Dawes Device
21 February 2008, 02:27 PM
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Dawes Device
I've got a MY00 turbo which I've had for about 4 months & I'm thinking of fitting a Dawes device. I've been quoted £150ish to have it fitted at a local garage (rolling road run included). I've been looking around and it seems the part itself isn't that pricey (£20?), so I was thinking of getting a mate to fit it (he's done it before) along with a boost gauge. Is this wise? I know that cranking it up too much isn't recommended (for obvious reasons) but what is safe?
Also, on another topic, is there much point in fitting a decat centre section (It's got a P1 backbox but the rest is standard)?
Any help would be much appreciated, cheers!
Also, on another topic, is there much point in fitting a decat centre section (It's got a P1 backbox but the rest is standard)?
Any help would be much appreciated, cheers!
21 February 2008, 06:03 PM
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I recently fitted a dawes boost controller and took it off after a couple of weeks. It didnt hold the boost very well and kept creeping up so the fuel would cut.£250 sounds dear considering it takes about 10 minutes to fit one.giv it a go but defo fit a boost gauge so u dont overboost.
21 February 2008, 08:41 PM
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It's all very well it being easy to fit, but with the aid of the rolling road they should be able to check fuelling as they slowly increase the boost......
21 February 2008, 08:45 PM
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I'd say if boost was creeping up to fuel cut, either the device is not set correctly or it is not fitted correctly.
You will struggle to find people here to tell you what is safe when setting a Dawes. No one wants to put their neck on the line OR nobody really knows!! (Anyone care to reply?)
All I can say is this. On my 93 WRX I fitted an old type ESL chip plus a Dawes set at 20 psi, obviously I had to fit a Fuel Cut Defender too, to fool the ECU. Who knows how long it would have lasted if I took it to a track and caned it all day? But on the road, sometimes driven hard, it was good, more than good actually; it never missed a beat.
Learn what the Dawes does and how it does it. Experiment. Take it step by step. Be clever with it. Each time set and use the Dawes with caution. And if at any point you feel unsure about the outcome, turn the boost down, get a rolling road 1hr, or just remove it.
You will struggle to find people here to tell you what is safe when setting a Dawes. No one wants to put their neck on the line OR nobody really knows!! (Anyone care to reply?)
All I can say is this. On my 93 WRX I fitted an old type ESL chip plus a Dawes set at 20 psi, obviously I had to fit a Fuel Cut Defender too, to fool the ECU. Who knows how long it would have lasted if I took it to a track and caned it all day? But on the road, sometimes driven hard, it was good, more than good actually; it never missed a beat.
Learn what the Dawes does and how it does it. Experiment. Take it step by step. Be clever with it. Each time set and use the Dawes with caution. And if at any point you feel unsure about the outcome, turn the boost down, get a rolling road 1hr, or just remove it.
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21 February 2008, 08:58 PM
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21 February 2008, 09:18 PM
#9
I got Dawes fitted but i fitted it in parallel with the boost solenoid, this way it prevents any spiking, it brings the boost on sooner as it prevents any wastegate creep, but i think most importantly for my peace of mind, it leaves the ecu to control the fueling etc. And a bonus, no need for a £150 session on the rr
21 February 2008, 10:18 PM
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I got Dawes fitted but i fitted it in parallel with the boost solenoid, this way it prevents any spiking, it brings the boost on sooner as it prevents any wastegate creep, but i think most importantly for my peace of mind, it leaves the ecu to control the fueling etc. And a bonus, no need for a £150 session on the rr
21 February 2008, 10:29 PM
#12
Have the boost lifted with a remap, imho the only safe way to do it then just fit DD between boost solenoid and wastegate actuator.
dan83590
As i said, i only did this for my peace of mind, mine is mapped to run 1.1 bar so 1.1 bar it runs at, the DD just prevents any spikes and leaves the BCS and ECU to control the fueling, imho the safest way to run
21 February 2008, 10:49 PM
#15
Just interested mines a 3 port solenoid as well, never heard of plumbing into the the 3 port as well.
I only knew of this way :
So if I understand correct, I could patch into the top hose at the 3 port and leave the middle & bottom hose as standard.
Well I guess you learn something new everyday.
I only knew of this way :
So if I understand correct, I could patch into the top hose at the 3 port and leave the middle & bottom hose as standard.
Well I guess you learn something new everyday.
21 February 2008, 11:04 PM
#16
Yeah, the way shown in your 1st pic totally bypasses the BCS which a) leaves you open to overboost, b) the BCS is controlled by the ECU and the ECU is fed back from the BCS (i think). So what i couldnt get my head around was how did the ECU know how much boost was being used? If the ECU didnt know how much boost is on how can it adjust the fueling to match the boost???
You will not be able to increase boost past the safe mapped level, but its a safe level for a reason!!
Learn something new every day?? Ya do when your a Scooby virgin, and fast too
You will not be able to increase boost past the safe mapped level, but its a safe level for a reason!!
Learn something new every day?? Ya do when your a Scooby virgin, and fast too
22 February 2008, 10:34 AM
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Hmm, what about an electronic boost controller? More expensive but is it worth spending the extra cash for all the feedback/safety features that they provide over a manual controller?
22 February 2008, 12:13 PM
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b13at.
The ECU get MAP from an outtake on the manifold, not from the boost solenoid, so there is no difference there. The ECU knows the boost and adapt the fueling and timing accordingly.
Your only gain is if you have your dawe's set to somewhere 0.6-1.0 bar then the boost will raise to that level faster than if you did not have it. But on the other hand the ECU/solenoid can not go to 'limp home' mode like if the lmm breaks down, since the dawe's lets boost run up to it's set level before it opens. There is no guarantee that you don't get boost creep since it's your solenoid that controls boost above where the dawe's is set.
Basically, you have taken away the ecu's chance to run a safe 'limp home' boost (actuator controlled) and are still susceptible to boost creep....
Also be aware that a dawe's give higher boost when it's cold so a sudden freezing day could start with your most powerful engine-day and then hit you with a bad case of fuel cut....
Geordieboy, electronic controllers are usually much easier to control but rarely gives as fast boost as dawe's. For a fast power hike and fun caracter: Dawe's, for high outputs: reprogrammed ECU or electronic controller (can be programmed to be slower on boost and so are nicer to the gearbox (read: keep your 5 speed 'boxs 3rd gear cog for a while longer ;-) )
The ECU get MAP from an outtake on the manifold, not from the boost solenoid, so there is no difference there. The ECU knows the boost and adapt the fueling and timing accordingly.
Your only gain is if you have your dawe's set to somewhere 0.6-1.0 bar then the boost will raise to that level faster than if you did not have it. But on the other hand the ECU/solenoid can not go to 'limp home' mode like if the lmm breaks down, since the dawe's lets boost run up to it's set level before it opens. There is no guarantee that you don't get boost creep since it's your solenoid that controls boost above where the dawe's is set.
Basically, you have taken away the ecu's chance to run a safe 'limp home' boost (actuator controlled) and are still susceptible to boost creep....
Also be aware that a dawe's give higher boost when it's cold so a sudden freezing day could start with your most powerful engine-day and then hit you with a bad case of fuel cut....
Geordieboy, electronic controllers are usually much easier to control but rarely gives as fast boost as dawe's. For a fast power hike and fun caracter: Dawe's, for high outputs: reprogrammed ECU or electronic controller (can be programmed to be slower on boost and so are nicer to the gearbox (read: keep your 5 speed 'boxs 3rd gear cog for a while longer ;-) )
22 February 2008, 05:53 PM
#20
b13at.
The ECU get MAP from an outtake on the manifold, not from the boost solenoid, so there is no difference there. The ECU knows the boost and adapt the fueling and timing accordingly.
Your only gain is if you have your dawe's set to somewhere 0.6-1.0 bar then the boost will raise to that level faster than if you did not have it. But on the other hand the ECU/solenoid can not go to 'limp home' mode like if the lmm breaks down, since the dawe's lets boost run up to it's set level before it opens. There is no guarantee that you don't get boost creep since it's your solenoid that controls boost above where the dawe's is set.
Basically, you have taken away the ecu's chance to run a safe 'limp home' boost (actuator controlled) and are still susceptible to boost creep....
Also be aware that a dawe's give higher boost when it's cold so a sudden freezing day could start with your most powerful engine-day and then hit you with a bad case of fuel cut....
Geordieboy, electronic controllers are usually much easier to control but rarely gives as fast boost as dawe's. For a fast power hike and fun caracter: Dawe's, for high outputs: reprogrammed ECU or electronic controller (can be programmed to be slower on boost and so are nicer to the gearbox (read: keep your 5 speed 'boxs 3rd gear cog for a while longer ;-) )
The ECU get MAP from an outtake on the manifold, not from the boost solenoid, so there is no difference there. The ECU knows the boost and adapt the fueling and timing accordingly.
Your only gain is if you have your dawe's set to somewhere 0.6-1.0 bar then the boost will raise to that level faster than if you did not have it. But on the other hand the ECU/solenoid can not go to 'limp home' mode like if the lmm breaks down, since the dawe's lets boost run up to it's set level before it opens. There is no guarantee that you don't get boost creep since it's your solenoid that controls boost above where the dawe's is set.
Basically, you have taken away the ecu's chance to run a safe 'limp home' boost (actuator controlled) and are still susceptible to boost creep....
Also be aware that a dawe's give higher boost when it's cold so a sudden freezing day could start with your most powerful engine-day and then hit you with a bad case of fuel cut....
Geordieboy, electronic controllers are usually much easier to control but rarely gives as fast boost as dawe's. For a fast power hike and fun caracter: Dawe's, for high outputs: reprogrammed ECU or electronic controller (can be programmed to be slower on boost and so are nicer to the gearbox (read: keep your 5 speed 'boxs 3rd gear cog for a while longer ;-) )
So how does the ECU go to 'limp mode' if you are bypassing the BCS and only using a Dawes, surely the same applies as the in this case the Dawes sits directly between the turbo outlet and the actuator
As for boost creep i have not yet experienced any
22 February 2008, 06:55 PM
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b13,
With a Dawe's connected between boost side and actuator there is no 'limp home' mode, totaly correct.
OE solenoid operates by venting out air to inlet until ECU decides it need to stop boost building and closes that valve sending all air to actuator. The hose to actuator is open all the time, this is why a dawe's is faster, it just doesn't allow any pressurised air to actuator until the spring in the dawe's is compressed enough to let air pass. But with OE solenoid some air passes the way to actuator even when escape valve (to inlet) is open, thereby letting the wastegate open up a little bit even when building boost.
If you have only dawe's, when it has opened up there is 'limitless' air going to actuator making sure it opens enough not to let boost creep, OE solenoid is either not as good at letting air to actuator or ECU is not programmed to open it enough to handle situations where boost comes to fast or hard (newage STis w/ aftermarket exhausts frequently have this).
Having said all that, I have used a dawe's worked great but had to be readjusted in cold weather and when I fitted a 3"/sports-cat exhaust, and now have an Apexi AVC-R, which also let some air pass to actuator even when building boost and also doesn't allow 'limp home' (which is just a OE solenoid keeping 'escape'air valve closed forcing all air to actuator =0.5 bar max, ECU gives the engine fuel according to lmm, so even if it wants 'limp home' mode it gives you full effect if you have something to let boost build))
By fitting a dawe's between OE solenoid and setting it to 1.1 bar you make sure boost comes quick, but IMO you could just discard OE solenoid, it's not allowed to reduce boost since the dawe's stops all air to actuator lower than min. 1.1 bar, and it doesn't prevent overboost better than the dawe's since if anything it just reduces air to actuator, and if the dawe's doesn't open until say 1.2 or 1.3 due to cold weather (don't ask me why this is so, pressure is pressure, but it works this way which I have seen clearly on cold cold winter days) then the actuator doesn't see any air until that 1.2 or 1.3 no matter what the solenoid is trying to do. So no limp home due to dawe's and no boost creep protection (more than the dawe's which is usually good enough!) by adding the solenoid.
Stop me I'm writing a novel here! And please correct me if I am wrong!!
With a Dawe's connected between boost side and actuator there is no 'limp home' mode, totaly correct.
OE solenoid operates by venting out air to inlet until ECU decides it need to stop boost building and closes that valve sending all air to actuator. The hose to actuator is open all the time, this is why a dawe's is faster, it just doesn't allow any pressurised air to actuator until the spring in the dawe's is compressed enough to let air pass. But with OE solenoid some air passes the way to actuator even when escape valve (to inlet) is open, thereby letting the wastegate open up a little bit even when building boost.
If you have only dawe's, when it has opened up there is 'limitless' air going to actuator making sure it opens enough not to let boost creep, OE solenoid is either not as good at letting air to actuator or ECU is not programmed to open it enough to handle situations where boost comes to fast or hard (newage STis w/ aftermarket exhausts frequently have this).
Having said all that, I have used a dawe's worked great but had to be readjusted in cold weather and when I fitted a 3"/sports-cat exhaust, and now have an Apexi AVC-R, which also let some air pass to actuator even when building boost and also doesn't allow 'limp home' (which is just a OE solenoid keeping 'escape'air valve closed forcing all air to actuator =0.5 bar max, ECU gives the engine fuel according to lmm, so even if it wants 'limp home' mode it gives you full effect if you have something to let boost build))
By fitting a dawe's between OE solenoid and setting it to 1.1 bar you make sure boost comes quick, but IMO you could just discard OE solenoid, it's not allowed to reduce boost since the dawe's stops all air to actuator lower than min. 1.1 bar, and it doesn't prevent overboost better than the dawe's since if anything it just reduces air to actuator, and if the dawe's doesn't open until say 1.2 or 1.3 due to cold weather (don't ask me why this is so, pressure is pressure, but it works this way which I have seen clearly on cold cold winter days) then the actuator doesn't see any air until that 1.2 or 1.3 no matter what the solenoid is trying to do. So no limp home due to dawe's and no boost creep protection (more than the dawe's which is usually good enough!) by adding the solenoid.
Stop me I'm writing a novel here! And please correct me if I am wrong!!
Last edited by Adam K; 22 February 2008 at 06:58 PM. Reason: disclaimer
22 February 2008, 07:57 PM
#22
Wow, thanks for that Adam.
Makes perfect sense now, i think.
So which ever way you fit the Dawes it make the BCS reduntant, yes?
And from what you say, its better to bypass the BCS totally and rely soley on the Dawes as it is more reliable than the OE item at controling the flow to the actuator, yes?
Many thanks for you patience and knowledge Adam.
Rgds, Steve.
Makes perfect sense now, i think.
So which ever way you fit the Dawes it make the BCS reduntant, yes?
And from what you say, its better to bypass the BCS totally and rely soley on the Dawes as it is more reliable than the OE item at controling the flow to the actuator, yes?
Many thanks for you patience and knowledge Adam.
Rgds, Steve.
23 February 2008, 08:41 AM
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Hi,
IMO, whichever way you fit the dawe's it makes the BCS redundant, yes.
I did and would bypass the BCS totally again, yes.
I am sure a Subaru mechanic, or your insurance company don't agree with me though!
The reliability is the issue!
Reliable, yes in many ways, but as before, in colder weather it allows more boost so you NEED a boost gague, and preferably with an alarm, and you need to set the dawe's a bit lower than the fuelcut, I think a lot of people run it at 1.1 bar, but (I know!) from this level it is not too hard to get a fuel cut now and again
Big disclaimer.......... IMHO........blah blah blah......... bypass the BCS!
Best of luck/Adam
IMO, whichever way you fit the dawe's it makes the BCS redundant, yes.
I did and would bypass the BCS totally again, yes.
I am sure a Subaru mechanic, or your insurance company don't agree with me though!
The reliability is the issue!
Reliable, yes in many ways, but as before, in colder weather it allows more boost so you NEED a boost gague, and preferably with an alarm, and you need to set the dawe's a bit lower than the fuelcut, I think a lot of people run it at 1.1 bar, but (I know!) from this level it is not too hard to get a fuel cut now and again
Big disclaimer.......... IMHO........blah blah blah......... bypass the BCS!
Best of luck/Adam
Wow, thanks for that Adam.
Makes perfect sense now, i think.
So which ever way you fit the Dawes it make the BCS reduntant, yes?
And from what you say, its better to bypass the BCS totally and rely soley on the Dawes as it is more reliable than the OE item at controling the flow to the actuator, yes?
Many thanks for you patience and knowledge Adam.
Rgds, Steve.
Makes perfect sense now, i think.
So which ever way you fit the Dawes it make the BCS reduntant, yes?
And from what you say, its better to bypass the BCS totally and rely soley on the Dawes as it is more reliable than the OE item at controling the flow to the actuator, yes?
Many thanks for you patience and knowledge Adam.
Rgds, Steve.
23 February 2008, 11:24 AM
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hi.. i have a dawes fitted to MY99 classic.. it was first installed in the footwell, but my boost kept dropping cos the tw@ who put it in, didnt connect pipes correctly, and as a result, boost was all over.. i removed the whole lot, pipes included, and fitted all new pipe work, and moved the dawes valve under the engine bay, and have bolted it to the bulkhead... as a result, boost comes in very quickly, and behaves as it should... i have no re-map yet, as the ECU learns that you have upped the boost, and makes adjustments to fuelling and ignition accordingley. i have a boost valve too, and on a standard turbo, she is boosting at 15psi in gears 1,2 and 3.... and in 4 and 5 she is overboosting to 17psi.. this is how the boost should be... the standard turbo will safely take around 19-20psi, but i backed off a bit for safety.. i also have an induction kit, and full stainless and decat..
all i do, is experiment by turning the dawes valve by only a couple of turns, and then going for a run.. see what she boosts at, and then set it at that... as extra precaution, i have taped mine up now, cos it had a tendancy to turn itself up due to engine vibrations!!
my fuel cut kicks in when it is really cold outside -5 or below, but under normal temp, above +1 degrees outside, she is fine!
all i do, is experiment by turning the dawes valve by only a couple of turns, and then going for a run.. see what she boosts at, and then set it at that... as extra precaution, i have taped mine up now, cos it had a tendancy to turn itself up due to engine vibrations!!
my fuel cut kicks in when it is really cold outside -5 or below, but under normal temp, above +1 degrees outside, she is fine!
Last edited by stringostar; 23 February 2008 at 11:27 AM.
23 February 2008, 02:18 PM
#25
Heres another question for you all:
Some people re-drill the hole on the dawes to open it a bit more. Whats the reason behind this.
I always thought it was 1.0 to 1.5mm re-drilled to help it stop or reduce the overboost problem
Some people re-drill the hole on the dawes to open it a bit more. Whats the reason behind this.
I always thought it was 1.0 to 1.5mm re-drilled to help it stop or reduce the overboost problem
Last edited by slipstream_uk; 23 February 2008 at 02:21 PM.
23 February 2008, 02:47 PM
#26
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hi dont sopose any ones got one of these fitted to a turbo 2000model ive got one to go on and could do whith a picture or something
Last edited by lalemmakate; 23 February 2008 at 02:49 PM. Reason: spelling
26 February 2008, 07:54 PM
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Thank f*ck for the photo in this thread because ive just realised ive fitted my dawes the wrong way round...ie: the dawes 'elbow end' was at the turbo nipple end and not the actuator end.......
Ive just turned it round so the dawes elbow end matches the pic....and the boost went off the gauge
Time to re-set it pronto!
Ive just turned it round so the dawes elbow end matches the pic....and the boost went off the gauge
Time to re-set it pronto!
Last edited by NAY93WRX; 26 February 2008 at 07:55 PM. Reason: spelling mistake
26 February 2008, 09:21 PM
#29
Thank f*ck for the photo in this thread because ive just realised ive fitted my dawes the wrong way round...ie: the dawes 'elbow end' was at the turbo nipple end and not the actuator end.......
Ive just turned it round so the dawes elbow end matches the pic....and the boost went off the gauge
Time to re-set it pronto!
Ive just turned it round so the dawes elbow end matches the pic....and the boost went off the gauge
Time to re-set it pronto!
How well was it boosting with the DD on backwards??
Its a wonder it was booting at all isn't it
I love SN, its a great place to be. Just sorted my little niggle out, runs a little rough and cuts out with CEL after being stood all week, no cover on vent over air cone, wet filter!!!!!!! Refit blank plate at weekend
28 February 2008, 08:38 PM
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That was a tad lucky eh!
How well was it boosting with the DD on backwards??
Its a wonder it was booting at all isn't it
I love SN, its a great place to be. Just sorted my little niggle out, runs a little rough and cuts out with CEL after being stood all week, no cover on vent over air cone, wet filter!!!!!!! Refit blank plate at weekend
How well was it boosting with the DD on backwards??
Its a wonder it was booting at all isn't it
I love SN, its a great place to be. Just sorted my little niggle out, runs a little rough and cuts out with CEL after being stood all week, no cover on vent over air cone, wet filter!!!!!!! Refit blank plate at weekend
it was set up for 1.2bar, now ive got the joyous task of setting the damn thing up....again