benspray

Hi All..

So....
Ive bought a roger clark WRC engine and curently having it rebuilt as it had melted a piston due to a bad map (bought it like this as the guy was fed up with spending on it). what can I expect from it as far as drivabilty as a road car - rough spec as follows?!

Fully forged bottom end, with the bronze fire rings and the O ring head gasket conversion done on the heads. Heads are fully ported and polished and have some massive lift billet cams which I believe are stage 3 looks to have had some work done on the area around the valves as well, some form of uprated timing belt pulleys/belt hugger, tubular headers, what I believe is probably a v1/2 sti intake which is polished internally (not quite sure how this will all fit in my v3 yet?!) lightened flywheel and pulleys, high capacity alloy baffled and winged sump, modified injectors and probably more that I have forgotten about.
Ive bought a hydra nemisis to control it and will be going to tracktive to get it mapped once its ready.

Turbo choice / boost levels?
Clutch choice?
Im guessing brake/wheel/tyre choice will need some thought (running standand subaru 4 pots and 205 tyres on 16s at the mo) was planning to fit the later brembo 4 pots and 2 pot rears?
Exhaust system choice (dont want anything too loud)
anything I need to think about in getting this into a v3 type r?

Basically want something that is fairly drivable still but making some decent power when I want it (one reason I went for the hydra as it can be mapped for different fuels as well as different boost levels so hopefully I can have a 95 octane low boost map for regular use - and one happened to come up for sale on here for good money

Cheers
Ben

PS not sure if this is the right section...?

benspray

Probably should add it has the head stud conversion as well and I have a walbro 255 (well I was told it was a 255 but not sure how to check) to go in once I get that far...

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

What are your aims and what are you going to be using the car for?
Bearing in mind its a 2.0L so the bigger turbo options will be fairly laggy. If track only then you dont have to worry too much about this. If you want a nice driveable car then I wouldn't go bigger than an MD321T or similar.
Ideally need a bit more info

Daz

benspray

Well for now at least it will be used as a road car, did consider looking into the options of going for a different throw crank to up the capacity a bit as I'll be buiying a set of pistons anyway dont want to have to bore it above standard though as Im not sure how well the bronze rings etc would then work (as they are machined for the compression washers / crush rings) so not sure if a different crank is an option / wise choice?
The type R box is fairly short geared so hopefully if there is a bit of a lack of bottom end it wont seem as bad, not sure how long it will last though?!

WMS

iTrader: (2)

Whats the compression ratio? If it is WRC spec it will never run on anything but 103 octane as WRC engines are very hi comp ratio (to work with 34mm restrictor). I would suggest the best option for a dual purpose car/engine is not this spec myself.

benspray

Not sure on compression ratio, guess it is fairly high due to the lack of head gaskets. I guess if it came to it theres nothing stopping me running my v3 sti heads and head gaskets (as Im not sure the other heads would run with head gaskets due to all of the work that has been done to fit O rings.

Out of interest though what does a 20% mix of E85 with regular unleaded come out to? I fill all of my other cars at Morrisons in Norwich which does E85, just not the scoob as that goes to Shell at the moment

Pavlo

If it burned a piston you can get a new set of pistons with a dish to give a more suitable compression ratio. You could consider 100% E85 with a high compression engine, which will give excellent driveability at the expense of slightly poor cold start and cold idle, and a bit of a thirst.

benspray

Ive read that E85 may be corrosive to alloy/rubber etc so would it be suitable to run 100% on this car/engine?

benspray

it actually has/had dished pistons in there but Im not sure how big the dish is, think they may have been wiseco from what I was told.
I'll try and get some pictures at the weekend.

But for now assuming the compression isnt going to cause me issues what else do I have to worry about ;-) ?

Shaun

If you are having Richard Bulmer fit the Hydra and map, it would be worth throwing some questions at him about what to do. He is no mug when it comes to engine building and would be able to give you some decent unbiased advice. I am sure he would not mind discussing a few things with you, since he will be ultimately mapping it.

WMS

iTrader: (2)

Please don't ignore the issue about comp ratio, if it has copper ring gaskets, thats usually needed for high compressions/boost. Comp ratio is very very important and will be key to the engine, your mapper will tell you the same. If it was built by RCM, have you spoken to them for info on the build spec?

benspray

Yeah cheers guys, I will talk to Ollie and Richard when I get a mo, pretty sure RCM can supply pistons to suit comp ratios from around 8.5 upwards so shouldnt be an issue as long as I get the right ones...

What is it likely to drive like with the high lift cams etc in if I deceide to use them? guessing they may be designed for the compression that it was running as well...

Fat Boy

Matt and Ollie tend to have a pretty much photographic memory about all their engines so if you know who they built it for originally just call them as they can and will answer all these questions for you. FWIW I have their high lift valve kit on a 2.0 high compression forged engine that they built and it's very driveable

WMS

iTrader: (2)

As WRC run restrictors that won't allow the engine rev much past 6,500 the cams are high lift and low overlap, which gives better torque, so won't be that wild in terms of drivability. If you are changing the pistons, go for around 8.4 CR, which will be ideal. What turbo are you going to run?

Shaun

Ideal for "what" exactly.... you could go much higher than that!

benspray

Turbo choice wise the 321 series look quite good but not going to decide that until I've asked around rcm and tracktive and see what you guys on here think, I'd like something that spools similar to the ihi that comes on the type r's really but slightly higher to get a bit more power could be ok.
Quite fancy the idea of a bit more torque so if that's what the cams will give me then I'll see how they go. Can always stick my sti cams in if I dont like it.
So comp ratios Shaun? What are your thoughts of either v power or e85 mix running what comp ratio and what boost level as a rough idea? I'd really like 450-500 out of this engine if possible to get that and retain drivability? (I know I'll need drivetrain, tyres, brakes etc etc but let's worry about the engine for now
Oh I had looked at water injection which I understand could help but not sure I'd trust it?
cheers
Ben

Shaun

I'm no engine builder, but I know how much better my response is on my 2.5ltr since Tracktive took it to over 9:1 cr. I still run VPower only, but achieve sharper response and more power for less boost & ignition than before when I was on OE compression. I am on the understanding that if I decided to ever run E85, meth or race fuel, I would see even bigger increases with the higher compression. I am unable to testify that, but the theory is logical. I get over 500bhp out of an OE 2.5ltr bottom end casing (cossie internals), so I am sure you could attain that with a proper built 2ltr block, reliably.

It was something I was willing to try with Tracktive when my headgaskets popped not long back, and we are both very pleased with the results. It was not known if the higher cr would affect the ability to run similar levels of boost on VPower, and possibly lose me some power on that octane of fuel.... but it has not. Totally the reverse.... 485bhp at the fly at 1.45bar (peak power) of boost. Great power for a GT30 standard fit (AET Hybrid) turbo on VPower. Full boost of 1.8bar (peak power) is well over 500.

Driveability on mine is quite savage down low, for the relatively small or large (depending on how you look at it) turbo.

BUT.... you are better off discussing your goals with either RCM / Tracktive. Both companies you can trust imo. One of them has built your engine previously and the other will be mapping it! For information, Tracktive have both built and mapped mine.

benspray

Ahh I remember reading your build thread on here now actually (think it was yours anyway) I think something like "has your car ever used any water" and then the head gasket let go...
Impressive results anyway mate

Im hoping to get some time tomorrow or this week at least to get hold of rcm and tracktive, Id be perfectly happy with a v power map and an e85 map (e85 as I mentioned is easy to get around here but I travel a bit in the car so would need a map for lower octane)
I guess my main advantage is at the moment that I have to replace the pistons anyway so have the choice of what to do to get whatever comp ratio rcm/tracktive recommend.
Sounds like I may need to go 6 speed or PPG with that kind of power anyway....! dont think the 60k miles v3 type r box will cope

Cheers
Ben

Shaun

Ben,
Yep... that sounds like mine! I have better headbolts and gaskets now, plus I am staying off these flaming dyno's and will resist running 2.5bar of boost! Should last a lot longer this time. lol

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Its an old wives tale.

Fine to run on 100% E85.

Norwich and surrounding areas is blessed with this high octane fuel - seems a shame that not many use it.

benspray

Cool, Im going to try a mix e85/unleaded on my next fillup I think (on current standard v3 sti engine), may save buying Vpower at 111.9p a litre if Im lucky...

But certainly considering mapping for vpower and 100% E85 on the new ECU/Engine when I get that far.

Spoken to RCM, they are doing some figures for me on the pistons to work out what I need so should hear more soon, they have some new pistons which should be ideal though apparently - also spoke to Tracktive and they have said talk to RCM about the comp ratio etc and they'll map it to suit, makes it a bit easier anyway I guess....

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I wouldnt do more than 10% e85 if not mapped for it

benspray

Yeah I was thinking one 5 litre can to the tank would probably do it...

benspray

Well... went to morrisons last night, probably had 5 or so litres of Vpower in the tank still so stuck 5 litres of E85 in there and then topped up with their regular unleaded.
Drove the 15 odd miles home off boost mostly and all seemed ok.

Got home disconnected the battery while I fitted the standard recirc dump valve that had turned up in the post from ebay (to replace the VTA one that the last owner had fitted) took a little while as the return pipe had been covered using a mixture of a metal type sticky tape and a sheet of rubber all jubilee clipped over the pipe but anyway, connected the battery back up and went for a drive, once up to temp the loud pedal off a roundabout in 2nd and into 3rd would spin all 4 tyres which I dont remember happening before, drove it hard for a couple of miles and then it started to cut fuel/boost (like hitting a wall at about 4-4500rpm) did that a few times and then stopped doing it but at the same time lost all of that power that it had, guesing this is how the ECU learns the knock threshold or something... anyway this morning power was back up a bit but not like when the battery first went back on.

Oddly though also to start with the recirc valve was as loud as the VTA one but more of a tssh tssh tssh noise if that makes sense ie rather than just one whoosh. Then once the power dropped off a bit it became very quiet (perhaps it was overboosting or something to start with and hence cutting at 4500??) and is actually great now, seems to have more reponse than Ive seen in the past although I think this could be a mental thing in that I never used to like pushing it or even taking it above 4000 rpm anywhere where there was traffic before and getting that loud whoosh of the VTA.

So anyway pretty happy with how its running on the mix and v glad Ive gone to a standard recirc valve

Cheers
Ben

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

What does the boost gauge show?

Are you sure all the pipes are on right?

benspray

dont have a boost guage unfortunatly its on my to do list though...

I do have an Apexi AVC-R sitting here that Im wondering about fitting though... but I also have the Hydra nemisis that Im told can control boost so didnt really want to fit the apexi and then have to remove it all again later (unless it is a plug in job - ie dont want to be cutting wires and having to rejoin them later) its going to be a few months before the engne and hydra go in there though so could be worth it for now?

benspray

Was looking to get oil pressure/temperature and boost gauges fitted but havent found a set that I like enough or a place to fit them that Im happy with (I like the dash mounts you can get for v4 onwards but only option for v1-3 seems to be pillar pods or possibly a DIN mount (would have to change the double din stereo as well then)

Cheers

benspray

regarding the pipes yes all of the pipes that I put on are good and tight (I have to stop myself from overtightening jubilee clips etc as I often break them), doesnt mean the rest are though will have to check

benspray

Either way I think it likes the fuel mix so I will be using that from now on... I coulnt hear or feel any issues at all (had the window down in case to start with) even when it started to cut fuel/boost so you are probably right with the pipe thing

One thing I do know there is an issue with at the moment is the idle control valve, when I bought the car it was overfilled with oil (like about 2 litres too much!!!) didnt check the oil when I looked at the car but did as soon as I got home and found it was high so I dumped it all and changed it but I think by then it had been blowing some oil through and gunked up the valve and from the amount that was in the dump valve that I removed last night and the pipework around there I think the intercooler needs removing and flushing!! so perhaps that was sticking open and allowing more air through or something, or the intercooler isnt working well because of the oil in there, no idea...

Cheers

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Get a boost gauge on it before you blow it.