AlanG

My reasoning for asking is that it's unanimous that the headlamps on the Classic cars are poor whether it's the pre '98 or crystal effect post '98 cars.

There is a certain small level of improvement to be made by uprating the lenses with the various aftermarket bulbs available and there are a number of threads where people have fitted HID conversions into the lamps. But is it really worth it?

Most HID lamp units have their respective lamps designed from the outset to maximise full potential of the greater output and visibility, but to those with Classic headlamps, are you only really seeing a whiter light spread over the same area as before with the commensurate scatter the lenses are originally designed with?

Would you say these HID *kits* are worth the substantial outlay, only to have, what is in effect, the same poor lighting but brighter and whiter?

I'm looking for a truthful discussion on the above.
To those that have spent hundreds of pounds upgrading to HID on Classic headlamps, i'm not looking for a debate which causes you to defend your position in justification going down that route, i'm looking for an honest answer to some thoughts.

I fancy going down that route myself, but the thought of poorly designed lenses in the first place makes me think that i wouldn't achieve any one of two things:
Value for money and maximum light output from the *upgraded units*

Thoughts?

Adam M

A very valid question.

I wasn't prepared to ruin the looks of the 22B with the morettes but was unhappy with the standard lights.

I went for an autolamps H4 hy/low hid kit. in the 4100k temperature range for the best lighting I could get.

Have to say the standard dip beam is way improved and produces far more visibility, but the main beam is worse than it was prior to the mod.

Having said that I rarely use main beam so am happier 90% of the time, but the remaining 10% when I would use main beam I have to drive as if I have practically no visibility (in otherwise unlit roads).

I am solving this by fitting 22B uk driving lights in the fog light apertures whichn I will also be retro fitting with autolamps online HIDs.

Afterwards the lighting will be far better than before in all circumstances. Having said that overall, I don;t think the H4 hylows alone are worth the money.

The same cannot be said for the morette conversion if you dont mind the looks.

AlanG

Thanks Adam

I haven't searched enough information from what i assume there will be various outlets which can supply these conversions but from what you say in your reply,I assume you have HID facility in both dip and high beam? (The hi/low?)
In other words a "flap" system which drops down to give the correct dip beam pattern?
If that is the case, is your main beam not as good as you had hoped because of the lens design on your car?
If not the case, is it because the HID dip is superior to what you had, it now highlights the inadequacy of what will still be the original main beam?

FWIW, I have purchased, but still to fit, (waiting on a couple of parts) HID Hella 90mm lamps in the front bumper of my '99 but of course down in that area is not ideal to get the best spread of light, higher up would have been better, so i feel i may have made a wrong decision in going the more expensive HID route for these lamps.

The other thing about making this mistake is as you have pointed out. These lamps (main beam activated) will very rarely be used in everyday circumstances, so i don't feel i have gained value for money in this particular purchase.
Hindsight's wonderful isn't it?...

One reason i wish to try and retain the original appendages on the car as well is for insurance purposes. I have modified insurance cover for my car for all the changes i have made but one interesting insight to the cover is that they are not interested in aftermarket parts which are supplied by Subaru. For example, if i fit *any* body part item supplied as an aftermarket product from Subaru, my insurance company will not load my premium. Same goes for things like wheels, suspension etc.
Using that information, if i then fit aftermarket lights, such as the Morrettes for example (well...i don't think Subaru supply them as an accessory), then my insurance company will load up my premium commensurately in accordance with the perceived additional theft risk factor. Something to think about when modifying.
You could of course say if i went down the HID route in my headlamps, that they are not specifically Subaru parts now and are a modified aftermarket item, however, this is an avenue still to be questioned with my insurer, since externally, i doubt many would be able to tell they have been modified.

You make mention of your lamps being 4100K. THis leads to another couple of questions that have sprung to mind:

I believe these numbers relate to brightness (i could be wrong).
What therefore are the brightest HID's you can buy for lamps? Are there any brighter ones? How are they rated? Blurb states 35W but give 300% improvement. Are there more powerful units ( in wattage terms) ?
Anyone care to give links to suppliers of HID conversions so comparison/prices can be made?
If any supplier reads this, can they post details here, so i can learn more about your products and their capabilities?

Thanks

Adam M

ok, will try to answer what i can remember.

35 whats is it, you get no higher power option. The 4100K is (I assume) the breakdown temperature of the gas, this corresponds to the frequency of light which is output, though it is referred to as the temperature of the bulb. I think now the new bulbs are actually rated at 4200 rather than 4100. This temperature is the closest approximation to daylight. You can tell its a good one because the lights pretty much do nothing by day as opposed to standard lights which light the road up yellow.

You can buy 6000k lights but these are for bling factor. they are more blue for peole who like that, but in terms of lumen output, they are lower and so not the ultimate.

I have little time as my electricity is about to be cut for 20 mins so will post this now and continue when it comes back on. Will add in sections as much as I can before it goes.

Adam M

I do have the Hy/lows (odd spelling isn't it?) and the fault is not the lens design but the inability of the bulb to produce the light output in the correct place for both high and low beam in order to be correctly focused for the high beam.

It simply isn't a twin filament as there is no filament as such, so it does not match the standard main beam. This is not because it is not significantly better than the massively improved dipped beam.

Adam M

The dipped beam output is well worth the change alone, so long as you dont rely on it for main beams also. It sounds like you have already taken steps to improve your main beam, and despite it being mounted low, I would not worry too much. If you see what the hella 1000FFs can do (hid) you wouldn't think twice. Mine (driving lights in bumper) will not be as well designed as the hellas but I am hoping they will still be good, since they are the biggest I can fit in the 22B bumper apertures which are smaller than on the normal bumper.

and in your position, I wouldn't even think about the insurance implications of fitting HID bulbs in place of normal xenon bulbs.

Think thats about it for me, and I managed to squeeze it in before they cu

David_Wallis

steven has HID's in his morettes and **** me are they worth it.

David

Adam M

trouble is david the morettes aren't everyones cup of tea, and as alan says, he cant fit them without incurring an insurance penalty.

If you can, I would be inclined to ask what the insurance penalty is anyway as the improvement is as david says, worth it.

markwild

I went Hy/Lows on my classic - I've found the DIP results excellent - However, I'd agree that main is no better than DIP and is therefore, not such a great improvement - However, I added PIAA driving lamps, to replace the Fogs and these are activated with main beam - this makes the greatest difference.

I must admit, my route means I use main for about 25% of my journey in the winter, so I'm glad of the PIAAs

It's worth me pointing out that I also 'upgraded' the lamps from 98 to 00's - which cost as much as the HID conversion - but I don't think it really gave any extra light - I'm happier with the clear lens look, though, so I'm OK with the cost -

If you'd like to see the HIDS in action, I took some shots, on my websitehere

Hope this helps,
Mark

Adam M

I have done the same as mark, as mine is also on the crystal style later lights.

Am glad to hear the piaa lower driving lamps make a difference as this is what I have going on, again attached to the main beam and probably for the same reason.

i would think that overall the lighting after those will be greatly improved.

The Hy/lows are only really good enough for flashing people, and no more.

carl

I think the 4100K is actually the colour temperature, i.e. the temperature at which that colour would be produced by an equivalent blackbody radiator. 4100K is equivalent to mid-afternoon sunlight. Midday sunlight is around 5500K.

AlanG

Correct me if i'm wrong but the higher "k" figure (4100, 6000 etc) relates to temperature within the bulb and the higher the figure, the brighter the lamp?
But colour changes within the bulb as the "k" figure increases? (hence the bling! bling! comment?)

Does it mean then for optimum lighting i should stick to as close to 4100/4200k as possible?

Another probably difficult question to answer, but if you say the "dip" from an HID bulb is greatly improved over std halogen but the main beam was disappointing, is this comment made in relation to the better output from the dip HID's? or in relation to the original Halogen main beam?
I appreciate though, it may be difficult to actually form a true assessment based on how much the dip lighting has changed.

If the main beam of the HID kit is poor compared to the original halogen main beam because of the reasons you outline, then i may be swayed into finding an HID conversion which only has the one function (dip only) and rely on my Hella HID driving lamps for the main beam.

The insurance bit with respect to lighting is just a quirk i have. With the car modified to the extent it is, i don't want anything left to chance, and if it came down to something as trivial (in my mind) as bulbs in a headlamp which dictated whether the company would pay out or not in the event of a claim either by me or against me, then i'd rather have piece of mind. Probably showing my age now, as i used to think small changes to the car meant nothing to insurance. Lots of people out there do it, like change wheels for a bigger set and don't tell their insurance. Bit of a risk IMO as the consequences don't bear thinking about if a third party claims against you and your insurance is null and void.

Anyway enough of that, back to topic...

Chelspeed

It's not the temperature in the bulb, or actually the burner as HID "bulbs" are known, it's the colour temperature.

As Carl said light output is measured in lumens. Nick (from Autolamps on line) advised me that the 4100K HID's gave most lumens. So if you want maximum light down B roads get 4100K. If you want the blue look so people think you drive a BM or Merecedes (why wouldn't anybody think that's big or clever?) get 6000K or I see now they're doing 10,000K.

If you want to know anything about HID's or anything else about car headlights you could do no better than talking to Nick, he knows everything there is to know about it. He ran a group buy for HID's here 18 months ago and I think without exception everyone had nothing but praise for Nick and his company, Autolamps on line, here

markwild

AlanG - The main beam improvement is poor - the actual lighting is as follows:

dip - equivalent to the old main beam imho
main - not much improvement over the new dip - basically the beam is slightly redirected higher, but reaches no further and is no brighter (as there is only one filament)

You CANNOT go for a DIP only solution, as you will fail your MOT, because of a lack of headlamp mainbeam (sorry) - That leaves HY/LOWs or twin headlamps - The twins are ideal, because you can fit 2 sets of HIDS, one designed for low beam and one for high - but not everyone likes the look (I don't). Therefore, the best solution for me was HY/Low supported by driving lamps (PIAA in my case)....

On the subject of insurance, I'm now with L+V, who don't increase (or even wont to know) about mods, as long as you keep a record/receipt and don't increase the engine capacity (cc)....

Hope that helps,

Mark

PS _ Mine were from Nick (as above!)

Adam M

I would think the insurance ombudsman would have something to say if an insurance company attempted to back out on payment due to non disclosure of a light bulb mod.

Unless it is relevant to the accident which gave rise to the claim, I would think the insurance company can only demand the additional premium and then would still have to back out.

Carl,

thanks for your explanation, I was only guessing based on my physics background because temperature corresponds to an energy level, which due to e=hf corresponds to a frequency of light.

Alan,

it isn't the case that the higher the temperature the more light. as explained it is just a colour rating. In terms of light output you need to look at the lumen output in the frequency spectrum to which your eyes are sensitive. In this case the highest lumen output is from the whiter 4100 or 4200 bulbs thus they give the best light performance.

To make things clear, the dip is incredible compared with halogen, and the main is dissapointing compared with halogen, not compared with the dip.

It is barely different from the dip.

Apparently there is no benefit in fitting a non HID H4 in place of the hylow because without the mechanism for switching between the main and dipped beams, the focus of the dipped beam is still limited by the lamp unit.

AlanG

Good info being given here, thanks.

Thanks Mark for info on MOT time, never thought about that.

Okay, so from what i gather, you would buy an HID conversion kit to make improvements to the dip beam lighting mainly, since it would appear the main beam part of it disappoints.

To counteract that, concensus dictates utilising additional lamp units (preferably HID) conveniently mounted in the bumper to redress the balance of the disappointing main beam, yes?

Therefore from those that have went down this route, would you spend the serious amounts of dosh needed to convert the lamps to this level again? Adam has already honestly stated he feels they are probably not worth the money (though this relates to headlamp only) but what about the rest of you?
I appreciate to some, that money may not be an issue when buying bits for your car, but think of it in "value for money" terms.

It would also appear that Nick at Autolamps is the vendor of choice for these kits.
Is this because of his pricing/customer service/group buy/quality of product?

Has anyone looked into other outlets who can offer an HID conversion? What made you go with your preferred supplier?

Any opinion on other manufacturers versions of HID, their prices, customer support etc?

AlanG

Came across these. Any opinions/experience on this item or the vendor maybe?

He has other auctions covering what appears to be all lighting configurations. The link above is only an example for the H4 which interestingly has a picture of what looks like a normal halogen bulb at the side of the HID "burner" in an H4 pattern. Strange... (also brings to mind the comments already made with regards to HID's and dip/main beam)

Adam M

In further answer, yes you have summed up well.

I am one of those fools who is guilty of not caring how much money is spent on the car as it is my pride and joy.

Nick at autolamps is trusted and that is why he is recommended. He tells it straight and knows his stuff.

He will wanr you away from korean and far east sourced HID kits which the ones you have linked to seem to be.

I like the idea of the dip and main beam on that one which you linked to, but I dont like the way they are praying on idiots by quoting 8000k colour temperature. Its a bit like higher is better so they make sure of a market. Nick will tell you that even their high temperature kits designed to cater for the the blingers are only rated at 6000k.

Their ballast chart makes it clear they are aiming for use far east bulbs. Nicks kits only use Phillips who are the pioneers of the technology and the market leaders. Its the longevity of the bulb which is crucial here.

the only other make which Nick will recommend are the beloff kit, which I had before but never fitted. These alter the position of the arc by changing the electric field around the gas, thus focusing it in a different part of the lamp, closer to that which the main beam woudl in a halogen bulb.

I think once my main beams driving lamps are in i will feel differently. For dip beam purposes they are certainly superior, but as your ebay article will tell you, my young eyes need 1/20th the light of a 60 year old. So I would be happy to drive around with my lights off in a semi well lit area. Its only when its pitch black that I really care for my lights and that requires main beams.

I could probably have left the halogen H4s in and just added the HID driving lamps and would have been more than happy.

too late for me now.

I would advise that you ring nick, or speak to the nice lady who will answer the phone who knows what she is talking about, though her name escapes me!

AlanG

Thanks Adam.

I think what i'll do is get the HID's into the bumper first and see how much of an improvement they give,though as mentioned earlier, in hindsight, i should have looked to improve the dip beam before anything else as these are the beam i would use mostly.

I've heard mention of Beloff's on this bulletin board a long time ago but you never hear much if anything about them now. Are they still available? and if so any contact details? (website etc)

How come you didn't try them on the car to see how they were, instead of selling and going for the Hi/Low's at a later date?

Thanks

AlanG

Oh and another question.. (sorry!)

Where did you fit the ballasts for your headlamps?
I've fitted mine for the bumper HID's just underneath each headlamp and to the side of the HID lamps (behind the bumper so as not to get any water ingress), so plenty clearance, but i'm not sure yet where i would put the ballasts if i bought a kit for the headlamps.
I've got the ABS unit in the offside wing area and there's a muckle great big air filter behind that, so no real room available to mount it there, plus i've got the battery, water expansion tank and fuse box in the nearside, so that's a bit of a no go area too.

Alan

AlanG

Anyone got experience with Beloff's that Adam spoke about?

Adam M

Alan,

I sold beloffs because I wa sshort of money and needed to free up some cash for the engine build .

I rebought the autolamps kit when I was in a position to.

I installed the ballast by double siding it to the chassis leg behind each headlight as close to the front cross member as possible.

The relays etc are all inside a plastric bag at the moment which I sealed with a rubber band and shoved in the most suitable out of the wat gap until I can do it properly when I neaten the engine bay after the engine replacement.

There is so much other stuff to go in, I didn't want to make anything permanent until I knew what I was doing.

AlanG

Cheers Adam.
I'll have a look in that area for fitting the ballasts if i go for HID'ing the headlamps.