Sabas

iTrader: (22)

Is this safer for cars currently with TMIC, I know the main reason is power,

but will it help the engine also?

Which FMIC is best will a £300 one do as good or last as long as say, a £500

one, what types are there, Autobahn, GT2?

Thanks

b16msu265

iTrader: (6)

Hi Sabas the fmic just helps the engine breath better and keeps the car alot cooler and with a nice exhaust and cold feed with a remap of cause the car will be more responsive. if you dont do any of the above i think your AFR gets messed up. The prices do change from place to place but to be fare its the same thing. Looked at ScoobyWorlds FMIC Autobhan GT2, Roger Clark and the best revue has been Japspeed normally £300 or £350 i think but if you go to Traders and type Japspeed then look at what they offer in the group buy section there doing it for £200 for a full kit, thats what you call cheap as chips hope this helps lol

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

The FMIC helps to keep the incoming air temperature down. The cooler the air is, the denser it is and the more oxygen it has to burn your fuel.

If you actually measured the temperature of the air being forced into the engine by your turbo, you'd get a shock, believe me.

Read some of the research Harvey Smith, who posts as Harvey, on here, has done

Andy916

iTrader: (8)

Hybrid FMIC from Harvey (knowledgable helpful hands-on specialist rather than box-shifter).

Use the search function.

Andy916

iTrader: (8)

Hybrid FMIC from Harvey (knowledgable helpful hands-on specialist rather than box-shifter).

Use the search function.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

thanks for the replies

I'm guessing also, the more expensive, the better the fit/quality?

Is it too much for an engine on 125,000 plus?

Splitpin

That may be true as a generalisation, but as with all rules, there are exceptions, and in any case, the answers you have received on this thread to date, while well-meaning, are incomplete and potentially misleading.

As has been said the intercooler Harvey sells is a good one but nobody on this thread has so far encouraged you to ask yourself the right questions. Front mount intercoolers have some advantages over top mounts, but they have disadvantages too. Everything is a compromise.

It isn't really correct to think that moving to a front mount intercooler will automatically make your car run better/safer. It could well make it less safe, and less good to drive, if you're not careful. Depending on what you have, its state of tune, and the way you drive it, you may well be better off leaving it standard, or fitting a different top mount IC.

If you simply want to make your car "safer", spending the equivalent amount of money on some engine monitoring instrumentation would probably be a better bet.

You need to tell us what car you've got and what you want to do with it you have before we can give you a considered recommendation. Anyone going off at half-**** prior to that point is, with the best will in the world, guessing with your car and money.

If, as per some of your other recent posts, you have a 1997MY UK car with a TD04 turbo, you'd probably be better sticking with a top mount IC due to the negative effects on throttle response you will find when switching to a front mount (with much higher inlet tract volume). As above, everything is a compromise. If you want proper advice, it starts from you telling us some stuff.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

It's a 1997 uk turbo, don't particularly want/need anymore power, so far it's 305 bhp with a vf23 with a vf24 compressor wheel mapped by JGM on and apexi ecu, walbro, ported headers/up-pipe and full decat, 440's, sti (classic) top mount and apexi induction kit

Splitpin

If I were you I'd forget about changing the intercooler in the short term. At the performance level you are at there would be minimal advantage.

If you want to spend some money in the charge area, get yourself a charge air temperature gauge - so you can actually see what's happening in real time. That way you can either satisfy yourself that everything's (literally) cool, or, work out exactly how much of an issue you might be dealing with.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

do you have a link to one, or can you tell me who does them, thanks

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Air charge temperature guage is £82.50 delivered.
Hybrid FMICs from £270 plus delivery.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

Thanks Harvey, what do you think I should look at doing?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Fit a front mount intercooler. Do it right, do it once. £270 for the Hybrid GT.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

would it push the engine closer to blowing up,I think the clutch would give out first though?

Tazman861

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to hijack your thread but I am really confused??? If I am reading correctly, you have 305bhp and have been recommended a FMIC. I have 287bhp and will possibly move to Spain where the ambient temp is much higher than the UK. I was told NOT to fit a FMIC???

I was hoping that a FMIC would help lower inlet temps and make the car safer when using boost in a hot country, maybe I am missing something??

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Sabas : What model and year please.

Air charge temp guage is £82.50.

The point at which you need a frontmount will vary from model to model. Subaru have improved the intercooling on the Impreza model on model all the way from 1993-2010.
Generally ver 1 and 2 are struggling beyond 280 bhp and ver 3 and 4 are struggling before 320 bhp. An actual example, STi 3 at 335 bhp and ACTs off the clock beyond 70C in the sprint from 0-100.
STi 5 and 6. Good gains to be had beyond 320 bhp.
STi 7. Stay with the top mount until 350 bhp.
STi 8 Actual example. ACTs in the 50s at 370 odd bhp so the pundits that tell you these are good for 400 bhp probably have done no serious testing but there is the possibility they have scientifically used their hand to feel the intercooler temperature on the end tanks.
I ran a car flat out with STi 8 TMIC and got 392 bhp. Temps of around 44C. Took the car away, fitted a Hybrid GT (£270) and returned to the rolling road. No mapping adjustments and we had 401 bhp on our second run. Warmer day and temps in the 20s.
A short mapping sesionand we had 410 bhp.
Hybrid GT £270. Hybrid GT2 £325. The GT2 will not outperform the GT but has slightly bigger end tanks.
Now I also have an APS FMIC on one of the cars. At the time this FMIC cost £1140. During mapping Bob Rawle has commented on something I have already observrd. The Hybrid tube and fin FMICs hold temperatures closer to ambient than the APS bar and plate.
Now these are the facts as I know them to be from extensive testing. Anyone else that has done extensive testing will have come to the same conclusions. Without an ACT guage to monitor temperatures you are not in receipt of adequate accurate information to know accurately what is happening.

Tidgy

not sure why you would want to keep the top mount with ambient air so high. front mounted is by far the best place to have the intercooler, the hoitter the climate the more benefit.

Splitpin

Can you quantify the benefit with actual numbers? (serious question).

Tazman861

iTrader: (2)

Tidgy, I don't know if I want/need to keep the top mount. From everything I have read I would have thought that a FMIC would have helped keep down inlet temps. I have sent PMs to Harvey, JGM and Dynamix but so far only Harvey has responded and he said not to bother with the power level on my car - I think he has missed the point, I am not looking for power gains (would be nice) but looking at stopping the engine from destroying itself due to heat sink.

Splitpin

The reason why I asked Tidgy if he can quantify the "benefits" he's described is that there's far too much scaremongering about "heatsoak" round these parts.

There are theoretical benefits to a front mount IC, and definitely there are times when they're better than the alternative, but there are theoretical disadvantages too. Subaru has spent a load of R&D money over the last couple of decades testing out this stuff, and the fact that the cars still, after all these years, come fitted with a top mount, even when sold in very hot markets, should tell you something.

If it was as dangerous to the engine as you make out, Subaru wouldn't sell cars into hot climates with a TMIC, as they costs they would incur via warranted engine repairs would, many years ago, have proved so great that they'd be forced to change the charge cooling configuration simply to control their aftersale costs.

If you've already asked Harvey the question, his answer's as good as you'll get, short of doing as suggested earlier and getting yourself a method of actually monitoring the charge air temperature rather than responding to something that is more than likely a negligible risk. What MY and type of car do you have? As he's already said, the later cars have better intercoolers as standard and thus the answer that fits best for your situation might be different depending on whether you had, for example, a 93MY classic or an 07MY hawkeye.

Tazman861

iTrader: (2)

Hi Splitpin, Thanks for the reply, My car is a 96 WRX with the slanty intercooler. I didn't mean to say that the engine will destroy itself but I want to take precautions before I get to Spain and then try to fit a FMIC and have it mapped out there!!

I also have a V3/4 STi intercooler with undertray to fit (plus a polar performance chip, will allow 97RON fuel), and the car has the larger STi 8 scoop which I do believe lets more air into the intercooler. I know an STi 8 intercooler is probably the best bet as a re map wouldn't be needed as even the ESL daughter board will add some £500 to a FMIC install.

I am looking for opinions from the knowledgable peeps on this site.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Something else to help you guys over and above fitting an air charge temperature guage which gives loads of useful information.
For every 4 degrees C. change in ACT equates to 1% power so on a 400 bhp car if you drop or increase ACTs by 32C you have added or reduced power by 8% ie. the difference between 368 bhp or 432 bhp.
I have used 4 deg.C for 1% power for several years and it works out approximately on all the cars I have worked on.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

Harvey, it's a 1997 uk turbo, just on 126,000 miles, the apexi ecu reads 3 or 4 max when driving round, would a fmic be more stressful for the engine?

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Sorry for the "jumping in" aimed at Harvey >

I have an 06 Hawkeye STI Spec C, Turbo Dymnamics LM420 S60, 800cc injectors, RCM induction kit and I am getting 420 bhp. I was informed that if I considered going to the Nurburgring and doing long flat out runs I should fit a FMIC because of heat soak? I am very interested in starting to do track days in the very near future.

I would like your opinion on were I am at and safety? I am very interested in the monitoring device you guys have been discussing, something to actually look at which tells me back off!! bit like a knock link sensor.

I have tried understanding the comments listed, but what is "ACT"? and what is the ideal number to be running at and were does it get dodgy?? if they were stupid questions I apologise

Lee.

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

ACT I think is 'air charge temperature' which is the temperature of the air going into the intercooler, I was also going to ask what temperature it should be/ is good for it and from which temperature is it bad?

Splitpin

If someone has told you that you are at risk of "heat soak", specifically, at high speed, they're talking out of their proverbials. Heat soak is a phenomenon that occurs when your car is stationary. When there's no airflow going through the scoop, there's nothing to counteract the heat radiating upwards out of the engine and into the intercooler, thereby decreasing its effectiveness.

So, you don't get heatsoak at very high speed, but you can experience a situation where the airflow into the bonnet scoop can start to be affected by aerodynamic flow over the bonnet, and the pressure inside the engine bay itself caused by air going in through the bumper and grille. This was an issue with the classics - at high three figure speeds, but Subaru have theoretically improved this through the iterations of the newage, so exactly how much your '06 car suffers is not something I'm aware of.

Exactly. A charge air temperature gauge will tell you exactly what's going on, and, as you say, either allow you to continue driving with confidence, or, let you know you need to back off (or, in practice, take it a little easier away from the traffic lights on a hot day). If you end up doing a lot of backing off, you can decide how to address the problem.

The ideal number to run at is clearly when your charge air temperature (i.e. the temp at the throttle body) is the same as the air entering the induction tract - as this means your intercooler is working with 100% efficiency.

As Harvey suggests earlier any increase over and above that results in a loss of power, and beyond a certain point, depending on how your engine is mapped, can push it beyond the point where it is running safely. It's impossible for us to tell you now what safe/typical values for your car would be - only way to tell would be to monitor it first hand and work out what constitutes a safe (or otherwise) envelope.

edit:
No, it's the temperature of the air coming out of the IC/ into the inlet manifold. Nothing stopping you monitoring the temperature out of the turbo as well if you really want to, but beyond researching intercooler efficiency, it doesn't tell you anything you need to know.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

^^^^^^^^^^^:notworth y

I am assuming you & Harvey specialise in this field, were abouts are you guys based?? I bet its knowhere near Lancashire.

Splitpin

Nothing good is anywhere near Lancashire.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

oi oi

Sabas

iTrader: (22)

I have so much to learn! So is it too much putting one on my 126,000 mile classic, or would I have to get an ACT guage to find out?