methanol use
16 August 2010, 12:05 AM
#1
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methanol use
ok, so im aware of the advantages of methanol use as a fuel mix for power gains etc. but as the use of this fuel will help to bring down combustion temperarures does that mean this can be used in say an engine designed for circa 400hp without having to do extensive internals work/modifications or is it still necessary to build a higher spec engine?
16 August 2010, 09:07 AM
#3
If you use it as an octane booster in 5%-10% mixes then you should be OK on a standard car without mapping purely as an octane booster, and with mapping it should make a healthy difference to DET resistance, specially if you have a few mods to go with it whether newage or classic scoob.
If you're going to start using it in 15%-20%+ mixes you've got to get mapping done and over 20%-30% mixes you should think about the components directly flowing and using the fuel. There may be some issues long term as Methanol is not only Hygroscopic (attracts water) but is pretty corrosive too.
I'm sure there are people on here currently using Methanol in high mixes over long periods that can advise better. I've been using it in 20% mixes together with Toluene but that's just short term although i didn't detect any issues and even when it was left for weeks in the tank while my car was off the road everything seemed fine.
I haven't pulled all my hoses and pipes out, removed the injectors or inspected my bores recently to have a closer look, and it may well have had some adverse affect but ordinarily i've not noticed anything untoward.
If you're going to start using it in 15%-20%+ mixes you've got to get mapping done and over 20%-30% mixes you should think about the components directly flowing and using the fuel. There may be some issues long term as Methanol is not only Hygroscopic (attracts water) but is pretty corrosive too.
I'm sure there are people on here currently using Methanol in high mixes over long periods that can advise better. I've been using it in 20% mixes together with Toluene but that's just short term although i didn't detect any issues and even when it was left for weeks in the tank while my car was off the road everything seemed fine.
I haven't pulled all my hoses and pipes out, removed the injectors or inspected my bores recently to have a closer look, and it may well have had some adverse affect but ordinarily i've not noticed anything untoward.
Last edited by scoobiewrx555; 16 August 2010 at 09:09 AM.
16 August 2010, 09:14 AM
#4
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If you use it as an octane booster in 5%-10% mixes then you should be OK on a standard car without mapping purely as an octane booster, and with mapping it should make a healthy difference to DET resistance, specially if you have a few mods to go with it whether newage or classic scoob.
If you're going to start using it in 15%-20%+ mixes you've got to get mapping done and over 20%-30% mixes you should think about the components directly flowing and using the fuel. There may be some issues long term as Methanol is not only Hygroscopic (attracts water) but is pretty corrosive too.
I'm sure there are people on here currently using Methanol in high mixes over long periods that can advise better. I've been using it in 20% mixes together with Toluene but that's just short term although i didn't detect any issues and even when it was left for weeks in the tank while my car was off the road everything seemed fine.
I haven't pulled all my hoses and pipes out though to inspect them closely, and it may well have had some adverse affect but ordinarily i've not noticed anything untoward.
If you're going to start using it in 15%-20%+ mixes you've got to get mapping done and over 20%-30% mixes you should think about the components directly flowing and using the fuel. There may be some issues long term as Methanol is not only Hygroscopic (attracts water) but is pretty corrosive too.
I'm sure there are people on here currently using Methanol in high mixes over long periods that can advise better. I've been using it in 20% mixes together with Toluene but that's just short term although i didn't detect any issues and even when it was left for weeks in the tank while my car was off the road everything seemed fine.
I haven't pulled all my hoses and pipes out though to inspect them closely, and it may well have had some adverse affect but ordinarily i've not noticed anything untoward.
Personally, direct injection via intake manifold has a lot of cooling properties and certainly mixing with SUL in the 10% or 20% range will give a better det tolerance and i agree that fuel lines need to be checked frequently for wear.
16 August 2010, 09:34 AM
#5
this is ok with a forged engine. there is no way a tired 15 year old wrx engine is going to run 400bhp with or without meth for any length of time. i think we need to establish make, model and year before we can advise.
Personally, direct injection via intake manifold has a lot of cooling properties and certainly mixing with SUL in the 10% or 20% range will give a better det tolerance and i agree that fuel lines need to be checked frequently for wear.
Personally, direct injection via intake manifold has a lot of cooling properties and certainly mixing with SUL in the 10% or 20% range will give a better det tolerance and i agree that fuel lines need to be checked frequently for wear.
I wouldn't advise anyone with a tired old classic WRX to attempt to run 400bhp without a proper rebuild whatever fuel they run, same for someone with a newage WRX. By and by that's pretty much common sense, widely known and established fact these days.
16 August 2010, 10:20 AM
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They get awful, and i mean truely awful advice and then are totally disillusioned with the whole "subaru" thing. They will not consult someone who knows what they are doing and go and buy needless tat like dump valves and turbo timers or a cheap fleabay turbo and then want 500HP on a budget of £700. Some of the posts i have seen on here over the last 7-8 years on here absolutely beggar belief.
Last edited by bigsinky; 16 August 2010 at 10:21 AM.
16 August 2010, 10:24 AM
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I fully agree with what you have said in general terms. sound advice.
Trust me you would be surprised what bull$hit people hear down in pubs. they think with a bit of meth they can run their 93 wrx at 400 hp and then wonder why their engine calves itself. while there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum, sometimes its a case of monkey see monkey do (no disrespect to the OP btw) because of what they heard from their mate (who is a well know subaru mechanic and an advanced mapper) down the pub.
They get awful, and i mean truely awful advice and then are totally disillusioned with the whole "subaru" thing. They will not consult someone who knows what they are doing and go and buy needless tat like dump valves and turbo timers or a cheap fleabay turbo and then want 500HP on a budget of £700. Some of the posts i have seen on here over the last 7-8 years on here absolutely beggar belief.
Trust me you would be surprised what bull$hit people hear down in pubs. they think with a bit of meth they can run their 93 wrx at 400 hp and then wonder why their engine calves itself. while there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum, sometimes its a case of monkey see monkey do (no disrespect to the OP btw) because of what they heard from their mate (who is a well know subaru mechanic and an advanced mapper) down the pub.
They get awful, and i mean truely awful advice and then are totally disillusioned with the whole "subaru" thing. They will not consult someone who knows what they are doing and go and buy needless tat like dump valves and turbo timers or a cheap fleabay turbo and then want 500HP on a budget of £700. Some of the posts i have seen on here over the last 7-8 years on here absolutely beggar belief.
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16 August 2010, 10:39 AM
#8
I think the OP was looking at a version 5 type r a while back.
5% methanol as an octane booster is 'ok' (check with your mapper first disclaimer) but I wouldnt be going any higher than that without mapping for it as that will be leaning out the afr noticeably.
I have run up to 50% methanol. Nasty stuff but works well enough.
5% methanol as an octane booster is 'ok' (check with your mapper first disclaimer) but I wouldnt be going any higher than that without mapping for it as that will be leaning out the afr noticeably.
I have run up to 50% methanol. Nasty stuff but works well enough.
16 August 2010, 10:42 AM
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16 August 2010, 10:47 AM
#11
The tank and in tank walbro are as normal.
I wouldnt want to leave large quantities of methanol in the tank though so would alternative 50/50 mix with vpower only. Not easy to do unless you have a proper ecu though.
Personally though I wouldnt recommend more than a 20% methanol mix.
However I have left my car with 100% E85 (if that isnt a contradiction in terms) for weeks on end with no apparent side effects apart from withdrawal symptoms from not driving it.
16 August 2010, 11:26 AM
#15
I've just had a look at my old logs and spreadsheet dyno.
I went from 301wbhp-310wbhp and 303wftlb-314wftlb with just a little bit more timing and boost. Most evident was how much smoother and stronger it felt mid range and most notable was the turbo spoolling just a little bit earlier which was a bonus. Even with AVCS, running a 20G on a 2ltr is still not the best until you're up in 4th and 5th so any earlier spool in 3rd is welcome.
*Note: Figures quoted are wheel brake horse and wheel torque, not engine power figures.
I went from 301wbhp-310wbhp and 303wftlb-314wftlb with just a little bit more timing and boost. Most evident was how much smoother and stronger it felt mid range and most notable was the turbo spoolling just a little bit earlier which was a bonus. Even with AVCS, running a 20G on a 2ltr is still not the best until you're up in 4th and 5th so any earlier spool in 3rd is welcome.
*Note: Figures quoted are wheel brake horse and wheel torque, not engine power figures.
16 August 2010, 01:54 PM
#17
My car has never been on a RR Dyno nor will it ever more than likely, that is unless i really need to which so far i haven't.
I think you kind of know my setup, which isn't too disimilar to your own however, my figures are generated either using a Spreadsheet Dyno, with wheel bhp and torque figures calculated from my logs by the spreadsheet dyno, or the road dyno facility my logging software provides. However, i prefer using logs and the spreadsheet to calculate numbers derived from figures taken whilst logging on the road. Hope that's a bit clearer.
What other information apart from the figures reported by the ECU that i log, Wideband AFR's, listening for DET, and bum dyno do you want to know about when dealing with oxygenated fuels? It's a fairly standard car apart from a few mods and nothing special really. No thermocouple for charge air temps just std IAT like 1000's of other Subaru's on UK roads.
All you asked was how much power was it making on 20% Meth on the dyno and i told you based upon the dyno i use. If i used a RR Dyno as often as i use my road Dyno software and spreadsheets i've no doubt the costs would cripple most of us unless you get heavily discounted or free RR use.
How much more is a rolling road going to tell me that would seriously affect the end results? I appreciate you use RR quite a bit as well as heavily oxygenated fuels so if there is an appreciable difference i might change my mind about using RR's.
I think you kind of know my setup, which isn't too disimilar to your own however, my figures are generated either using a Spreadsheet Dyno, with wheel bhp and torque figures calculated from my logs by the spreadsheet dyno, or the road dyno facility my logging software provides. However, i prefer using logs and the spreadsheet to calculate numbers derived from figures taken whilst logging on the road. Hope that's a bit clearer.
All you asked was how much power was it making on 20% Meth on the dyno and i told you based upon the dyno i use. If i used a RR Dyno as often as i use my road Dyno software and spreadsheets i've no doubt the costs would cripple most of us unless you get heavily discounted or free RR use.
How much more is a rolling road going to tell me that would seriously affect the end results? I appreciate you use RR quite a bit as well as heavily oxygenated fuels so if there is an appreciable difference i might change my mind about using RR's.
16 August 2010, 05:42 PM
#19
Francis - the difference you will see in power is not something you will see in a maf g/sec figure as the extra oxygen is in the fuel itself.
The extra timing can be worth more power but it is very possible to go beyond the point of peak power when using proper fuel.
Dyno is worth it IMO.
The extra timing can be worth more power but it is very possible to go beyond the point of peak power when using proper fuel.
Dyno is worth it IMO.
16 August 2010, 07:04 PM
#21
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ok guys maybe i wasnt too clear in my original post lol. car is a my99 v5 sti type r, currently running 380/380, md321h turbo @ 1.48 bar, uprated pump, injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fmic etc etc. as you would expect to find in line with a proper job for this spec. as far as i am aware no engine rebuild/mods. what i was trying to discover is if it is possible to use methanol in around a 20% mix in order to gain the extra power without having to build a new engine 1st - one minute chaps - the reason i ask is that methanol greatly reduces det and also combustion temperatures, which should therefore increase engine life/reliability, or am i living in a dream world, and have to get my savings out afterall lol. i am perfectly aware that mapping and possibly larger turbo and supports may be required.
Last edited by no1nutter; 16 August 2010 at 07:05 PM. Reason: mistake
16 August 2010, 07:26 PM
#22
Or does that 5% not really 'erode' the AFR all that much, regardless?
Last edited by joz8968; 16 August 2010 at 07:55 PM.
17 August 2010, 08:03 AM
#24
All you asked was how much power was it making on 20% Meth on the dyno and i told you based upon the dyno i use. If i used a RR Dyno as often as i use my road Dyno software and spreadsheets i've no doubt the costs would cripple most of us unless you get heavily discounted or free RR use.
How much more is a rolling road going to tell me that would seriously affect the end results? I appreciate you use RR quite a bit as well as heavily oxygenated fuels so if there is an appreciable difference i might change my mind about using RR's.
How much more is a rolling road going to tell me that would seriously affect the end results? I appreciate you use RR quite a bit as well as heavily oxygenated fuels so if there is an appreciable difference i might change my mind about using RR's.
The dyno costs are not too bad tbh and well worth it.
26 April 2011, 07:24 PM
#25
Thread Revival 
Thats some amazing statistics from a 20% mix, and im guessing it was with a standard VF35 or VF37 too 
.
Hi Duncan, Im just looking into Methanol properly really for the first time. What kind of gains from your experience are you seeing in general terms, I know it will vary from car to car, and from spec to spec, but you will have some idea? I currently have a 2002 UK STI, GT30 (standard position), 3" decat with H&S headers and other supporting mods to get me close to 400..... intrigue me please
Rob
.Road dynos are good to show an improvement (or not) if you can use the exact same 100% flat piece of road, have exact wind and atmospheric conditions and have the exact weight of the car. Any variance in those and the results can be skewed.
The dyno costs are not too bad tbh and well worth it.
The dyno costs are not too bad tbh and well worth it.
Rob
26 April 2011, 08:41 PM
#27
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In answer to your question Rob, in my experience of meth mixes, a 20% mix will generally give an extra 7-10 % power/torque.
Martyn
Martyn
26 April 2011, 09:41 PM
#30
It is great stuff. Just bare in mind that it can be a bit of a nuisance carrying the meth with you everywhere you go! I either carry a 10litre jerry can or 5litre full of meth, and obviously fill 40litres of V-Power with the 10litre, or 20 with the 5litre 
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