Felix.

If you're on a fixed salary, can you're employer reduce it if you're not reaching a set target?

SmurfyBhoy

Not unless you agree AFAIK

stilover

Not unless it was written into your contract that you should have read before signing.

David Lock

Better make some more arrests and meet those targets - lock up a few clowns


dl

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

If your employer asks you to work fewer hours or take a pay cut, this is a change to your contract of employment. Any change to your contract of employment must be agreed by both you and your employer.

Felix.

Most of my lock-ups are clowns

We are getting some sort of talk on Friday detailing this, but it comes off the back of the Windsor report and the Tories reducing bureaucracy by creating more needless paperwork.

In essence, at the moment you get an incremental salary rise each year up to year 10 - although these have been on hold for a while. Doesn't effect me as I've got 16 years in, but those stuck on a lower pay-scale has been annoying for them. Now they are wanting to bring an appraisal system where you have to prove your worth. Can't see how its going to work as you can not know what jobs you will get sent too and i can't see them giving us any time to produce these appraisal reports.

Anyway, it has been stated that if your on the top pay scale, and you don't achieve your appraisal then they will reduce your pay back down a scale. I'm sure they can't do this as an employer. I'm fairly certain that once you have been awarded a pay grade it can't be removed - you can get sacked or removed from your position and get an equivalent pay grade, but not a pay decrease in the same role.

Turbohot

I'd go with that.

They can't just reduce your hours and reduce the salary.

I've seen it happen to people on permanent (as per their initial contract) position. They took their highly repeated organisations to the tribunal; on the basis that they were put in a situation to leave, as the reduced hours and reduced income was a breach of contract and wouldn't support their livelihood. These people successfully obtained voluntary redundancy with redundancy cash settlement from their employer organisations outside the court.

Turbohot

I must add that for the jobs that involve the expectation of reaching set targets, there's a good possibility that the employment contractual T&C, which includes the fixed salary declaration, are subject to the employee reaching the set targets, and such is already stated in the contract. Even then, the employee should seek advice on the matter from ACAS and/or their union, if they belong to one.

Devildog

Welcome to what many of us in the private sector have had to do since the introduction of employment laws. As for time - you prepare the report in your own time. Get over it. Its in your interest to do so.


I would agree with that - subject to what your contract of emplyment says. If youre pay scale is performance related, for example, then you may well be faced with having to accept what is proposed. Bear in mind that your contract may not specify what your rate of pay actually is.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Do...-contracts.pdf

stilover

As you're clearly a copper then. Why not just drive round looking for crime and start nicking scum. Safer streets and you don't lose your money.

PS. I'd love to be a Traffic cop. I'd be dishing out fines left right and centre to those people who indicate left on a round about while turning right, then dart off on whichever exit they were wanting. Or those who never bother to indicate at all.

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

Appraisal has been in place for Sgt to Ch Insp ranks for some time. It was to be rolled out to Cons from April 16. I don't think your interpretation is quite right - the process is based on 'assumed competence', with emphasis on supervisors to identify deficiencies at the earliest point in time and take positive intervention to support officers to improve their competence using an 'Under Performance Process (UPP)'. Failure to attain a level of competence by your normal increment date, will result in that increment not being applied, but once assessed as competent it is applied and intended to be back dated.

Supervisors will not want to invoke UPP because it generates paperwork and admin for them. The process is supposed to be consistently applied across English and Welsh forces, so your force is unlikely to deviate from any process that can not align with the National Occupational Standards, in terms of objective setting, and that bar is not set particularly high.

https://www.skillsforjustice-ppf.com/?rg_id=8&r_id=1#re

Google "policing making it count 2015" for the full details of the process - it will help pass a slow late shift!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Just nip out and target a few motorists, they are easy.

Being serious, they've already done this to teachers.

Felix.

But surly, you don't go in on your days off to do it? Most of my family work in the private sector and I've never seen them have to give up their weekends to write their appraisal reports.

And i'm assuming that each report you write for each incident will have to be backed up with some sort of evidence to what you have done - I can only get this from work as i cant exactly bring case files etc home with me. And i can't simply stay back at work after a shift as we only get 12 hours between shifts and you need at least 11 clear hours between them.

Felix.

You can't exactly do that on emergency response shifts. You respond to the incidents as they come in. If they are no emergencies in at that time you get sent to the next priority etc etc - once you have finished one job, you get sent to the next or sometimes if your half way through a job they will divert you to another more pressing one. And then most of the job you 'pick up' have further inquiries to do which you have to find time for.

You get some months where you make no arrests - not that your not busy, its just the jobs you have been sent to have not required an arrest. Its a bit like and doctor working in A&E, it quite possible that he just hasn't dealt with any broken legs that month or had to perform CPR.

I just don't think you can have an appraisal system in our roles

And is it what the public really want - making decisions on arrests and case inquiries purely based on the officers appraisal score for the month?

Felix.

So you have to hit and evidence each on on the list? And what if, for example, you don't search anyone that month? Or you don't get sent to a priority or volume incident? Is that it for that month - reduction on pay?

and what is a slow late shift?

And how much of an appraisal report do they want from each incident? Presumably I can't just say "see the incident log" or "see the case file"

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Teachers have to do theirs at home, plus unscrupulous heads are already saving their schools money by withholding allowances.

Welcome to the brave new world, created by Lying Labour and run by Tory Tossers.

Just bear in mind that it was the public sector's fault, with their gold plated pensions, that we are in the mess we now are, not the bankers or government at all

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

You will not have to evidence every competency in each reporting period, which will be across a year, for example there will be specialist units who never make an arrest, how can you assess their ability to process someone through custody, when it isn't something they are routinely expected to do?

Evidence of achieving the objectives which you set and agree with your supervisor, will only be reviewed at its most frequent, quarterly, and more likely 6 months after agreeing the objectives. There will then be a final assessment of performance at the end of the 12 month reporting period. If you are below par your supervisor must highlight as soon as it becomes apparent and provide reasonable assistance (training, mentoring, advice etc) to restore performance or improve competence.

There is no scope for reduction in salary - progression within the pay band can be withheld if performance is deficient, but once you are on pay point x you can not be brought back to a lower pay point. That would be a pay sanction, and as far as I am aware only PSD can impose that after an investigation / hearing.

late shift 1400 - 2359 - slow - when it drags by as there is little happening? if you claim not to have any slow late turns, then you should have plenty of evidence for your performance review!

Felix.

But the objectives appear to be already set by that list and are 'specialist units' immune to these appraisals? And is emergency response classed as a 'specialist unit'?

And surly performance can already be seen by the supervision - they know what jobs I am involved with and who is dealing with what and why; why do we need me to report back on everything I do?

You're joking - tends to be the busiest time. School's close, work ends (for your 9-5's), everyone goes to the pubs and leave and wander home for another domestic, care homes report all their residents as MFH. I'm on a 1300 - 0100 late shift tomorrow, so I'll probably re-appear at 0300 after the clubs kick out.

I think we are getting this input tomorrow at some point, so it will be interesting to see what they say.

Felix.

Finally had this input (having been turned out from the previous one).

They are basically saying that they can impose a reduction of salary if we don't meet certain targets - and explain that as we are 'public servants & servants to the crown' we don't fall under employment law and so they can deduct from salary.

This can not be correct as we must still fall under employment law and as such they can not do this.

^Qwerty^

Sounds like a plain and simple change of contract to me, but I've never worked in the public sector and have no idea what is in the small print of your contract - I assume you have one no matter if you a nurse, fireman, soldier etc.

I've never heard of or had direct experience of anybody having their salary reduced. Typically a person not hitting targets or being classed as a poor performer for any reason would go on to a PIP and then be engineered out the business, but it's not easy.

Good luck with it anyway.

Ash Webster

When I used to manage shops for Ladbrokes (the scum that they are), they forced us to sign new contracts which would allow them to make us work 14 hour days back to back , as well as full days single manning shops. All this while people were getting robbed/stabbed in bookies all over the country. Everything that company did was shady as ****. Was either sign up or get put on 0 hours contracts.

On-the-bog

Still fall under employment law yes. However you need to have a proper read through your t's and c's including all referenced documents and small print. I'd be surprised if there isn't a clause in their somewhere that allows them to do it.

Worst case they can make you redundant and offer you a new job with a revised contract, which is perfectly legal by the way.

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

The gist of what they are saying is correct, in that you are not an employee; your appointment to the office of constable confers on you a special status, which makes you and all coppers as an independant legal entity; for example your supervisor can not direct you to discharge a weapon, use force, or tell you to make an arrest, you have to make those judgements independantly without influence from others.

You are a crown servant, not an employee of the crown, which is why the Employment Rights Act doesn't apply to you in the same way it does to someone in industry as you have no contract of employment. This ensures you can't refuse to work additional hours, can't sue for constructive dismissal, and enables the additional intrusion into your private life that doesn't apply to employees, amongst other things.

I am genuinely surprised that reward and recognition or HR would contemplate performance related salary reductions. I have known many who recieved a reduction in salary, but only as a sanction arising from a charge being proven by professional standards.

Who is setting and agreeing your objectives? Sounds like under promise and over-deliver are the order of the day.

Felix.

But I am an employee of the local police constabulary/authority. They pay my salary etc. They are also responsible for paying my holiday entitlement, my health & safety and I am contracted to work a set number of hours per month. And as far as i know, i can refuse to work additional hours - and if i do decide to work them, they will have a contractual obligation to pay me. Other professions can also recall staff in times of emergency - doctors, surgeons etc - but they will not be classed as crown servants; its possible that such a 'recall to duty' is written into their contract. I can also sue the force for things such as constructive dismissal or discrimination laws.

So the police must still fall under employment law and we must be able to be protected by it. Otherwise, they could just make things up as they go along.

On-the-bog

Take from,

https://www.metfed.org.uk/support/up...0Constable.pdf

Afraid your wrong, you are a servant of the crown, not an employee, although apparently most aspects of employment law are still valid.

My advice, seek real legal advice if you want to fight it, anything on here is speculation and guess work.

An0n0m0us

Exactly what I was about to reply. The only way forward with this is to go and see a solicitor who specialises in employment law. Then if you find that your contract of employment is being breached and you have a claim that you then look to recover your legal costs.

Aren't your colleagues worried about the same thing and could bring a group action then share the initial cost of seeing a solicitor?

Felix.

Yes we are all worried to some degree. Since this was supposed to have been in for some time now and they just getting round to telling us. And the first training session we missed due to incoming emergencies - so no one has the first idea about what paperwork we are supposed to submit for the appraisal.

So, what ever targets they set - we may miss, as it just depends what jobs you get called to. What if next month i don't arrest anyone, as i never get sent to a job that needs an arrest or i chose to summons them instead? Or all my jobs seem to be welfare issues, missing from homes and sudden deaths? Do they just reduce my pay for that month down to the previous pay point?

The training we have had (if you can call it training - cascade training and word of mouth) seems to suggest that is exactly what they will start to do - and when you think about it, its a way of keeping the wage bill down.

An0n0m0us

If it was me i'd be taking this straight to a solicitor however you need to have the full facts of what your force is doing so they need to have put it all in writing to you and what contract of employment you have signed.

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

Felix - you need to take a deep breath, take a couple of steps backwards, and look at this from a wider perspective.

Lets clear up some facts first - If you are a police officer you are not an employee, therefore employment law in the context of the Employment Rights Act does not apply to you. Your service (not employment) is governed by Police Performance Regs, Police Conduct Regs and Police Regs, in essence they encapsulate the protections of the Employment Rights Act, but you dont have a contract of employment because you are not employed. If you doubt me, buy your federation rep a coffee and pull up a chair in the canteen and ask him to explain it to you.

Regarding the appraisal process - your force will have a policing plan or strategy which sets out what it will do over the next number of years - typically a 5 year period. Everyone in your force, the chief, the ACPO ranks, and benenath will all contribute towards delivery of that strategy. That means your objectives need to be linked to the delivery of that strategy. Things like number of arrests is as meaningless a metric as the number of dougnuts you pack away on a shift.

Your objectives will be governed by the SMART acronym;

Specific - to your role
Measurable - you need key goal indicators, to show progress is being made towards meeting your objective.
Attainable - no point setting objective you cant deliver - this rules out the points you made in your previous post.
Realistic - This one keeps the prevous point honest, not too difficult to achieve and not so easy it takes no effort to achieve it
Time Bound - a specified period within which you will agree to achieve your objective - usually at a maximum the duration of the reporting period, but sometimes less, if you do something monthly, quarterly. If it takes a year to deliver your objective, that is fine, the measureable bit above, will offer a mechanism whereby you can show you are on track towards it at any point in the reporting period. It is also likely the first standing objective on supervisors PDR will be to complete the performance review and reporting process in the allotted timeframe.

I will guarantee that your reporting period will be yearly. A couple of logical reasons for this - budgets are allocated on an annual cycle, as are salary increments, as are probation periods.

If you force is wanting to cut its costs - this is not the way to do it. The first thing that will stop is external training, the next will be business travel, the next will be overtime - if they start adding French cars to their fleet, it is a sign they are bankrupt and it's time to find another career!

Arm yourself with info - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...to-performance

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Dumberside Police, one of the worst performing in the UK, used Protons...