Edinburgh traffic charges - last chance to vote
30 July 2002, 11:15 AM
#1
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Would have posted in Scotland, but I never read that 
Polls close tomorrow (like it will matter) but you can at least vote without moving from your computer.
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/traffic/HYS/page3.html
Please forward to everyone you know in Edinburgh who is not a sandal wearing beardy cycling type.
And no it's not a good idea. The councillors will just spend it on holidays to Libya or lezzy midget uni-cycling workshops
Cheers
FJ
Polls close tomorrow (like it will matter) but you can at least vote without moving from your computer.
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/traffic/HYS/page3.html
Please forward to everyone you know in Edinburgh who is not a sandal wearing beardy cycling type.
And no it's not a good idea. The councillors will just spend it on holidays to Libya or lezzy midget uni-cycling workshops
Cheers
FJ
30 July 2002, 11:24 AM
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Interesting, this, as I'm planning to move near Edinburgh (and work in Edinburgh) in the next 6 months.
I've voted for the most expensive option - max charging - on the basis that if it means I get a car-free drive into the city, I'm more than happy to pay £10 a week.
[Edited by MarkO - 7/30/2002 11:24:48 AM]
I've voted for the most expensive option - max charging - on the basis that if it means I get a car-free drive into the city, I'm more than happy to pay £10 a week.
[Edited by MarkO - 7/30/2002 11:24:48 AM]
30 July 2002, 12:25 PM
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I don't think charging will change things much anyway.
There will still be people whose company's will pay for the charges, and we'll still have the congestion.
Also, people these days are so darn lazy! They drive everywhere - people should be thinking about the environment as well as their own convenience....
When I was a kid (1970's) we used to walk to school - now thew roads are clogged up in the mornings with Mumsy taking them in the 4WD to the school's front door. I realise it's a safety thing as well, but statistically, are there more child pervs around now than there were in the 70's?
Also - with the rise in car ownership in the last 20 years, people are too lazy to use public transport cos it doesn't suit them. Well, adapt!! Car journey may take 10 mins, and bus 15-20 mins, but what is 5-10 minutes addition!!! Lazy bu**ers........
Oh, and they also say "I'd get wet using public transport having to stand at windy, wet bus-stops" - get a life!!!! Live a little - it will do you no harm.
Argh!
Argh 2!!!
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 12:26:12 PM]
There will still be people whose company's will pay for the charges, and we'll still have the congestion.
Also, people these days are so darn lazy! They drive everywhere - people should be thinking about the environment as well as their own convenience....
When I was a kid (1970's) we used to walk to school - now thew roads are clogged up in the mornings with Mumsy taking them in the 4WD to the school's front door. I realise it's a safety thing as well, but statistically, are there more child pervs around now than there were in the 70's?
Also - with the rise in car ownership in the last 20 years, people are too lazy to use public transport cos it doesn't suit them. Well, adapt!! Car journey may take 10 mins, and bus 15-20 mins, but what is 5-10 minutes addition!!! Lazy bu**ers........
Oh, and they also say "I'd get wet using public transport having to stand at windy, wet bus-stops" - get a life!!!! Live a little - it will do you no harm.
Argh!
Argh 2!!!
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 12:26:12 PM]
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30 July 2002, 12:28 PM
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I realise it's a safety thing as well, but statistically, are there more child pervs around now than there were in the 70's?
30 July 2002, 12:29 PM
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We don't want your sort here in Edinburgh :-)
Move to Glasgow instead :-)))))))))
Move to Glasgow instead :-)))))))))
30 July 2002, 01:18 PM
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Car drivers should accept their rightful position at the very bottom of the urban transport hierarchy.
In an **URBAN** environment, why should car drivers have any priority at all?
Why anyone expects to be treated with priority because they've chosen to disable themselves with a ton of metal is utterly beyond me.
In an **URBAN** environment, why should car drivers have any priority at all?
Why anyone expects to be treated with priority because they've chosen to disable themselves with a ton of metal is utterly beyond me.
30 July 2002, 01:40 PM
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imlach,
You obviously haven't tried using a bus recently
Buses are full of fat, smelly people who insist of eating 40 cloves of garlic a day.
<rant mode on>
Most bus journey's add a huge amount of time to a journey otherwise taken by car. Not included waiting for them. Further more, many journeys require you to change buses 2 or 3 times. Here in the Smoke, buses carry (on average) 9 passengers, but cause 128 times more polution than the average car.
Also, the underground alternative here takes longer than using a car - even in the "congested" rush hour. I can drive into work in 25 minutes, by tube it is *at least* 45 minutes (on a good day) and by bus it would be well over an hour. I, personally, wouldn't risk cycling to work every day in this country either. The only reason I don't drive is because it would cost me £12.50 per day to park near work.
Until public transport is a viable alternative to the car - regardless of congestion charges or the environmental impact - people will continue to use their cars.
<rant mode off>
You obviously haven't tried using a bus recently
Buses are full of fat, smelly people who insist of eating 40 cloves of garlic a day.
<rant mode on>
Most bus journey's add a huge amount of time to a journey otherwise taken by car. Not included waiting for them. Further more, many journeys require you to change buses 2 or 3 times. Here in the Smoke, buses carry (on average) 9 passengers, but cause 128 times more polution than the average car.
Also, the underground alternative here takes longer than using a car - even in the "congested" rush hour. I can drive into work in 25 minutes, by tube it is *at least* 45 minutes (on a good day) and by bus it would be well over an hour. I, personally, wouldn't risk cycling to work every day in this country either. The only reason I don't drive is because it would cost me £12.50 per day to park near work.
Until public transport is a viable alternative to the car - regardless of congestion charges or the environmental impact - people will continue to use their cars.
<rant mode off>
30 July 2002, 01:48 PM
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I have used a bus recently - I realise every city is different and every city has different public transport scenarios.....
HOWEVER, in a lot of cases, people are using their cars unnecessarily in an urban environment - I know it is far too easy to jump in your car and drive, but people in the UK need to get off their lardy asses and walk/cycle/do a bit of exercise...
It's good for the environment...it's good for the individual....it saves money....
How exactly did people survive in the previous thousands of years compared to the last 30-40 where car ownership has rocketed - stand back and think about it.....
Also, public transport will NEVER be a viable alternative to the car to very many people - people need to accept a small increase in travel time - is that too much to ask?
I know people I work with who live outside a direct & very frequent bus route to work, yet they STILL won't use the bus.
So what WILL make them use it???????
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 1:56:43 PM]
HOWEVER, in a lot of cases, people are using their cars unnecessarily in an urban environment - I know it is far too easy to jump in your car and drive, but people in the UK need to get off their lardy asses and walk/cycle/do a bit of exercise...
It's good for the environment...it's good for the individual....it saves money....
How exactly did people survive in the previous thousands of years compared to the last 30-40 where car ownership has rocketed - stand back and think about it.....
Also, public transport will NEVER be a viable alternative to the car to very many people - people need to accept a small increase in travel time - is that too much to ask?
I know people I work with who live outside a direct & very frequent bus route to work, yet they STILL won't use the bus.
So what WILL make them use it???????
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 1:56:43 PM]
30 July 2002, 02:01 PM
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Imlach - a 20 mile cycle to work - you lentil muncher
The roads are so much quieter during the school holidays it's great - the solution is therefore to ban kids.
Mind you, the festival starts about now - so it's time to share the jams with gobby southern luvvy types and german ambulances.
The roads are so much quieter during the school holidays it's great - the solution is therefore to ban kids.
Mind you, the festival starts about now - so it's time to share the jams with gobby southern luvvy types and german ambulances.
30 July 2002, 02:36 PM
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[rantmode]
It's not usually a case of an extra 5 mins on a bus though.
It takes me over an hour and at least 1 change to get to work by bus, and that's if they come !! It takes between 10 and 15 mins by car. Getting home is even worse - it took me over 2 hours once (I walked it as no buses turned up !!).
I will potentially be charged 2 quid to get home from work, as I work outside the bypass, and live inside it !! Maybe I'll end up parking on Lanark Road and getting a bus up the final 2 miles !! How will that help ease congestion ??
I have a colleague who cycles most days (he's a very kean cyclist who has cycled coast to coast across America) but even he says that he couldn't do it every day. Too dangerous and too damn wet most of the time ! (fortunately for me (as I share an office with him) he doesn't eat many lentils !)
[/rantmode]
It's not usually a case of an extra 5 mins on a bus though.
It takes me over an hour and at least 1 change to get to work by bus, and that's if they come !! It takes between 10 and 15 mins by car. Getting home is even worse - it took me over 2 hours once (I walked it as no buses turned up !!).
I will potentially be charged 2 quid to get home from work, as I work outside the bypass, and live inside it !! Maybe I'll end up parking on Lanark Road and getting a bus up the final 2 miles !! How will that help ease congestion ??
I have a colleague who cycles most days (he's a very kean cyclist who has cycled coast to coast across America) but even he says that he couldn't do it every day. Too dangerous and too damn wet most of the time ! (fortunately for me (as I share an office with him) he doesn't eat many lentils
!)[/rantmode]
30 July 2002, 02:39 PM
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p.s. I'm against the idea of charging too in case you hadn't guessed. Do we not get penalised enough with our huge fuel taxes ??
Perhaps I'd be more for it if I believed the money would be used for better public transport etc.... but how likely is that to happen ??
Perhaps I'd be more for it if I believed the money would be used for better public transport etc.... but how likely is that to happen ??
30 July 2002, 02:39 PM
#18
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I think it would be a good idea if it made people think twice about taking the car into the centre.
I'd be quite happy to take public transport, in fact if I'm popping-in to the centre from work (Livingston), then it's quicker and easier just to take the train (15min journey).
The biggest hassle for me is getting from home to work. I only live 30 miles away from Edinburgh (along the M8) and although there is a train service from my village to Edinburgh, it takes feckin ages and you can never get a seat. It's an hour to cover 30-miles
and the service is only once an hour. It only takes 35-45mins by car, I can leave whenever I want and I don't have to stand all the way.
I even tried using the train and cycling part of the way into work, but it added an hour to my commute every day just hanging around waiting on the train.
And if todays weather in sunny West Lothian is anything to go by, then I'll leave my mountain bike at home.
It would take a faster and more frequent public transport system to get me out of my car (oh and better weather).
Stefan
I'd be quite happy to take public transport, in fact if I'm popping-in to the centre from work (Livingston), then it's quicker and easier just to take the train (15min journey).
The biggest hassle for me is getting from home to work. I only live 30 miles away from Edinburgh (along the M8) and although there is a train service from my village to Edinburgh, it takes feckin ages and you can never get a seat. It's an hour to cover 30-miles
and the service is only once an hour. It only takes 35-45mins by car, I can leave whenever I want and I don't have to stand all the way.I even tried using the train and cycling part of the way into work, but it added an hour to my commute every day just hanging around waiting on the train.
And if todays weather in sunny West Lothian is anything to go by, then I'll leave my mountain bike at home.
It would take a faster and more frequent public transport system to get me out of my car (oh and better weather).
Stefan
30 July 2002, 02:43 PM
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For people that work in the centre of a city, how about a bit of a compromise - Park and Ride? You have the convenience of using your car, to get most of the way there, then use a regular bus service to quickly get you into the city centre.
I originally come from Nottingham and I think the park and ride system there is excellent. It also meant that on the occassions where I needed to drive into the city centre (for example, to buy something to large to take on the bus) there was not too much in the way of congestion.
However, it has to be done properly. In Reading, the Park and Ride car park floods after heavy rain (as in "watch you car get washed away" floods), and you are charged per person, not per car, which means if you have more than two people in the car, it is probably cheaper to use the town centre.
I originally come from Nottingham and I think the park and ride system there is excellent. It also meant that on the occassions where I needed to drive into the city centre (for example, to buy something to large to take on the bus) there was not too much in the way of congestion.
However, it has to be done properly. In Reading, the Park and Ride car park floods after heavy rain (as in "watch you car get washed away" floods), and you are charged per person, not per car, which means if you have more than two people in the car, it is probably cheaper to use the town centre.
30 July 2002, 03:01 PM
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Marko, I trust you'll buy somewhere near a railway station then so that you don't need to bring your car into Edinburgh :-))))))
So I shall be wafting into the city in Jaguar-powered air-conditioned leather-seated luxury, oblivious of the environment and all others around me.
30 July 2002, 03:06 PM
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MarkO - they are currently investigating rebuilding the Borders route....
I hope they do, as the area to the south of Edinburgh is currently badly served by public transport.
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:06:53 PM]
I hope they do, as the area to the south of Edinburgh is currently badly served by public transport.
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:06:53 PM]
30 July 2002, 03:10 PM
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I do admit that public transport does need a lot of improvements, but my point was that however good you make it, some will still not use it.
Frequency & reliability of trains should be increased ASAP.
Age old story of demand though I suppose - can Scotrail afford to meet demand at rush hour (ie, not enough rolling stock?) and run a more empty servive at profit at other times?
Privatisation prevents a comprehensive service surely?
Oops - opened a can of worms here!!!!
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:10:57 PM]
Frequency & reliability of trains should be increased ASAP.
Age old story of demand though I suppose - can Scotrail afford to meet demand at rush hour (ie, not enough rolling stock?) and run a more empty servive at profit at other times?
Privatisation prevents a comprehensive service surely?
Oops - opened a can of worms here!!!!
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:10:57 PM]
30 July 2002, 03:16 PM
#23
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MarkO,
The train service on the East Coast and the Borders is terrible. I wanted to take the train from my work to Penicuik (25-mile trip).
Turns out that no trains go anywhere near Penicuik, and I'd have to get the train to Edinburgh, then change over to a bus.
So, do I take an hour long trip ala "planes, trains & automobiles" or just jump in the car and be there in 20-mins.
And the Government wonder why so many people take the car.
Trouble is it's the same problem wherever you go. I spent two-weeks in the Czech Republic and Prague had a great public trasport system. It's very cheap, the trams and metro gets you everywhere you need to go and they're every 10/15mins.
Once you get out of the main cities and into the sticks, then your down to one Bus service per day in some places
The problem is no-one wants to subsidise low-volume non-profit routes in order to keep everyone happy. They'll spend money on the major towns and screw everyone else who happens to enjoy the countryside.
Stefan
The train service on the East Coast and the Borders is terrible. I wanted to take the train from my work to Penicuik (25-mile trip).
Turns out that no trains go anywhere near Penicuik, and I'd have to get the train to Edinburgh, then change over to a bus.
So, do I take an hour long trip ala "planes, trains & automobiles" or just jump in the car and be there in 20-mins.
And the Government wonder why so many people take the car.
Trouble is it's the same problem wherever you go. I spent two-weeks in the Czech Republic and Prague had a great public trasport system. It's very cheap, the trams and metro gets you everywhere you need to go and they're every 10/15mins.
Once you get out of the main cities and into the sticks, then your down to one Bus service per day in some places
The problem is no-one wants to subsidise low-volume non-profit routes in order to keep everyone happy. They'll spend money on the major towns and screw everyone else who happens to enjoy the countryside.
Stefan
30 July 2002, 03:17 PM
#24
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by the way, I cycle every day, and in the last week, I have got wet twice (yesterday morning, and last Tue morning). Considering our unusually wet weather, that's not too bad.
On average, if you cycled to work every day all summer, you'd only get wet (on average) 6 times or something......I've read that stat before.
Anyway, you get sweaty when you cycle anyway, so I have a shower anyway - so makes little difference if I get wet or not.
I realise most are not as mad as me and don't expect others to be as dedicated as me!!!
On average, if you cycled to work every day all summer, you'd only get wet (on average) 6 times or something......I've read that stat before.
Anyway, you get sweaty when you cycle anyway, so I have a shower anyway - so makes little difference if I get wet or not.
I realise most are not as mad as me and don't expect others to be as dedicated as me!!!
30 July 2002, 03:19 PM
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Please remember this thread was mainly about "urban" travel - east lothian to Penicuik I'd excuse a car journey as it is non-urban.
However, once a Borders rail route is resurrected, it'd be nice to have the choice/options.....
However, once a Borders rail route is resurrected, it'd be nice to have the choice/options.....
30 July 2002, 03:20 PM
#26
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Imlach, where the heck do you cycle to/from.
My car's got wet almost everyday this week going from Motherwell to Livingston. If I only got wet 6 times all summer I'd by cycling home tonight.
I run everynight too and if I don't get wet a least 3 times a week or have to spend the other 4 running through 3 inches of mud, it wouldn't feel right
Stefan
My car's got wet almost everyday this week going from Motherwell to Livingston. If I only got wet 6 times all summer I'd by cycling home tonight.
I run everynight too and if I don't get wet a least 3 times a week or have to spend the other 4 running through 3 inches of mud, it wouldn't feel right
Stefan
30 July 2002, 03:22 PM
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Craiglockhart to South Queensferry & back (10 miles each way).
Seriously, I've only been wet on the days I mentioned - although looks like it might rain on way home tonight.....
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:24:14 PM]
Seriously, I've only been wet on the days I mentioned - although looks like it might rain on way home tonight.....
[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 3:24:14 PM]
30 July 2002, 03:30 PM
#28
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Well, it's been raining for nearly 3 hours here in Livingston and we've had thunder and lightning for almost 2.
OK, even for this part of the world it's bizarre, but I've a 60-mile round trip by bike, so don't fancy my chanced of not getting wet.
Maybe it's time I moved
Stefan
OK, even for this part of the world it's bizarre, but I've a 60-mile round trip by bike, so don't fancy my chanced of not getting wet.
Maybe it's time I moved
Stefan
30 July 2002, 03:40 PM
#29
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Whatever just vote will ya.
Imlach, I'll get a group buy on pile cream sorted for you cycling types if you vote against the charges
When I move (almost next door to Imlach) I will be around a mile from work. Doubt I'll start cycling tho, there's a nasty hill in between - still thinking about getting an E55 merc - assuming the contract gets renewed come September
I vote for air conditioned, leather arsed wafting missus.
Imlach, I'll get a group buy on pile cream sorted for you cycling types if you vote against the charges
When I move (almost next door to Imlach) I will be around a mile from work. Doubt I'll start cycling tho, there's a nasty hill in between
- still thinking about getting an E55 merc - assuming the contract gets renewed come September I vote for air conditioned, leather arsed wafting
missus.
30 July 2002, 03:45 PM
#30
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Father jack - I have not voted yet. Still not sure which to vote.
What is tbe big hill inbetween your work and you btw?
Read this (from another cyclist at my work - and you will see that we are not for it either!).
As an Edinburgh resident I responded to this survey by mail. I think it is pretty biased in favour of the Council's preferred option (green) for raising the most money. There is a major issue regarding the additional public funding that is expected to be added to the two charging options, but this is not shown as available for the non-charging (red) option. Unless this extra funding is being-fenced for council's adopting charging, then the whole survey is bogus as the non-charging option does not include this extra money.
Also the non-charging option is very much played down and some of the low cost improvement schemes included with the charging options are missing. And for those of you not totally innumerate, the graphs showing the impact of the three schemes have NO SCALE. In other words, the effects of the charging may have a very little or very large impact. It is up to you to guess.
In summary, this is a dumbed down attempt to bias people to vote in favour of the "big green improvement" option without a fair consideration of the alternatives or of the impact that charging would have on city centre businesses. I don't want to live in a city devoid of facilities due to a combination of crap public transport and road pricing.
What is tbe big hill inbetween your work and you btw?
Read this (from another cyclist at my work - and you will see that we are not for it either!).
As an Edinburgh resident I responded to this survey by mail. I think it is pretty biased in favour of the Council's preferred option (green) for raising the most money. There is a major issue regarding the additional public funding that is expected to be added to the two charging options, but this is not shown as available for the non-charging (red) option. Unless this extra funding is being-fenced for council's adopting charging, then the whole survey is bogus as the non-charging option does not include this extra money.
Also the non-charging option is very much played down and some of the low cost improvement schemes included with the charging options are missing. And for those of you not totally innumerate, the graphs showing the impact of the three schemes have NO SCALE. In other words, the effects of the charging may have a very little or very large impact. It is up to you to guess.
In summary, this is a dumbed down attempt to bias people to vote in favour of the "big green improvement" option without a fair consideration of the alternatives or of the impact that charging would have on city centre businesses. I don't want to live in a city devoid of facilities due to a combination of crap public transport and road pricing.