TelBoy

Well, i've always had me doubts, having read bits and pieces over the years about several inconsistencies, but last night's Channel 5 programme brought them all together.

And it really could be true - it might never have happened. If you look objectively at the evidence, you can easily see where the conspiracists are coming from.

The ONLY thing which makes me doubtful, is that none of the astronauts who were supposed to have gone to the moon have ever come out and confessed it was a hoax. And let's face it, they could earn mega-millions for their story.

Just imagine if it was ever proved it never happened...

MarkO

Conspiracy theory bollocks.

Of course they landed on the moon.....

TelBoy

Because....?

CrisPDuk

The one big point that the conspiracy theorists always omit, but has been pointed out before.

The Moon Shots were done at the height of the Cold War, the Russians had satellite tracking equipment that even then was generally acknowledged to be better than NASA's.

Would they not have blown the whistle on a large scale if they couldn't track the Apollos?

TelBoy

No-one's doubting they got very close to the Moon, in fact the doubters are happy to believe that the Apollo capsules circled close to the Moon. But no satellite tracking device could prove one way or the other whether the Lunar Maodules made the final journey down to the Moon surface. Launching a rocket is one thing, doing the whole surface landing bit is a whole different ballgame.

In fact, it's the Cold War that makes the whole spectre of a hoax that much more likely. After all, the unofficial "winner" of the Cold War was seen as the one who could get a man on the Moon first. There are even some respected scientists today who say the technology to get a man on the Moon only just exists today, let alone in 1969/1970...

jasey

If it's a hoax how did they get the flag up there ?

CrisPDuk

But you do have to bear in mind that the technology of the sixties & seventies wasn't hamstrung by the PC, health & safety led, 'where there's a blame there's a claim' culture of today.

They tended to just give it a go, and if it didn't work and somebody got killed, what the hell, America's full of mindless idiots who'll get in the next one, what does it matter if we lose a few

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Why is anybody doubting they landed on the moon?? and who cares anyway???

TelBoy

Jasey, how did they get the flag where? Onto a "moonscape" in Area 51? Pretty easily i'd say.

The question is, how did they get a flag to flutter in a breeze on the Moon, as on Apollo 16, when there's absolutely no wind on the Moon's surface?

Why did the landing pads of the Lunar Modules not have a speck of Moon dust on them in photographs, when the astronauts described the surface as "powdery"?

Why do the shadows on various Moon photos point in different directions? Etc etc....

MarkO

Not sure about the dust, but I'm certain that there's a valid explaination - particularly as it's a vacuum up there.

But most of the claims about the photos/shadows have been put down to the fact that the people analysing the pictures haven't taken into account the fact that most pictures were taken with fisheye lenses, which throw the shadows away from one another.

MarkO

If you really don't believe it, try searching for "moon landing hoax" on google. I came up with about 30 pages straight away which provide fairly plausible explanations for any of the arguments put forward...

SL2

If it was a hoax then why not just do it once. Why go back and land 5 more times.

Apollo 11
Launched 16 July 1969
Landed on Moon 20 July 1969
Sea of Tranquility
Returned to Earth 24 July 1969

Apollo 12
Launched 14 November 1969
Landed on Moon 19 November 1969
Ocean of Storms
Returned to Earth 24 November 1969

Apollo 13
Launched 11 April 1970
Lunar Flyby and Return
Malfunction forced cancellation of lunar landing
Returned to Earth 17 April 1970

Apollo 14
Launched 31 January 1971
Landed on Moon 5 February 1971
Fra Mauro
Returned to Earth 9 February 1971

Apollo 15
Launched 26 July 1971
Landed on Moon 30 July 1971
Hadley Rille
Returned to Earth 7 August 1971

Apollo 16
Launched 16 April 1972
Landed on Moon 20 April 1972
Descartes
Returned to Earth 27 April 1972

Apollo 17
Launched 07 December 1972
Landed on Moon 11 December 1972
Taurus-Littrow
Returned to Earth 19 December 1972

TelBoy

Mark, fair point, i've never seen anyone replicate the effects of a fisheye lens to show whether you can get this effect.
Still doesn't explain why the reference crosses "disappear" behind certain pieces of equipment, flags, astronauts and so on. A forensic lab in 2002 would have a field day.

Wurzel, sorry that one of mankind's supposedly biggest achievements doesn't interest you. Maybe there's another thread nearby which you could contibute positively to?

TelBoy

SL2,

Again, fair point. Don't get me wrong, i WANT to believe it happened, but never in history has one organisation (NASA) had such a monopoly over the information surrounding such an event, to the extent that they COULD have manipulated it any way they wanted.

If the Japanese probe in two years' time doesn't find those flags, there will be an awful lot of explaining to do...

jasey

Tel / Wurzel - the bird killing one is much better

Grottbags

The flag was not fluttering, it was being held and moved by an astronaut in all the shots I saw last night. It also had a big stick along the top edge to keep it stuck out and a load of ball bearings or something in the bottom edge to keep it hanging down.

I can't honestly believe someone *actually* believes something they saw on Channel 5

TelBoy

True. After all, it wasn't in The Sun this morning, which would have confirmed everything.

At least i didn't say "really?" when someone told me the word gullible had been removed from the dictionary...

Mickle

What about the radiation?

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Telboy, it's not that I am not interested in mans greatest achievement but why are you disputing it? just cos someone said it was a hoax everyone jumps on the bandwagon and accepts it or feels the need to question it. Somebody somewhere is making money out of this and people like you are only feeding it.

MarkO

What about what radiation?

Mickle

The last part of the Channel 5 programme about the VanAllen belts and that the astronauts wouldn't be able to survive the radiation with their tin foil suits

TelBoy

Wurz, why am i disputing it? Cos i can!! Free country. Nobody's making a bean out of me for questioning it.

I just think it would be astounding if something like this was found to be a hoax. There is SO much we probably aren't told, and this could be the biggest scoop of them all.

Mickle - yup. There are so many other questions as well. The stars missing in photograhs, the detail visible in supposedly pitch-black Moon shadow, etc etc...

Grottbags

I think what you have to remember is that the moon landings happened during the cold war. The Americans were bound to alter some images that came back to protect secret information etc. Why on earth shouldn't they? They were the ones who got there, were spending their money and risking their lives. They have a right to let us *and the Russians* see what they want us to see.

I don't recall anyone from NASA saying the suits were not radiation proof. If they weren't, how come more astronauts haven't died of growing a third head or something?

And as for the Japanese, they're crazy anyway

Comedy_Gaz

Hi there.

TelBoy;

On a dark but cloudless night go and stand underneath a street light and look at the stars. Actually, don't bother, because you can't see them. The street light is too bright. Its the same on the moon where the street light is hte sun.
DYS??

Comedy_Gaz

Also, Telboy;

The shadows happen here on eath too. Its to do with height of the objects that are causing the shadows. There isnt too much point arguing whether moon landings were fake or not, because everything that was on CH5 can be explained.

Mark Jackson

Next, you will be saying that Big Brother is real and theyre not all actors !

hades

What about the radiation? I think I am correct in saying that the radiation is no worse on the moon than once you've attained a certain altitude. If the radiation makes it impossible to get up to that height, wouldn't that therefore imply that all manned spaceflight (at least all flight beyond the van allen belts) is a fraud? Am happy to be corrected if someone knows better.

I attended some lecture by one of the top conspiracy theorists. All very interesting, difficult to prove either way, but I still think there were too many people involved for it to be conspiracy and the story to have not got out by now.

Only way we can prove it is to go back. How many PSI would you need to dial up on a Dawes Device to in order to achieve escape velocity (about 7 miles per second IIRC), or would John need to develop a new TEK 4?

scrappydoo

...

sasman

SO DO ASTRONAUNTS HAVE 2 HEADS TO START WITH

Devil's Refugee

We'll all find out soon enough.
The Chinese are launching a probe to the moon as are the Europeans, which the latter is specifically doing a recon of the moon landing areas.

Time will tell.