sp00ks

iTrader: (11)

Hey guys,

after much thinking i have decided to get my engine built by a reputable local subaru specialist... (in this months total impreza)

i am just after a spot of advice.
i am aiming for 400+bhp eventually but for just the block build i am using:

Wossner forged pistons
STi V9 crank (cross drilled)
STi V9 Rods
ACL Bearings
Uprated oil pump
cometic gasket

do i really need to opt for a closed deck block as i have one available (£400) but it would requiere to be machined to take rear thrust crank (£250). i have a rear thrust standard block but open deck in garage.

is it really worth the extra £600+ expense to use a CDB over an ODB at around 400-475bhp?
also what power are STi V9 conrods good upto?

many thanks

Tom

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Best off discussing with your builder mate. Hes the one youre paying and he's the one you'll go back to if it fails due to what you were told on the internet turns out to be wrong.

Lol, not being funny, but best discussed with them.

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

At that power definately not worth a CDB versus an ODB

Why uprate the Pistons but not the rods?, crank will be ok at that power level. I dont know what a V9 Rod can take though - too many variables to consider - what boost levels your running for instance on what Turbo

I'm going to be selling a 2 Litre open deck block pretty soon with everything.. that is ok at 500bhp (rods, pistons, etc - primary build by Roger clark) as having 2.35litre finished off.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there you can consider at least STi rods or you can have look for Eagle H-Beam con rods with ARP(on eBay Advance Automotive selling for good price) which are good for those power output.

Stealth

iTrader: (4)

Uprate EVERYTHING whilst it is out, no messing about! once it is together it is together and having an expensive blown up engine or an engine that oesn't make power is a bit late to look back and consider what options you could have taken.

Just my two pence worth.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Have to agree, where as the new age STI rods are better than the classic ones, 400-450bhp seems safe with them, going much further is pushing your luck, and the pistons, well those will do the job but I would rather have ones that do the job and a half, so rods, pistons, uprated oil pump, the twin scroll crank (some people call it a v9 crank but its only in the twin scroll cars, well if they kept the numbering it would be a v9 crank lol) as these are nitrided and cross drilled for better oil distribution to the bearings.
To do it properly will cost you a fortune though, we are not talking 3-4k here, more like 8-10k, maybe a little more, but it depends what you have upgraded so far? clutch, brakes, gearbox will suffer, fmic so that basically means an after market ecu so you can go mafless, lots to think about.

Tony

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Tony everyone calling twin scroll crank STi v9
But agree with you on engine built.....


Jura

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Look at the project holisticaly in terms of cost.
What do you need to spend on the drive train
What do you need to spend on brakes
What do you need to spend on safety guages, knock detectors
Waht do you need to spend on ECU and mapping
Then add 10%

As others have said. Upgrade the rods before the crank.

Is it a 2.5? a 2.0?

Steve

KAS35RSTI

iTrader: (73)

IMHO your better off with a JDM STi 7 or 8 short block with uprated gaskets & headstuds. Will be good for 400+ all day long & also cheaper. The newage STi 7 & 8 blocks are SCD, so good for 500+. Further more regarding transmission a V6 STi box will happily hold 400ft lbs with some redline gear oil & magnetic drain plug.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Tom, you've not said what car and spec you're starting with, but IMHO (assuming you're paying someone else for a drive in and drive out solution) you're looking at 12.5k to get a Classic engine and drive train up to a reliable -and that's the key word- 400-450 bhp for all the forged goodies: you'll need rods, pistons, bearings, head studs, seals and gaskets, a turbo such as the SC46, a decent 3 inch exhaust, uprated fuel pump fuel pressure regulator and parallel fuel rail conversion, oil pump and oil cooler, front mount, induction kit, 6 speed or PPG conversion to handle the torque and a clutch such a an AP jobbie....... and a partridge in a pear tree!

Then -depending on what goodies you already have on the car- you have the brakes and suspension to consider.

350bhp on a classic can be done with a budget of of about 3k with no need to take the engine apart; makes for a very quick road car! I speak from experience.

Sincerely not trying to put you off mate, but go into it with your eyes open to the cost.

This level of power does not come cheap and it's a lot of dough to plow into a car that will be a minimum of 9 years old!

Regards,

Ns04

dunx

iTrader: (3)

For the cost of a CDB + machining you could get a whole (running) V7/8 STI motor, many have seen 450 bhp with a bolt-on turbo...

dunx

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

I have a 500bhp engine that will be ready shortly :-)....

Tony £8-£10k... I wish it was that much on a decent 2.35... I think I'll be WELL OVER £25k for my 500bhp 'upgrade' to xx bhp.... once its all done.. and thats without uprating the PPG.. (includes Suspension, rear diffs, brakes, etc, etc not just purely engine)

bigsinky

now thats an upgrade !!!!! been there mate, i feel your pain. another £450 for an external wastegate this month

LegacySTi

iTrader: (13)

Original OP your spec is a 420bhp advised area.

And lot questions on turbo choice and head bolt choice etc..

Change rods to forged in your spec.

sp00ks

iTrader: (11)

hey guys cheers for all of your input.

right bit more info too add and questions too answer:

car is a 99 uk turbo 2000
uprated Kevlar front and rear discs and pads
recentley re-conned 4 pots
5Zigen cat back exhaust (believe too be 2 3/4")
decat downpipe
do-luck panel filter
Whiteline solid rear droplinks
whiteline rear ARB
BC coilovers (fast road alignment)

i am aiming to do the engine build in two stages

engine step 1:
forged internals (CDB/ODB)
RCM headers & up-pipe
uprated oil pump
possibly STi 5 heads and cams

engine step 2:
larger injectors
RCM400/RCM420 turbo
simtek ecu

above is my intentions, im not bothered if i dont fully achieve 400BHP but my intentions are too have enough tourque that i do not experience much lag.

i just want too know if it is worthwhile utilising the CDB which is available over the ODB which i already have prepared which just needs honing to take new pistons.

i do have a budget too build this project hence why i am doing it in stages and really dont want too go over the top adding/replacing parts which aren't necessary...

any more input much appreciated

Sp00ks

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Mate,

Suggest you have a word with David at Api, but to be honest I reckon it'd be a much more financially sound move to sell the MY99, get yourself a nice Bugeye Sti (which still had proper forged internals IIRC) and then 400 bhp is in easy reach and you have the drive train to handle it!

A properly reliable 400 bhp for a UK classic is muchos money!

Alternatively, the MY99 can be safely modified to 350bhp and similar torque for MUCH less than 400bhp....how bad do you want that extra 50bhp?

Ns04

Stealth

iTrader: (4)

An STI 7, Sensible turbo, fuel pump and some sensible injectors + remap will see you at 400bhp without any stress what so ever and the gearbox is more than capable of doing the job etc etc

sp00ks

iTrader: (11)

mmmm not meaning to sound rude but what kind of advice is it to somebody when they ask for advice on an engine build to turn around and suggest to get a new car?
i like most of us owners have grown to love my car, and i cant simply see it being a better option especially with the modifications i have already invested in on my current car. (coilovers, whiteline goodies too name a few)

i dont want the extra 50bhp that baddly, the main reason too build a new engine with forged internals was so that the car would be much more reliable being driven hard at a higher power.
i dont specifically want 400+BHP but would like a nice reliable new engine run at higher boost than standard, rather than running higher boost on a 100k engine.

so what would the sensible suggestion be on building this engine, if i wanted too run upto under 400BHP would the spec above inside an ODB with STi 9 rods be sufficient?

many thanks for your help

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi matey some newage WRX can make 400BHP(i know one guy from SurreyScoobies)which running on std internal 400BHP for few k miles
For you will be sufficient STi rods,but i would you look for Eagle H Beam Rods
Here is link http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUBARU-EAGLE-C...#ht_1063wt_905

or these are good
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Impreza-forged...8#ht_720wt_905

Jura

Stealth

iTrader: (4)

What sort of advice is it ?

Not to sound patronising or rude,

Depends what way you look at it mate..... If you want the big power then it is sound advice and suggesting a sensible route for you to go, heavily modding an older car i.e. engine rebuilds for high power on a classic is not financially viable, you are going to out way the cost of your car by a considerable margain etc etc, do you really value your bond with your car in the £££ ?

You pointed out that you are aiming for 400bhp and not shoveling cash in to an older classic is sensible advice especially when you can get a slightly younger car for roughly the same price as it would cost to get your target figure.

Sorry - The answers are based on your initial information.

The engine spec you have outlined will be fine for 400bhp, not really need for a CDB, the other bits will be bucks

rossyboy

iTrader: (8)

Might be stating the obvious, but 400 bhp in a classic is a completely different thing to 400 bhp in a newage.

Power to weight means that a 400 bhp newage is equivalent to something like 330 in a classic.

sp00ks

iTrader: (11)

thanks both rossyboy and others for input!

my point exactly is that i love the subaru classic so want to put more power into a car that is styled too my liking!
rather than buying a car purely because it would be cheaper/easier too modify but in my eyes is not as nice as my current car.

stealth: that is exactly the advice i was after, so no need to fork out for a CDB when the ODB with forged internals would be sufficient ;-)

the main reason with going forged is that i want a more reliable 350+ engine, im just waiting for my mates V5 uk to go bang running 345bhp on standard untouched internals!!

anymore?

LegacySTi

iTrader: (13)

ODB is fine for 400bhp.

But still advise to min eagle forged rods as minimum when your at it.
11mm pump from a 2009 model hatch sti. new water pump and thermostat when your in there.

Wat head studs? And wat head gaskets? Wat pistons and wat commpression ratio you aiming for?

s5ooob

iTrader: (1)

When I had Harvey carry out a forged build on my V5 type R last year, I was advised that the original OD block was very capableof high outputs, if machined and built correctly, and more than adequate of supporting the 400-450bhp spec that I had outlined, in fact it was mentioned that I could now go up a couple of sizes in the turbo department .

The standard crank was also retained btw but reground and matched with the correct ACL bearings.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

People are just trying to help point out that a 400 bhp classic needs more supporting mods than say my V7 STI...

And you say you are on a budget, which will be blown out of the water by a clutch or gearbox failure.

My STI clutch gave up at 360 ft.lb.s and cost £1K to replace, add in a gearbox and your budget is dead.

As for the engine, forge everything, forget the headers at 350 bhp and source ported OE from Harvey on here, a VF 35 with all the rest may get you 350 bhp, which your clutch and gearbox may manage for a while.

And good luck with the build.

dunx

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

Cheapest option is sell the car and buy one with over the power limit you want If I was getting the engine done I would get it built on a CDB and use the 2.5crank as you don't want to be paying for more builds due to bad judgement trust me and most people always want more power so your sort of future proofing your self. As for the other parts you will need to support the power your just going to have to suck it and see

sp00ks

iTrader: (11)

mmm cheers guys!

The intentions are as said upgrade engine and running gear, then replace turbo and injectors, and then finally replace clutch after engine is nicely run in.

Have seen a few interesting threads by harvey which quote that he has many cars running on ODB with over 400bhp on the standard gearbox.

So do you guys definately not reccomend sticking with the STI V9 rods and going for something stronger?

could someone point me to a good 350-400bhp build spec then please?

cheers

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

If your going to do it then do it properly, the new age STI rods (MY01 onwards as there are no versions here) are stronger than previous models, but you want reliable power and for the cost of new v new there isnt much in it, ok get a second hand set, how much stress have they been put through? do you want to take that risk?

As for a 330bhp classic being as quick as a 400bhp new age sorry, been up against a 340bhp classic v 316bhp new age and not much in it in real world situations, people seem to forget that CD and gearing play a big part, yes the new age is heavier hence why no classic has a quicker 1/4 mile/terminal time over a new age 280ps car (13.3@104mph is the quickest subaru japan quoted 1/4 mile time for a classic v 13 dead at 108mph for a new age), power to weight eh

Tony

trails

iTrader: (41)

Spooks, you will need a gearbox first; no point upgrading to 400\400 or even 350\350 as you will destroy your standard UK box. An sti 5\6\P1 box will be at the very limit at 400lbs\ft if it dosen't break before that, PPG or 6 speed for peace of mind.

Alternativly stick to 330\330 or so max and you should just be able to use bolt ons...although be aware I broke three UK boxes at sub 300 lbs\ft.

Ian

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Must have been Homer Simpson in the classic & Jenson Button in the new age

TX.