Tomwrxppp

after trip to scooby clinic yesterday for geometery setup( done v well) got most of way home to rotherham n car got a tappin noise relative to speed of engine. semms to be comin from back left of engine bay, car still has what appears to be same power, however only been drivin cautiously, noise appears to be gettin worse n dunt sound cheap. anyone have any ideas as to what it could be, car is an 03 plate wrx with ppp, 58k on it n belt was done at 35k if this helps

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Could be tappets, but it is difficult to diagnose without hearing it.

When was the oil last changed? If it has been a while get that done and it may well clear it. Also check your oil level, again if it's low the tappets may not fill up.

Hopefully it'll be something fairly painless

Tomwrxppp

had oil n filter done 3 days ago matey n sounds a lot louder than what tapits would be more clunky kinda noise n it came on all of a sudden n got worse since, i had a intermitent sheerin noise comin when comin off gas before, dunno if this was sign of somethin on its way out but car felt fine so ignored it like a duck egg. keepin it off road until i can get it to garage on tuesday, just ordered a td05 20g for it n all. gutted

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

who did the oil change and did they do the correct method off changing it

Splitpin

You're right to suggest that this is almost impossible to diagnose without hearing it, but your attempt to explain it is more than a bit pie in the sky.

Impreza engines haven't had hydraulic tappets since the 1996MY (2003MY WRX has solid shimless lifters), and even on the ones that did, a low oil level won't cause them to "not fill up", unless the sump is almost dry - at which point it's not just the valvetrain that's suffering oil starvation.

The oil is drawn almost from the bottom of the sump, so provided there's enough in there to cover the pickup, hydraulic tappets, on cars that have them, will "fill up" the same if the sump is almost empty as they will if it is brim full.

If the oil level on this one is low enough that the pickup has run dry, then it's probably a lot more than the valvetrain that's been damaged. And, as the lifters on these engines are solid, any sudden tapping cannot simply be explained by a noisy tappet.

Tom, you are right to be cautious. Unfortunately this kind of thing simply cannot be diagnosed over the internet. If you have any more info you can give us about the location of the noise (is it left as you look from the driver's seat, or left from the front of the bonnet, for example?), then that might help rule some explanations in or out. Really though you need to get the car looked at ASAP by someone who knows what to listen for, and avoid starting it in the meantime.

Splitpin

Uh oh, that could be nail on head time.

DIPSY

Have you got a long stick or screwdriver for a listening device to pin point were noise is coming from ie bonnet up engine running

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

I was aware that there was some with solid and hydraulic, but I didn't know when they changed. My bug has solid shimmed ones and they need shimming up at the moment. I've just had the cambelt done too

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Never had a problem with mine and never done any of these daft rain dances after an oil change. Pre-fill the filter, fill the engine oil and start.

Works on every other car I have owned.

Tomwrxppp

it seems to be turbo side, makes noise wether in gear or not cluutch or out, im far from a mechanic, oil done at a friends garage, long established n trusted plus wasnt low before change n is still plenty in now, car drives fine, can feel some very slight feedback thru clutch pedal if this helps

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

i hope it has been done correctly because the amount off threads on here about blobeyes going **** up after a oil change frightens me and mine is due

DaveBeck

iTrader: (12)

A good point.

Hopefully they filled the filter with oil before replacing and used right oil

Sounds like more than a coincidence that 3 days after your oil is changed you have possibly got bottom end failure.

does it do it while warm/all the time?

Tomwrxppp

thinkin on on way bk from havin oil done i took it bk due to some smoke comin from un der turbo, nothin leakin n obv no oil on engine near there due to location of filler n sump, stopped smokin after 10 mins n we put it down to this fatty puttin some wd40 on brake lines from under car n some of it gettin under turbo, wunder if owt damaged by that, cant see it tho

Splitpin

...says the bloke who talks about hydraulic tappets on an '03 WRX...


Pulling the crank sensor and turning it over on the starter takes all of a minute and reduces the chances of transient oil starvation causing problems like this. One presumes "every other car you have owned" doesn't have an EJ series engine in it?

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

So when the car sits overnight (or in my case probably all week) and all of the oil drains into the sump, I should unplug the crank sensor and turn the engine over, dumping unburnt fuel into the bores because there's no spark introducing bore wash, because the oil is in no different condition to where it would be after topping the oil up and letting it run into the sump

Splitpin

Where did you take it to have the oil done, and is it somewhere with experience of these engines? As has been mentioned above there is a "right" way to do the job on an EJ engine, and unfortunately a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that skipping those steps can result in engine damage.

Shouldn't have been, no. Even if it was a clumsy mechanic dropping oil, WD40 or something else onto the engine, it shouldn't cause any problem for the internals, if that's what's gone wrong.

Splitpin

Would sir like the full humiliation or just gently pointing out the errors in your assumptions?

Firstly, when the car sits overnight, all the oil does *not* drain into the sump. The pump and oil pickup pipe, as well as the filter and most of the galleries, remain primed. This is not the case immediately after an oil change, when the pickup will run dry (albeit only for a couple of seconds), and immediately it and the pump reprimes, shove a slug of air under pressure through the galleries and bearings.

Given that the ECU has no way of knowing this, you will end up with combustion forces acting against bearings that may or may not have oil in them.

Secondly, you won't "dump unburnt fuel into the bores" because disconnecting the crank sensor doesn't just stop it sparking, it stops it injecting too.

Next...

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

You do it your way...

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

heard these stories so many times apprentice not doing the job right not his fault just these garages who dont do things right mines going to prosport for oil change dont wanna run the risk

Splitpin

You make a prize idiot of yourself in public and that's the best you can come up with?

Still, the unintended value of this is that more people will probably end up doing it "my way" as a result of seeing the obvious errors in your comments pointed out, so probably not a bad thing all in all.

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

that is the correct way to do it splitpin and you are clued up about them

Tomwrxppp

what is correct way of changing oil? i am useless wi engines hence y dunt do it mi sen, all i know is that he drained oil, lubed up new filter n replaced oil. no idea how much he has done on ej20's before, didnt know it was sumthin i shud go to specialist for, 2nd wrx n love drivin em wud like to learn more bout engines n tunin just struggle wi time but hopefully il smarten up abit from u lads on here, help is appreciated thanks

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

split pin will advise you but that is partialy right did he fill the filter disconnect the cam sensor you just cant take these cars tu bk street garages

DIPSY

The two specialist garages i have watched do a oil change on my previous subaru and the one i have now .The only thing different they do is prefill the oil filter and thats it

Tomwrxppp

sorry m8 i dunno nowt bout cam sensors or owt, is this a likely cause of internal damage if he didnt? scooby clinic only from now on for me. cant say i noticed him do owt else n he never mentioned it but i wasnt watchin him all time. have to sort sumat out wi em, owner is a good m8 o mine n the garage is massive n deals wi lots of motors for land rover n other main dealers n stuff so thought id be right there, what sort of cost is it for a new/ 2nd hand block if thats what im likely to need, cant believe sumat so simple can cause big probs.(if thats what it is of course)

dj219957

well said,
absolutly agree. this agrgument (changing oil is the same as leaving overnight) has been used by a few on here and is wrong

Splitpin

On these cars the safest way to do it is firstly to fill the new filter up before fitting, and then to disconnect the crankshaft position sensor and turn the engine over on the starter until the oil pressure light goes out (plus a bit longer). This helps oil circulation and pressure to re-establish before the engine is exposed to combustion forces.

[quote]i am useless wi engines hence y dunt do it mi sen, all i know is that he drained oil, lubed up new filter n replaced oil.[quote]

Yeah, that's the way that mechanics who don't know any better would do it. Unfortunately you run some risk without the extra steps, and it sounds as though you may have found out the hard way.

It can be if you're unlucky, yeah. When you start the engine normally, the ECU only allows it to rotate for about three or four revs before switching on the fuel and spark. That isn't long enough to be sure of establishing some oil pressure when air has been introduced into the oilways.

This is one of those issues that you wouldn't know about without doing a fair bit of work on Subarus, so the fact that you took it to a non-specialist explains a lot.

Wait and see re. the price of repairs. First thing you need is a reasonably accurate diagnosis.

This is one of those things you can get away with time and again, but you only need to get on the wrong side of it once in order to really ruin your day.
I daresay those specialists would be pleased to take your money for an engine rebuild if and when you get bitten so to a certain extent they don't really give a t*ss whether it helps or not. You'll find plenty of specialists (and more than a few main dealers) who do it.

The bottom line is to think of this as an insurance policy. The reasons why it's a good idea to crank the car over have already been explained above. It costs you about a minute and might save you what it sounds like Tom is dealing with. Worth thinking over...

DIPSY

and just start the car and let it idle switch leave for a bit then check the oil level .Never had any problems in the 9 years of owning a subaru

Splitpin

As above, you only need to have this problem once for it to really give you a headache. And you also, short of stripping your engine, have no way of knowing whether the 9 years of "getting away with it so far" caused any minor metal to metal contact sufficient to set up trouble further down the road.

This forum is littered with stories about engines suffering bearing failure within a few minutes/hours/handful of days of an oil change. Do you really think that's a coincidence? Cranking the engine is an insurance policy that is easy to do, does nothing bad, and can save you that feeling Tom is dealing with at the moment.

DIPSY

No mention of disconnecting crankshaft postion sensor in workshop cd .There is still oil about the engine after draining the oil in the crankshaft bearing etc