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I've always assumed that when getting solar panels you pay something like 20k upfront or spend 20 years paying them off, to which by this point they don't really make much of a saving.
I'd like to think solar has moved on since but are they worth it?
As far as I know, you'd always have to pay up front. The point is the estimated life is about 20 years and it used to be marginal if you would recoup the costs in electricity savings.
The panels are now better and the cost has come down a bit. Also electricity prices have gone up significantly and are only likely to increase over time, so the balance is probably more in the favour of fitting then, provided you don't take a loan to pay for them.
Most countries also offer subsidies which then makes them a no brainer, but afaik the UK withdrew the subsidy scheme a few years ago. There is also talk in the UK of making them mandatory on new builds.
There's no VAT on the full install at the moment, that's a big saving. Kit is cheaper, better and fitting quicker, tons of cowboys.
My tiny and less than optimal install put 50 miles in the car yesterday as well as running the house, as I have a milk float but do low miles and also low evening usage I can't justify a house battery install, but those are generally a good idea to get from the start.
10k in the bank won't earn as much as solar on the roof.
Feed in Tarrifs proved to be a massive gold mine so they've been replaced by a pittance per kWh exported, use it or store it instead.
For heating? Absolutely, insulation first. We need electric vehicles to enhance the local environment, I live in a town centre, combustion engines are disgusting in traffic. Plus, I like fast cars and hamburgers.
Loads of DIY kits about these days plus battery packs so can be used at night too. Looking around depends on the KWh required and storage amount. With the DIY kits you won't get the feed in tariff but considering the amount you get back now its not worth paying the extra for that certificate.
Its worth mentioning these kits can be effective if you know a good roofer and electrician.
my grandfather had couple panels, they did hot water in the summer that was about it
wouldn't need electric cars at all , if we all ate less meat
wtf , electricity and meat consumption how on earth did you get to that conclusion?
let’s all eat imported avacodos and exotic fruit and veg brought over on fairy powered boats and plains instead ….. good one that. Is that another of your conspiracy theories. Eat more mushrooms lol
Our loft is insulated, we have triple glazed windows and can't have the walls filled with polystyrene ***** as the house is timber framed.
We have a 4 bed with 2 kids, who seem to love leaving everything on. I was thinking batteries in the loft that the panels could charge, then run the house off them accordingly. I've also heard, but haven't looked, that the government no longer pay you for the power you send back to the grid.
At current equipment and electricity prices, most sources are saying solar panels will pay for themselves within 5 to 10 years now (if not sooner), compared with 15 to 20 previously. Pretty easy maths, if you have the right roof and enough spare cash.
Our loft is insulated, we have triple glazed windows and can't have the walls filled with polystyrene ***** as the house is timber framed.
We have a 4 bed with 2 kids, who seem to love leaving everything on. I was thinking batteries in the loft that the panels could charge, then run the house off them accordingly. I've also heard, but haven't looked, that the government no longer pay you for the power you send back to the grid.
The old deal with the FIT payments was a steal, people are coining it right now. The best export - SEG - you can get today is about 15p kWh, more if you risk fluctuations in the market. Batteries would 100% make sense in your case but try not to stick them in the loft as they suffer in the summer and winter.
Loads of DIY kits about these days plus battery packs so can be used at night too. Looking around depends on the KWh required and storage amount. With the DIY kits you won't get the feed in tariff but considering the amount you get back now its not worth paying the extra for that certificate.
Its worth mentioning these kits can be effective if you know a good roofer and electrician.
Be very wary of DIY 'kits' if they are connected to the mains grid. You are supposed to fill out forms and get permission from your DNO (district network operator). That said there's a fast track system in place for standard installs up to 4kw - that's not enough to heat your house and charge your car. If you want more than that or add capacity to a existing system where they want to limit your export, things get more difficult on the DIY path.
I have a 4Kw system inherited from the previous home owner. 16 poly 250w panels (should use Mono these days) on a West facing roof with a 3.6kw inverter. In summer it'll peak at 3.5kw, but usually ticks over at around 2kw from mid-day onwards and generates about 20Kwh a day. In winter it's about 800watts and about 5Kwh a day: Not enough to run a heat pump in winter ( when you need it! ), it'll cover parasitic losses from PSU etc and the feed-in offsets running lights at night, that's about it.
I need to move my inverter and will attempt to get a tradesperson in as I want to add another system to the other roof, hopefully a tame one that lets me do the manual work and he'll just hook it up and do the paperwork.
Problem is if you work all day and at home at night, you can guess where your consumption is going to be. Which is my problem, so that's where battery storage is something to consider. My only energy source is electric, no gas/oil etc. With that in mind and current pricing, I have looked at other options. The interesting one is a CHP diesel genset that provides heat, electric and backup power. If you sit down and work out the numbers, there is a price point where electricity cost per kwh creeps closer to running a generator on red diesel (taking into account 40% efficiency and not including heat recovery from exhaust/cooling system etc.).
Originally Posted by Jackclark
For heating? Absolutely, insulation first.
Insulation has its limits - it doesn't run a oven or a kettle. I was quoted for EWS (external insulation) as the house needs re-rendering anyway. Came back with £50k. It's a 4bed detached! There is no way energy saving could recover that financial outlay. By all means if you have new windows etc. Make sure they have proper thermal breaks, loads of UK aluminium windows have terrible thermal break design. Alu-clad is better if installed right.
Now I'm going to get political here - we need a frank discussion on the UK's infrastructure, and my advice, because of this lack of urgent action at top levels, if you can plan for off-grid operability for basic home needs:
Whilst out with the calculator, look at the UK's generation capacity. And the expected number electric cars. Considering there's at least 36 million houses that have at least one car. So even at the slow charge rate of 2.7kw which will give about 30miles range in about 3 to 5hours of charge (depends if it's a small Leaf, hybrid or a huge heavy Tesla/Audi/Merc SUV, that's a extra 2.7kw per car owning house that's 97000megawatts. 97gigawatts. Currently UK mean electric consumption hovers at 30gigawatts, peaking at 40Gw. Our claimed installed capacity is 75.8GW, but bear in mind that's "everything on" so realistically we can't generate all that all of the time.
Even if we did we're still over 21GW short on capacity at the most modest of estimates and doesn't account for houses switching from gas/oil to heat pumps or surges in demand during cold spells (peaking at 59GW). We need at least an extra 21gigawatts. Consider the planned Hinkley C nuclear plant will only generate 3.26GW. We're going to need another 7 nuclear plants!
Don't forget we haven't mentioned buses and goods vehicles. I mean yeah, that's not insignificant either.
Truth of the matter is, we're going to end up with a system like Spain, where your electric is contracted by your peak demand and limited by a ICP. Use too much in one go, it cuts you off. These ICPs are now built into the smart meters which every property has now. You need to use more, you contact the supplier and change to a more expensive tarrif. Most houses are on 20 to 25 amps (4.4Kw to 5.5Kw). In the Uk most houses are on 60 to 100amps supply meaning we can draw from 14.4Kw upto 24Kw! Clearly the UK will have to de-rate everyone's supply somehow as we do not have enough generation capacity for future use!
Wow I didn't see any mention of that on the sites I was looking at, thanks for pointing that out. I was surprised at the lack of "regulation" (form filling etc) so to speak.
Wow I didn't see any mention of that on the sites I was looking at, thanks for pointing that out. I was surprised at the lack of "regulation" (form filling etc) so to speak.
Yeah I noticed some gloss over this, makes me wonder how many legit install there are - anything that feeds power into the grid needs DNO approval. The exception is off-grid systems. Some of the better DIY sellers sell the parts and offer to do the paperwork on your behalf.
Fact is the grid operator has to legally make sure all input/output connected to the grid can be shut off and isolated and is not overloaded by too much power going in or out of a circuit. The last thing they want is some dodgy Chinesium inverter feeding in power to the grid after they've isolated it for workman to work on. Most stuff does shut down and has export limitation but it needs to be certified and approved.
If your system is not MCS approved you won't get an export tarrif, export tariffs are key to reducing cost and assisting our grid to cope.
Doing my bit today
FIT, yes but can't get that now. Jury is out on SEG...the amount paid per unit really needs to be closer inline with market rate.
This is why having battery storage is now popular, as with current electricity prices it's currently better to keep what you generate and use it for when the Solar is offline. At worst using discounted power like eco7 to charge it up if there isn't enough solar power to charge during the day.
FIT, yes but can't get that now. Jury is out on SEG...the amount paid per unit really needs to be closer inline with market rate.
This is why having battery storage is now popular, as with current electricity prices it's currently better to keep what you generate and use it for when the Solar is offline. At worst using discounted power like eco7 to charge it up if there isn't enough solar power to charge during the day.
Some Octopus rates are paying more than they're charging at the moment but it's a bit of a gamble as rates fluctuate, batteries help maximise that for sure but Winter might be a bit off putting. If I didn't have the car I'd probably have batteries but the payback at my use rates would be long... like the car. The solar I got for free so that changes sums for me personally.
I mean would the investment be worth it , if you were to move on
It would depend on the system but I'd expect something for it or I'd be taking everything but the panels with me. It can raise your EPC rating so there is that.
Yeah I noticed some gloss over this, makes me wonder how many legit install there are - anything that feeds power into the grid needs DNO approval. The exception is off-grid systems. Some of the better DIY sellers sell the parts and offer to do the paperwork on your behalf.
Fact is the grid operator has to legally make sure all input/output connected to the grid can be shut off and isolated and is not overloaded by too much power going in or out of a circuit. The last thing they want is some dodgy Chinesium inverter feeding in power to the grid after they've isolated it for workman to work on. Most stuff does shut down and has export limitation but it needs to be certified and approved.
That might explain why its missing, I think these DIY kits were "off grid" only.
Reading around there doesn't seem to be a clear, concise group of guides, its a bit of this and a bit of that with lots of it really outdated. Are there any diy forums you would suggest?
That might explain why its missing, I think these DIY kits were "off grid" only.
Reading around there doesn't seem to be a clear, concise group of guides, its a bit of this and a bit of that with lots of it really outdated. Are there any diy forums you would suggest?
Cheers Nossy id like to know this too , or even if its worth it, none of us are getting any younger , is the investment worthwhile .?
I've insulated the f##k out of my 200 year old barn project ( feels like I've been doing it for 200 years!) and achieved a B EFC rating with a ground source heat pump and ufh. A solar PV will take the EFC to an A. I see it as an investment in the building capital, making the property highly efficient to run, with a cleaner heating system for the next few decades. It "should" sell quickly and at a higher price than competitors, as well as heating brilliantly. I'm amazed how the ground underfloor heating actually heats the whole house, and adding 9kw of PV and a battery should see us with virtually no heating costs
Of course the £26500 RHI payment over 7 years for the GSHP has softened the installation costs, plus VAT reclaimed on all fixed materials ( available to self builders converting agricultural buildings)
Cheers Nossy id like to know this too , or even if its worth it, none of us are getting any younger , is the investment worthwhile .?
Doing the maths (I may be way off) but on electric lets say you average £1500-£2000 then you would expect to recoup your money on a DIY kit in about 4 years. But that doesn't include labour costs. Thats where you may need "to know" someone/mates rates. I'm getting too old to be climbing up and down these ladders now.
The panels are MCS certified on their own website. @JackClark am I looking at that right? or is it the whole kit that needs to be or should be MCS certified?
I don't know if thats a good kit, over priced or if there are other components that need to be bought. Happy to hear thoughts from Scooby solar net (with the way fuel costs are going we will have to put these on our cars)
MCS certified in your DIY case will just ensure that you're not buying garbage and your'e not bodging it on, it covers every component and standards for using them. On standard roofs they're completing jobs in a couple of hours, it's not rocket science. You will need to contact your DNO to ask how much energy you can give them for free. You won't get paid for export unless an approved MCS company completes the job, you can get the complete single invoice VAT free, so buying it all at once is a good idea.
Plan for generating nothing some days in Winter. Today I'm powering the whole terrace base load, the electricity company are loving it no doubt.
Whole terrace might be an exaggeration but not bad. Adding optimisers while you can is a good idea, these help with shading but even unshaded knowing what each panel is doing is nice.
04 April 2023, 10:29 PM
Solar power roof panels
(with the way fuel costs are going we will have to put these on our cars)
