FOZ STiV5

Hi all…

Just running a quick thread asking for comments on LINK, MOTEC and GEMS ECU’s.

The good, the bad and the darn right Ugly would be appreciated!!


Julian

SecretAgentMan

Link - cheap(-ish), able enough for most needs.

Boost control is an outright pain in the ar$e on it...it's a lost battle - prepare for a compromise....and it's got a few niggles with the idle control.

Another issue *might* be it's alledged slow CPU and ignition...I've heard a few evil rumours abt it having a problem with snappy boost response and being able to back off ignition swiftly enough - I don't know though, never had a problem with it.

All in all with the above taken into consideration I'm a *very* happy Link owner/fiddler.

Can we get the pro's/con's of the other systems please?

/J

submannz

Link has the best features for money, and easier to find maps for the Subarus.

Motec has more adjustment, but trying to get a base map just to run the car is a bit harder.

It comes down to what you want to do, reasonable power etc Link is more than enough, if you want serious power then Motec or Similar.

Dan

FOZ STiV5

Anyone used GEMS yet... I heard it was the business ... and don't think the LINK is a bargain

The LINK isn’t that cheap…. Sure the LINK ecu is Ł695 but fitting is Ł350 and a 3 point solenoid Ł180 hence total Ł1225 … GEMS is Ł1500 all in …as you can see comparable?????

Waiting on more comments

Julian

FOZ STiV5

Sorry all and BR Dev..... the 3 port solenoid is Ł140

J

Wallace_Performance

www.wolfems.com.au

Seems to be the leading edge of technology. Hand held control unit which can be used to map whilst in situ. ie on the road. Comes with all sensors, fitting and mapping instructions. Complete with computer software and lifetime warranty. Retail price is Ł1056.

Has anyone used this system?

Gavin
www.wallaceperformance.co.uk

submannz

Well I am from New Zealand where the possum link comes from and it is a load cheaper than other fully programmable computers. And the new PC link gives you the ability to tune everything via laptop.

Dan

SecretAgentMan

Yes, the link is cheap (relatively) when comparing to the other alternatives (bar the Unichip, which with an EBC comes in around the same figures).

/J

GavinP

The most important factor in the end result is the person mapping it...

It's a bit like managing a football team and having David Beckham on your side - if he plays well enough do you care what type of boots he wears ?

Choose the mapper first and then listen to their opinions.

Thanks

Gavin

elgordano

Have you looked at the Unichip ECU ?
I have been looking at these for my MY01
G.

FOZ STiV5

I have steered clear because they don't seem high on the recommended list...??

Blackscooby

Hows about DTA ?

www.dtafast.co.uk

I'm having a DTA system fitted to my Pug 205 GTi Sprint car. I've ordered it and it currently stands me around Ł1100 for the parts which includes the wiring loom.

Fully mappable 3D ECU, which has logging capability (albit limited). Can connect laptop for diagnostics etc.

Sounds alright.

I'll report on how its going once the engine is fitted, the ECU is mapped up etc.

Hopefully around 190BHP at the flywheel around 8000RPM if all goes to plan ~ but we'll see eh !
Might be a case of engine builders and over inflated estimates

Cheers

mark

FOZ STiV5

Not heard of it before ...so let me know how yours goes.... to be honest I need bucket loads of confidence it whichever I choose. The STiV running a lot of ignition advance and I need the ECU to keep a lid on this aswell as not compromising performance.

Julian

T16GER

Julian,

I heard that CraigH used to run a GEMS system, so I'm looking into that a bit more now, so I'll let you know if I find out anymore.

FOZ STiV5

Cheers T,

I got a little more info today on the GEMS ... it has dual MAPS so perhaps one for 95RON and one for 98. You could ditch the 95 and have one set for the track i.e. Optimax + Octane booster.

I am still weighing up LINK or GEMS. The Motec seems just like the GEMS but more expensive... but the latter can be taken with you for another car whereas the GEMS I belive to be only Scooby..

Julian..... Still what else is there

WREXY

Has anyone heard of the Power FC with an optional hand controller? If so do you know anything about them? Or anyone used one?

Cheers,

Wrexy.

piravlos

WREXY,

We use them very much back home in Cyprus.
Good for mild mods.
However, it is not as good as the F-CON
And I don't think anyone in Greece or Cyprus has enough expertise to map a POWER-FC. I am going for an F-CON when JUN come in Cyprus.
It's more expensive, but with 64-bit processor it deserves its money.

CraigH

Ran a GEMs ecu for a while - replaced Apexi piggy back units with it.

The boost control was far better with the GEMs - almost seamless delivery comapred to the APexi where the boost/rev increments were sometimes very noticeable.

Fuel economy was a plus point on the GEMs too - got over 300miles on a tank after 1 run - not bad considering the engine spec

Removal of the MAF sensor is another plus point - lose a few of these and you're half way towards the GEMs cost.

I don't think the GEMs has as many rows as an M48Pro - I think it has 17 - I think.

Antilag, launch control, switcheable maps, proper knock control, water injection control etc etc.

Can't personally compare it to a Link or Motec ECU.

In the end, you have to decide if you think it's worth the extra over a link, or the Motec is worth the extra over the GEMs.

Trouser

We have run both systems although not quite the same as these were for the Group N car and probably more sophisticated than a road car needs. Also we required adjustemnt on an hour-by hour basis which isn't relevant for road cars.

When we acquired the car as the Ex McRae recce car it was fitted with GEMS. It is a good system as Craig says. He also rightly spots that there is a little more to go at with a MoTeC, paramter wise. hence the reason we promptly swapped to that system.

To be fair, the systems aren't the same price. So i guess in reality you are getting good VFM in both cases.

The parameters that MoTeC allows you to map are mind blowing and way beyond my little pea brain.. but dad is the expert here. He is developing the new M800 Pro with MoteC at the mo. we have got this fitted to Simon Burton's P1, but are only about half way through development. early signs are promising and the amazing array of in built safeties are very reassuraing as a retailer.

Please call and ask for Graham.( me Dad) as you can tell i don't really have a clue!

hope this helps

cheers

paul
TSL

simonburton

As Trouser has said, I am having the MoTec M800 Pro developed on my P1 at the moment - the main parameter for me was extra torque and bhp with reliability and saftey. The mapping invloved is very comprehensive, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, who does the mapping is very important.

As Trouser says, early signs are encouraging with plenty more to come

I have no experience of other systems, only from the information given to me when considering prospectice ECU's

simon

Sparks

Edit my original post as I wanted to give you some more info..

Going to throw anyother name in the hat. autronic. Hails from the other side of the world like some of the other systems mentioned here.

They have two generic ecus, one has traction control, the other doesn't.. Basic features include anti lag, 8 injector drivers if required. The load sites can by defined by the mapper, upto 32 engine speeds and 16 throttle positions are available. It also has auto-compensation formulas for different injectors.

The best bit is that they do specific ecus for imprezas and evos. The impreza ecu has facilities to map the idle control stepper motor. This will hopefully go a long way to solving the idle problems with many ecus.

I havent seen one fitted to an impreza but have seen one of the generic ecus on a hybrid vauxhall engine. Gave good results and even I could understand the mapping software! Not quite the same as being able to map it though!!

Its cheaper than motec, more expensive than link, dont know how much gems is so cant compare.

More info is available from a company called Angry Turbo. Their email is info@angryturbo.co.uk

Usual Disclaimer, no connection or interest etc, just thought the idle control thing might interest people.

FOZ STiV5

Cheers Sparks,

The gems too ...controls the idle stepper....

I wrote that following on another thread ..and I know I have only captured a couple of features on each. This is my summary as I understand the systems. If you like the sound of any best speak to the dealers/mappers for more info.

Unichip - Good point mapping still uses dreaded MAF - Ł600 inc

Link - Good Ł1200 approx fitted and mapped with necessary 3 port boost solenoid for my motor, does away with MAF similar sensor grabbing to items below. Slightly less resolution with map points. Great value. BR are best to talk to for more accurate details.

GEMS - Good, v.good map points, nice options, more tricky to map due to lower level language but fast data processing. No need for MAF uses air inlet temp monitoring and MAP. 2 selectable boost maps ... and a couple of other goodies (Launch & centre diff control) mentioned earlier.

MOTEC - Good, again excellent map points easier to map due to higher level language and great software. A bit pricey.

So you have to draw your own conclusions.

My personal choice is edging towards the GEMS..... It is very similar to the MOTEC but the mapping is more tricky as I said. The manufacturer offers a lifetime repair warranty too, provided it was installed properly and has not been abused.

For those in the midlands or north west ... there is very good support for mapping and installing the GEMS device. I won't post the who and where to avoid any arguments but if you want more details please email me.

Julian

Cosie Convert

I used to think that MAF based fuel/ignition control would be superior to MAP/Temp based for the reasons mentioned by JB above.

Maybe Subaru just didn't do a very good job of it on the WRX but my old Sierra Cosworth, with MAP/Temp base produced more BHP more Torque and better cruise economy than my WRX ! and all from a heavier car with no closed loop fuel mixture control.

Both Cos/WRX had similar breathing mods and 380cc injectors.
WRX 300bhp 300ft/lb 15 - 26 mpg
Cos 330bhp 340ft/lb 15 - 34 mpg

Give me MAP control anyday !!!

Bob Rawle

All, on those cars that have them fitted Link uses the in built air temp sensor to compensate for ambient air changes, as to charge temp ... the mapper has to do that!! If you need to rely on retardation then not right. On those cars that don't (read Uk type mostly) then it defaults to ... 20 deg C. Link uses the density/rpm principle, funnily enough so does Motec and Gems (if not using maf) Motec can't control idle ... although I've just got my M800 to work with some "adjustments" (software needs some work) but the M48Pro cannot control stepper or isc, not enough outputs. I have a fix for the M48Pro in cars using the linear motor isc though. Link/Gems et al all control using the stepper, Link version 5 as of last Friday has better startup and idle control than factory ... suprising what minor software adjustment can do.

Now on Motec ... you program an input to use the same temp sensor ... default is ... 20 deg C (or what you will), charge temp .. extra input can be used but again if the map is right ... M800 will also accept EGT, Fuel Temp AT AL, the list is pretty endless but then so is the price. Very good though.

Comparing apples with apples Link cost is Ł1040 fitted and mapped btw. Modules and three ports are good to have but not essential for Link just the enhanced well being of the car as a whole. If you want more bells and whistles then there is always LinkPlus but that uses an adaptor loom like Motec and is more expensive than normal Link although cheaper than M48ro

Map resolution, Gems/Link/Unichip all about the same, Motec is user programmable, 50 rpm ????? even Motec themselves only use 500 rpm steps. ECU will spend more time calcing interface changes than running the car if too granular.

Pays your money etc ... I have both Link V5 and Motec M800 in the car right now and switch between each depending on what development I'm doing. Was easy to get the M800 going, just converted the M48Pro map, set up the channel configurations, one or two differences but principles the same and software has same look and feel with same map screens. Link PC software is windows based and v good, Motec is still in a DOS shell. Motec Interpreter is Windows, Link PC software, like Interpreter, can play back data logs real time etc etc and you can view digital or analogue engine parameter displays real time.

All good stuff.

BTW don't forget Pectel (ok Mark, Pat, must not leave out)which is a Motec 800 level beast but needs special addons as it can't use some of the factory sensors (least it couldn't) but is a high performer with a price to match.

IWatkins

Trouser said:
He is developing the new M800 Pro with MoteC at the mo. we have got this fitted to Simon Burton's P1, but are only about half way through development

If you need help, have a word with Rich at Powerstation. He did a P1 on the 800 a few months back and got some good results doing a "few things differently".

Cheers

Ian

SecretAgentMan

That is very interesting Bob, the better startup and idle control of the new software for the link.

I've been having a small niggle with hot start in mine, the set value on the stepper doesn't seem to be enough in the starting moment....so I'll have to bump the throttle a few times, relying on the Link to up the stepper value will stall the car (it ought to be have a bit higher sensitivity value almost) 9 times out of 10.

This problem seems to related to how hot the engine is...which IMHO is a bit weird (at first I thought it to be related to cold start enrichment)....the engine could have a water temp around 60-ish (no enrichment), and start up quite nicely...but when fully warmed up I need to bump the throttle....the ISC value is the same in both examples.

Could it be that the engine runs more "freely" when fully warmed up...and this somehow gets it over the edge?

The next issue is the ackumulative ISC value....if ignition is turned on/off a few times... Or the car is stalled when cold....OR if you don't let it go back to normal idle before shutting it off.

(blimey I was going to write a short Q abt the new versions enhancement).

In short - are these nigglets gone in the new version of the software?

Cheers!

/J

dowser

I would wait a little while - this will soon become a valid contender too;

http://www.ecutek.com

Remap your OE ecu Has the advantage of not requiring a full map, just modifying the parameters required for performance tuning. Only supports my99/00 STi variants at the moment, but I guess more will follow.

The web site's only just been updated, but I suggest these products will prove very popular

Richard

FOZ STiV5

Thanks all

My MAF will be gone Monday!!! (anyone got a knackered one I could have ?? only want the mesh and tube)... anyway the Blitz will be back on. I have, after MUCH consideration decided to go with the GEMS. There are many considerations that I have taken into account some of which being -

Locality of support and mapping
Future changes I wish to consider for my motor… i.e. FMIC
Comments from rallying privateers
Features - There are a lot
Price & VFM

I have even spoken at some length to GEMS UK and their technical staff.

I have confidence in the unit .... this is not to say I don't have confidence in others. To be honest I offer only the highest praise to many experts that have provided advice to me over the last week or so. I know they would not want to be named in person but I must say thanks to BRD, PowerStation, Scoobymania, GEMS UK, PE, G GR. They have patiently chatted to me and although some would argue they are promoting their product in almost all cases they tried hard to give an objective and unbiased view.

My head at this moment is bulging and so is my notebook. So if anyone considering and ECU wants an unbiased enthusiasts view feel free to mail me...I have extensive notes.

Cheers all,

Julian

Bob Rawle

Jerry, answer is as stated, no idle problems. I am upgrading all our customers who have the Q chip FOC as I considered the anomoly you mention unacceptable, Link have now done what I requested from the outset (and more)yet again. Very well done at that.

Bob

SecretAgentMan

Cheers Bob!

That is good news indeed...now I'll just have to verify that the chip I ordered 2 weeks ago will be the of the latest version.



/J