f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Are there any posters on here who are into decent car audio?

I know plenty about domestic hi-fi systems, but little about car audio. I have enquired about upgrading my car audio and been told I really need a subwoofer for the best sound. Trouble is getting a subwoofer to work in my car properly is close to impossible (2 seater convertible - petrol bank behind rear bulkhead so no option to use boot).

So is it still possible to get decentish sound out of a system without a subwoofer and if so what speakers are best to give at least some bass. I am not a bass freak so I am hoping I can make this work without major surgery to the car to install what at best will be a compromised subwoofer.

As a guide I am looking at an Alpine 7" touch screen multimedia/NAV head unit and adding a 5 channel ( or 4 channel without the sub) amp/speakers.

fat-thomas

iTrader: (4)

you can buy an under seat subwoofer, they are small and obviously dont take up boot space.
some decent components in the front and possibly an amp to power them is a good start.
i fitted hertz audio speakers in my impreza and dynamatted the doors as they are thin and tinny in imprezas but depending on the car it might not be needed.
mine is all powered by a pioneer double din sat nav unit similar to what you have in mind id imagine, has ipod control and bt features.
without a subwoofer it lacks a bit of bass though.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for the reply. No room under the seat sadly..... it's got whizz pop vented/heated/contour/massage seats which means there's not bloody room LOL!

Yeah I am wondering whether this is partly why the Bose system sounds crap.... maybe it's not possible to get it to sound good. There is a subwoofer in the car in the passenger footwell, but it's noddy!

fat-thomas

iTrader: (4)

dont get me wrong the sound system is by no means amazing in my impreza now but its ten times better than the factory fit one was ( i dont have a sub).
the dynamat makes a lot of difference as does a decent headunit.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Cheers, to be honest I am a sound quality freak so I may be being a bit harsh as regards the factory system, but I would like to improve it.

It's really looking for some speakers that go quite low frequency wise so hopefully the absence of a subwoofer will not be too much of an issue I guess.

mike1210

In my Golf I have Focal 165 KRX2 speakers in front and VR speakers in the back. 8" Hertz sub and genesis 5 channel amp in the back behind rear seats.

In testing the guys who fitted it said the front components were outdoing the sub for the bass. Only thing is the panels were rattling badly so I high passed them at about 80Hz and let the sub do the really low end. Fitting Dynamat helped the bass no end.

If you dont listen to electronic music I wouldn't recommend a Sub as the bass will be more than likely too OTT and slow.

For your car I would say get a decent set of componets and amp them up when funds permit.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yep this is my thinking, focus on getting some decent speakers that will give at least some bass.

On the subject of Bose personally I am yet to hear a product with the Bose name on it that sounds anything better than average! Marketing over substance IMO!

Cheers, luckily the door cards etc. on my car are pretty well made to I suspect something like the Focals with some Dynamat will do the trick. Thanks for your response.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Is this for the Merc?

Does it not already have a bose amp there somwhere?
I'd also bet that it uses a MOST ring.
If so, then you're fcuked to be perfectly frank.
Well thats how I understood it when i considered replacing the audio - expensive to change, everything is connected via fibre optic from the amp

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes it has MOST which is why you can't use the Bose amp.... which is not a problem as it's no good! You can re-use the speakers, but they are a funny impedance and also not that great!

So you do away with the whole Command system including the NAV DVD in the boot and the CD auto-changer in the rear compartment behind the passenger seat and go with something like an Alpine 7" NAV/head unit with an amp such as an Audison and replacement speakers.

You gain iPod functionality and phone integration, but lose the NAV and audio display from the dash which is not a problem. The steering wheel controls are retained. Remember my car is 9 years old.. the Command system is pretty antiquated by modern standards... the NAV facility on it is also pretty shocking to use.

fawor

iTrader: (3)

Im on focals 165kr and no way speakers will be enough for bass.
cant do both middle and low frequencies, (twitters should keep highest freq) You could add 2 more speakers (size depends how big spekers You could go),switch them to do lows but i dont think it will suit You.
You need sub and amp end of story.
I read focals are to digital,metallic robo sound from them and thats true,especially with pioneer.
Maybe I need some time to set them up.

urban

iTrader: (1)

You don't have any bass f1?
I imagine I have a very similar system, and there is plenty of bass.

riiidaa

iTrader: (2)

i recall seeing glovebox mounted mini subs before

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

IMO if in your position, I would,
Replace all oe speakers with something like focal or simlar and if you can fit 2 speakers (maybe make a custom housing) to replace 1 which you are replacing (I.e a bass driver and mid/tweeter) and run 2 suitable amps for them (1 amp for mid/tweeter and the other amp for bass) and maybe replace the footwell sub if you can and run that on the bass amp too.
There you will have nice quality sound with good quality deep bass if you choose right components.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Good for you

1) we have completely different cars. The environments and system configuration are quite different.

2) there is some bass with the current system. The whole system sound quality is just not very good.

3) if it's OK with you I will judge how the system in my car sounds to me

Ant

chris , give these guys a ring they're very helpful and definitely know their stuff when it comes to car audio.

http://www.sourcesounds.com

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

First question is how many speakers do you have currently?

I saw you mentioned something about a space where a disc changer fits, how big is this?

I'd imagine you have space somewhere for cross overs to tuck out of the way too.

Bass being none directional means location isn't an issue, but if you want quality it needs to be component speakers and cross overs and a head unit with a sub out.

I haven't done this for 20 years, but there must be something out there that can do mids and base with a set of tweeters in the front on the dash or even cut into the dash as they are the only ones that really need to face you. There are also some pretty nifty pillar / door mounted tweeter pods that will look pretty OE if fitted correctly.

Don't know where these quys stand in the market today but they made some decent speakers in my day and I still have a set of 4 inch mids tweeters with cross overs in the garage that made for a decent sound.
http://www.mbquart.com/mbquart_reference_speakers.html

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Cheers. Will give them a shout.

neil-h

There's not a lot I can add on the matter of door speakes that hasn't already been said, although I will put in another recommendation for Hertz gear.

As for the sub issue, JL do a range of thin subs which are rather good. The low insertion depth (and driver volume) means you can get away with quite a shallow enclosure, so your mounting options are significantly better. For instance a mate of mine has just had two of the 10 inch versions mounted under the rear seats in a Nissan Navara.

serega

Generally, in the realm of 2-way component and coaxial systems you will struggle to get any response lower than 80hertz at a decent decibel level from your midbass driver. It all comes down to physics and at the moment this is not a problem that you can solve on a low budget.

Because tweeters are usually way too small to reproduce anything below 2000hertz without blowing themselves to pieces, a midbass driver needs to be able to play up to 2000hertz and to do this it needs to either be a smaller size, or a use a softer material, both of these properties will limit its ability to play lower frequency ranges, a soft material will rip itself to shreds and small size will not allow the speaker to move enough air.

Some higher-end speakers can dip lower due to R&D into composites and better magnets, but it's still very stressful for a 6" speaker that needs to play up to 2000hz to operate at frequencies lower than 80 hertz and you can expect shortened life expectancy.

You can also invest some money in sound-deadening the doors and making proper enclosures for midbass drivers, that will help your drivers move air more efficiently and lose less energy and increase your low range frequency output.

You should also keep in mind that even 80 hertz can be considered bassy enough by most people, take a look at this chart and see for yourself what instruments you'll be missing out on, is this something you are interested in hearing and is that something you want to spend your money on ?





If you have a quiet car and have a real interest in sound reproduction quality, you can always invest a few quid and go for a 3-way system, this utilizes 3 speakers on each side to further break down the frequency range into smaller pieces, so each speaker is less stressed and plays the frequencies it's most comfortable at. This will allow you to go for a real low playing set of midbass drivers that could be slightly oversized, or use a much stronger material which will allow it to play subwoofer-like frequencies.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Which is close to what I was saying, that the only way to get some real quality is to divide the three, but by the sounds of it your going to need a custom install if you really want to go the whole hog.

Also bare in mind as soon as you start the engine and drive down the road it all goes to ****.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for the replies. Yes going 3 way. Tweeter in a pillar, 2 speakers in doors as the enclosure already has mounts for two decent sized speakers. Audison amp and Alpine head unit. If it doesn't work well enough we can still add a sub.

Ditch, it's a Mercedes.... you can hear yourself think inside the car when it's moving

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

If its a R230 SL It's going to be a tight squeeze to fit anything; I know as I've ripped out the interior on a couple (one to replace a fuel tank, one to fix CAN bus and audio system "wake up" issues, as well as a few bluetooth kits). Its all pretty compact and bijoux for a large car (and bloody heavy seats ).

The only useful space is in the areas where the CD changer is behind the seats, also the adjacent rear quarter trim panels have a bit of space, but you are not going to find space for a purposful subwoofer - custom enclosure or not. The footwell sub is a plastic Bose affair...much like the one on my NSX...which also sounded odd (I don't know how bass can sound plastic-ky, but it did LOL ). .

Beware if its a early R230, its NOT a MOST bus but a D2B optical loop. Physically similar, but two different communication protocols which are incompatible with each other (notably differences is protocol, speeds and "wake up" methods; which caused me some headaches when the loom got waterlogged LOL ). You will need to know this if you decide to use a aftermarket gateway to work with OEM equipment.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Cheers Ali, it's MOST as it's a 2005 model. They changed that year from the D2B.

Yes there is not much space anywhere in the car for a sub or audio equipment in general.

What we are going to do is rip out CD changer, the NAV DVD, the Bose amp and Bose speakers as well as the COMMAND unit and replace it all with Alpine/Audison gear so the MOST won't be an issue.

Can keep the steering wheel controls, but will lose the NAV and AUDIO from the dash display, but I can live without that.

You are absolutely right about the bass sound... it's plasticky, that is a very good description. There's plenty of it, it's just crap sounding... that's the issue.

Turbohot

Grown out of boom boxes in cars, but it does make a difference, I know. Even my standard one has decided to stop working, which could be a fuse issue. I'll ask Checkpoint to fix it for me.

Liking AliB's new "Falling Down" avatar.

serega

With a 3-way system and a proper choice of midbass drivers there will be no need for a subwoofer for any of your real life instrument music needs.

However, if you are into synthesized music, where low frequencies aren't made by instruments but are added as sound effects to rattle things, you could still find the sound pressure that your speakers will produce lacking slightly.

Depending on your music needs, you should choose the midbass drivers and its sizes very carefully.

In proper SQ car setups subwoofers are often not used.

Scoobynet isn't really a great place to ask for car sound advice, since most subarus are built for other things that compromise creature comforts, sound reproduction included.

Check out http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/ there is plenty of information there already if you use search and most people there are very knowledgeable in this particular field if you need to ask questions.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I've got 3 way components in my Golf. Indeed they do reach a bit lower than the average co-axial, but the big limitation is the doors they are fitted in.

I've lined them with butyl, sealed, accoustic foam is glued to areas where they won't foul the window gear. But even then its doesn't match a small subwoofer; Bass is all about the enclosure, so there is only so much that can be done with a door (although a lot can be done if its tin-thin like a Scooby.

Mine also rattle the door skin bolts loose (seriously...the bolt-on door skins started falling off - thread lock doesn't seem to work, they still come loose ), so I run them with high pass filter set at around 60hz, which helps and stops them getting flabby at loud volumes too.

mike1210

Tidy, I used Dynamat in mine, cone filter on the speakers and still I got rattle so had to high pass. Unfortunately this makes it an **** for your local garage if your window or lock breaks and needs to be fixed.

My garage were like "what the hell is this stuff, it took us ages to work around it"