefore one of two thins happen. General apathy as no-one is driven to produce more than the minimum required as over production produces zero reward either in materialistic gain or in power/recognition.
Some people can cope without the trappings of materialism and would be able to function within a Marxist environment, however the vast majority cannot and people are naturally ambitious.
Regards
Cammy
BTW this is based on indoctrination at home as a youngster on Clydeside...
21 September 2002, 02:29 PM
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You're actually citing Marxism there.
Communism is a derivative of Marxism, but with a 'party' to oversee it, and a party leader.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/21/2002 2:33:26 PM]
Communism is a derivative of Marxism, but with a 'party' to oversee it, and a party leader.
[Edited by fatherpierre - 9/21/2002 2:33:26 PM]
21 September 2002, 02:36 PM
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allright guys, chill out!
I was aware that Ken L was Mayor, I just don't really follow what he's doing, I'm from Yorkshire and don't often visit London village
I guess I was looking for a simple answer but it seems obvious now that there just isn't one but then the world would be a boring place if it were that simple!
So, in terms of sides, not ism's, which way round are our parties and are the Liberals somewhere in the middle?
Then, which side do the likes of the IRA and Bin Laden come from? Then if they are on the same side as (insert British party here) are there any similarities?
Bob
I was aware that Ken L was Mayor, I just don't really follow what he's doing, I'm from Yorkshire and don't often visit London village
I guess I was looking for a simple answer but it seems obvious now that there just isn't one but then the world would be a boring place if it were that simple!
So, in terms of sides, not ism's, which way round are our parties and are the Liberals somewhere in the middle?
Then, which side do the likes of the IRA and Bin Laden come from? Then if they are on the same side as (insert British party here) are there any similarities?
Bob