SimTek vs. ECUTEK
30 January 2008, 09:17 PM
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SimTek vs. ECUTEK
I have a MY99 JDM WRX wagon. I did one hill climb last year and would like to do one or more this year. At the moment the engine is largely standard, but to be a little more competitive I need some extra grunt, especially low down the revs in 2nd.
I'm not thinking about creating a stripped out competition-only vehicle or chasing big power numbers for the sake of it. It's primarily a weekend car which will have occasional competition use. Therefore I want
1. good driveability on-road with fuel consumption unchanged (or improved?) compared to standard.
2. must pass emissions tests
3. significantly more low end torque
At the moment it appears I have two main options, ECUTEK and SimTek. I have been reading about APEXI etc, but it appears the game has moved on and SimTech is currently flavour of the month bang-for-buck.
So the options appear to be a re-map of the existing ECU using ECUTEK, or a change of ECU via SimTek (I have been trying to find out if there is any open source alternatives, but there appears not to be for the MY99/00).
So the question is, which route is best?
ECUTEK
Pros: reflashing of existing ECU, good mapping tools from what I understand, lots of experience out there, with good mapping at least as safe as standard ECU
Cons: cost? Once unlocked am I right in thinking I still don't have the new codes/software to make modifications, I'm dependent on the mappers for each subsequent change? Compromised fuel consumption because of competition mapping?
SimTek
Pros: seems flavour of the moment, more features possible (e.g. auto IC spray), software available to datalog and remap ? Possible to have >1 map, for example one for competition and one for daily use?
Cons: cost? Reliability of non OEM ECU ?
I'd be interested to hear from the "big beasts" in the mapping world what they think, and people who've been down this road themselves, what they chose and why.
Cheers,
BIJ
I'm not thinking about creating a stripped out competition-only vehicle or chasing big power numbers for the sake of it. It's primarily a weekend car which will have occasional competition use. Therefore I want
1. good driveability on-road with fuel consumption unchanged (or improved?) compared to standard.
2. must pass emissions tests
3. significantly more low end torque
At the moment it appears I have two main options, ECUTEK and SimTek. I have been reading about APEXI etc, but it appears the game has moved on and SimTech is currently flavour of the month bang-for-buck.
So the options appear to be a re-map of the existing ECU using ECUTEK, or a change of ECU via SimTek (I have been trying to find out if there is any open source alternatives, but there appears not to be for the MY99/00).
So the question is, which route is best?
ECUTEK
Pros: reflashing of existing ECU, good mapping tools from what I understand, lots of experience out there, with good mapping at least as safe as standard ECU
Cons: cost? Once unlocked am I right in thinking I still don't have the new codes/software to make modifications, I'm dependent on the mappers for each subsequent change? Compromised fuel consumption because of competition mapping?
SimTek
Pros: seems flavour of the moment, more features possible (e.g. auto IC spray), software available to datalog and remap ? Possible to have >1 map, for example one for competition and one for daily use?
Cons: cost? Reliability of non OEM ECU ?
I'd be interested to hear from the "big beasts" in the mapping world what they think, and people who've been down this road themselves, what they chose and why.
Cheers,
BIJ
Last edited by Brit_in_Japan; 30 January 2008 at 09:21 PM.
30 January 2008, 09:53 PM
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I'd say the Simtek wins hands down just for the live mapping, and features that will allow you to go as far as you want to. The launch control is great for competition, even if they won't allow you to use the anti lag! It has on the fly switchable maps, MAF less operation, charge temp sensing and monitoring etc etc. Reliability won't be an issue over any other ECU, and at least these are UK based.
You know you want one!
You know you want one!
30 January 2008, 10:42 PM
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On a 99/00 car the simtek is the way to go, particularly if you are removing the airbox and fitting an induction kit.
99/00 maf sensors are notoriously unreliable once they are used outwith the rubber mounted OE airbox so thats anything over 350 ish bhp really.
Up to that level the OE Ecutek remap or an Apexi will also do a good job.
99/00 maf sensors are notoriously unreliable once they are used outwith the rubber mounted OE airbox so thats anything over 350 ish bhp really.
Up to that level the OE Ecutek remap or an Apexi will also do a good job.
30 January 2008, 10:57 PM
#6
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Taking the hard sell out of it there is actually no difference in the performance that can be achieved from either, the Jecs is actually a VERY good ecu in its own right correctly mapped. People have commented on the extra performance I gained for Dazza last weekend using a Simtek but in actuality I simply raised the bar, he had run at his previous level for a season with no problems at all so reliability was proven.
That said for low down grunt in lower the gears neither Simtek nor Jecs are ideal neither having in gear boost and wastegate duty compensation like some of the later OEM ecu's. If you want best low gear performance fit an AVC-R.
You have actually already defined the choice you should make, despite comments about launch control, that isn't always the best way to get a car off the line and ... you could shoot yourself in the foot by the time you got the settings right for the surface in question, its not a universal thing. I personally found it helped me on the drag strip but Andy F doesn't use it all the time, for example, afaik prefering to use his own developed launch technique. (Andy I stand corrected if thats not the case)
The boost control system of the Simtek has the capability to give you most what you want, using the twin maps available you can have one setup for your normal road use and the second then optimised to give you best low gear performance, since you wouldn't be using high gears the overboost that could occur on road would not be a problem, on the road flick the switch back, likewise you could also run enhanced fuel and ignition to go with. When setting up the AVC-R I am often asked for that combination.
If the car was strictly one use i.e. hill climb I could easily set the oem ecu to do the job but it would be at odds with normal road use.
Its not about bells and whistles, often simple is best, in this case for me, as mentioned, the choice was made in the first post, the required objectives should always determine which ecu, cost, features needed and configurability.
So go with the Simtek for the reasons outlined, not because of a hard sell or a bull up on the bells and whistles but simply because , in your case, it would get you the best result set up as described. Live mapping is time saving so if you are doing the job to a cost and deadline than thats helpful but the jecs is just as much of a pusseycat to map, for me, as any real time product, just takes a little longer.
A final word which is probably going to be sneered at from some quarters, the ecu should be set up on the road to optimise it for your hill climb use, there is no way on this earth that anyone could possibly mimic a hill climb start, low gear grind out of a corner et al on the rollers !!
Andy I totally disagree with your power limit and in the right mount the maf is more than capable of withstanding 450 bhp. Visa my car b4 Motec, Darrens for the whole of last year and quite a few cars running MD321H based setups at or on 400 bhp.
BIJ hope that helps the thinking
bob
That said for low down grunt in lower the gears neither Simtek nor Jecs are ideal neither having in gear boost and wastegate duty compensation like some of the later OEM ecu's. If you want best low gear performance fit an AVC-R.
You have actually already defined the choice you should make, despite comments about launch control, that isn't always the best way to get a car off the line and ... you could shoot yourself in the foot by the time you got the settings right for the surface in question, its not a universal thing. I personally found it helped me on the drag strip but Andy F doesn't use it all the time, for example, afaik prefering to use his own developed launch technique. (Andy I stand corrected if thats not the case)
The boost control system of the Simtek has the capability to give you most what you want, using the twin maps available you can have one setup for your normal road use and the second then optimised to give you best low gear performance, since you wouldn't be using high gears the overboost that could occur on road would not be a problem, on the road flick the switch back, likewise you could also run enhanced fuel and ignition to go with. When setting up the AVC-R I am often asked for that combination.
If the car was strictly one use i.e. hill climb I could easily set the oem ecu to do the job but it would be at odds with normal road use.
Its not about bells and whistles, often simple is best, in this case for me, as mentioned, the choice was made in the first post, the required objectives should always determine which ecu, cost, features needed and configurability.
So go with the Simtek for the reasons outlined, not because of a hard sell or a bull up on the bells and whistles but simply because , in your case, it would get you the best result set up as described. Live mapping is time saving so if you are doing the job to a cost and deadline than thats helpful but the jecs is just as much of a pusseycat to map, for me, as any real time product, just takes a little longer.
A final word which is probably going to be sneered at from some quarters, the ecu should be set up on the road to optimise it for your hill climb use, there is no way on this earth that anyone could possibly mimic a hill climb start, low gear grind out of a corner et al on the rollers !!
Andy I totally disagree with your power limit and in the right mount the maf is more than capable of withstanding 450 bhp. Visa my car b4 Motec, Darrens for the whole of last year and quite a few cars running MD321H based setups at or on 400 bhp.
BIJ hope that helps the thinking
bob
Last edited by Bob Rawle; 30 January 2008 at 11:01 PM.
30 January 2008, 11:07 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
Taking the hard sell out of it there is actually no difference in the performance that can be achieved from either, the Jecs is actually a VERY good ecu in its own right correctly mapped. People have commented on the extra performance I gained for Dazza last weekend using a Simtek but in actuality I simply raised the bar, he had run at his previous level for a season with no problems at all so reliability was proven.
That said for low down grunt in lower the gears neither Simtek nor Jecs are ideal neither having in gear boost and wastegate duty compensation like some of the later OEM ecu's. If you want best low gear performance fit an AVC-R.
You have actually already defined the choice you should make, despite comments about launch control, that isn't always the best way to get a car off the line and ... you could shoot yourself in the foot by the time you got the settings right for the surface in question, its not a universal thing. I personally found it helped me on the drag strip but Andy F doesn't use it all the time, for example, afaik prefering to use his own developed launch technique. (Andy I stand corrected if thats not the case)
The boost control system of the Simtek has the capability to give you most what you want, using the twin maps available you can have one setup for your normal road use and the second then optimised to give you best low gear performance, since you wouldn't be using high gears the overboost that could occur on road would not be a problem, on the road flick the switch back, likewise you could also run enhanced fuel and ignition to go with. When setting up the AVC-R I am often asked for that combination.
If the car was strictly one use i.e. hill climb I could easily set the oem ecu to do the job but it would be at odds with normal road use.
Its not about bells and whistles, often simple is best, in this case for me, as mentioned, the choice was made in the first post, the required objectives should always determine which ecu, cost, features needed and configurability.
So go with the Simtek for the reasons outlined, not because of a hard sell or a bull up on the bells and whistles but simply because , in your case, it would get you the best result set up as described. Live mapping is time saving so if you are doing the job to a cost and deadline than thats helpful but the jecs is just as much of a pusseycat to map, for me, as any real time product, just takes a little longer.
A final word which is probably going to be sneered at from some quarters, the ecu should be set up on the road to optimise it for your hill climb use, there is no way on this earth that anyone could possibly mimic a hill climb start, low gear grind out of a corner et al on the rollers !!
Andy I totally disagree with your power limit and in the right mount the maf is more than capable of withstanding 450 bhp. Visa my car b4 Motec, Darrens for the whole of last year and quite a few cars running MD321H based setups at or on 400 bhp.
BIJ hope that helps the thinking
bob
That said for low down grunt in lower the gears neither Simtek nor Jecs are ideal neither having in gear boost and wastegate duty compensation like some of the later OEM ecu's. If you want best low gear performance fit an AVC-R.
You have actually already defined the choice you should make, despite comments about launch control, that isn't always the best way to get a car off the line and ... you could shoot yourself in the foot by the time you got the settings right for the surface in question, its not a universal thing. I personally found it helped me on the drag strip but Andy F doesn't use it all the time, for example, afaik prefering to use his own developed launch technique. (Andy I stand corrected if thats not the case)
The boost control system of the Simtek has the capability to give you most what you want, using the twin maps available you can have one setup for your normal road use and the second then optimised to give you best low gear performance, since you wouldn't be using high gears the overboost that could occur on road would not be a problem, on the road flick the switch back, likewise you could also run enhanced fuel and ignition to go with. When setting up the AVC-R I am often asked for that combination.
If the car was strictly one use i.e. hill climb I could easily set the oem ecu to do the job but it would be at odds with normal road use.
Its not about bells and whistles, often simple is best, in this case for me, as mentioned, the choice was made in the first post, the required objectives should always determine which ecu, cost, features needed and configurability.
So go with the Simtek for the reasons outlined, not because of a hard sell or a bull up on the bells and whistles but simply because , in your case, it would get you the best result set up as described. Live mapping is time saving so if you are doing the job to a cost and deadline than thats helpful but the jecs is just as much of a pusseycat to map, for me, as any real time product, just takes a little longer.
A final word which is probably going to be sneered at from some quarters, the ecu should be set up on the road to optimise it for your hill climb use, there is no way on this earth that anyone could possibly mimic a hill climb start, low gear grind out of a corner et al on the rollers !!
Andy I totally disagree with your power limit and in the right mount the maf is more than capable of withstanding 450 bhp. Visa my car b4 Motec, Darrens for the whole of last year and quite a few cars running MD321H based setups at or on 400 bhp.
BIJ hope that helps the thinking
bob
Sorry Bob , you are incorrect...I would have thought you with your 3d thinking would have found that the SimTek does indeed have in gear boost compensation for both target boost and wastegate duty tables...
It's very good too and can be combined with an aftermarket 3 port solenoid....
FYI the gear based corrections can be found in the closed loop section just under INTEGRAL MINIMUM ...
You do of course need to go throuh the speed settings for the gearbox in the vehicle speed setup option so the vehicle knows which gear you are in first...
If you require any help feel free to call.....
As an aside , the OFFICIAL line from SimTek is that you require a rolling road to get the best from this ecu and many others like it....
Last edited by MartynJ; 30 January 2008 at 11:31 PM.
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30 January 2008, 11:37 PM
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Yes Bob, you are correct I don't use launch control on my race car.
Regards the power capacity of the 99/00 maf, I also agree that it can run to 450+bhp however the power capacity is not my concern, its the reliability, you just can't guarantee it will not drift and lean out the top end fueling one day
The more power you are making the fewer seconds your engine will survive a failing maf.
No, no, no, don't go there 
Regards the power capacity of the 99/00 maf, I also agree that it can run to 450+bhp however the power capacity is not my concern, its the reliability, you just can't guarantee it will not drift and lean out the top end fueling one day
The more power you are making the fewer seconds your engine will survive a failing maf.
Last edited by Andy.F; 30 January 2008 at 11:47 PM.
31 January 2008, 08:02 AM
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Once again a crude attempt to give the impression that anyone who has a dyno does ALL the mapping on the rollers! Silly boy.. WE have the choice to run it anyway we choose, as we own our own dyno as well as a fully staffed and equipped workshop and every car we map is tested in every way appropriate. BTW I competed in hillclimbing over some 20 years.
There is no hard sell going on, we are a top ten Ecutek dealer as it happens. I just happen to think that for this road/competition application, the Simtek is best for the job.
There is no hard sell going on, we are a top ten Ecutek dealer as it happens. I just happen to think that for this road/competition application, the Simtek is best for the job.
31 January 2008, 09:37 AM
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And another thing.. ( I seethed about this all the way to the office! ) 
What's the first thing Bob does when he sets up his frst Simtek?
He sticks it on a dyno!
The upshot is, we both agree that the man is best served by a Simtek.
I don't know why Bob couldn't just say that, without having a pop at those of us who are trying to do the best for people.
Andy F ? launch control? he certainly doesn't need it with his fancy footwork. It's all that dancing on sabres y'know....
What's the first thing Bob does when he sets up his frst Simtek?
He sticks it on a dyno!
The upshot is, we both agree that the man is best served by a Simtek.
I don't know why Bob couldn't just say that, without having a pop at those of us who are trying to do the best for people.
Andy F ? launch control? he certainly doesn't need it with his fancy footwork. It's all that dancing on sabres y'know....
31 January 2008, 11:28 AM
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Bob certainly doesn't need me to defend his tuning methods but I think I can safely assume the purpose of the dyno time was to speed up the process of compiling his own base maps.
Once you have your own base maps for each version then its down to the real tuning on the road.
This arguement has been done to death but suffice to say all the UK's quickest Imprezas have been optimised on the road/track, their current maps may be some way from the dyno derived base maps, if indeed they have ever been on a dyno ? I know one fairly swift that certainly hasn't !
I develop all my base maps on the road, it is however more time consuming, I can't rattle through 6 per day !!
Once you have your own base maps for each version then its down to the real tuning on the road.
This arguement has been done to death but suffice to say all the UK's quickest Imprezas have been optimised on the road/track, their current maps may be some way from the dyno derived base maps, if indeed they have ever been on a dyno ? I know one fairly swift that certainly hasn't !
I develop all my base maps on the road, it is however more time consuming, I can't rattle through 6 per day !!
31 January 2008, 11:39 AM
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lol, on a speed density ECU such as the Simtek then having a dyno can save time, however most of the cars I map are still running airflow meters and I really do not like setting them up on a dyno as the air currents across the maf cannot be simulated properly, this can cause issues.
31 January 2008, 11:50 AM
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I'm not arguing with the very idea of being able to set a car up on the road or preferably track. What I'm saying is that WE ALSO use on-road testing and tuning AS WELL as our dyno. WE have the option, along with anyone else who owns thier own dyno.
31 January 2008, 11:56 AM
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STi Freak, I'm sorry but I take umbrage at your unwarranted attack upon an ethnic minority! 
31 January 2008, 12:19 PM
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31 January 2008, 01:20 PM
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31 January 2008, 06:54 PM
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Thanks for the input guys.
SimTek appears to be the way forward. Launch control doesn't interest me, I like my gearbox bits to be in the same shape and order as they are now. Besides I was getting quicker run by run last year and a 2.25 start on standard road tyres isn't too shabby. Anti-lag sounds fun but I assume it'll bugger up my catalytic converters which isn't exactly a budget option. Can anyone confirm that with SimTek the software/cables etc are available to mere mortals so that after it's been purchased/setup etc that I can play around with the maps as mods permit? It may not be the quickest way to increase the performance of the car, or the least risk, but I would have an urge to fettle.
Thanks again !
BIJ
I thought the MY99/00 ECU was about the only ECU where an open source solution doesn't exist?
SimTek appears to be the way forward. Launch control doesn't interest me, I like my gearbox bits to be in the same shape and order as they are now. Besides I was getting quicker run by run last year and a 2.25 start on standard road tyres isn't too shabby. Anti-lag sounds fun but I assume it'll bugger up my catalytic converters which isn't exactly a budget option. Can anyone confirm that with SimTek the software/cables etc are available to mere mortals so that after it's been purchased/setup etc that I can play around with the maps as mods permit? It may not be the quickest way to increase the performance of the car, or the least risk, but I would have an urge to fettle.
Thanks again !
BIJ
If it can be ECUTEK'd it can be Open Source'd..... not that this is the best solution.
31 January 2008, 07:36 PM
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The mafsim has been causing problems in some cars Mark so I stopped supplying them some time ago, pity as it was an ideal solution to that particular issue.
31 January 2008, 08:08 PM
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Thanks for the input guys.
SimTek appears to be the way forward. Launch control doesn't interest me, I like my gearbox bits to be in the same shape and order as they are now. Besides I was getting quicker run by run last year and a 2.25 start on standard road tyres isn't too shabby. Anti-lag sounds fun but I assume it'll bugger up my catalytic converters which isn't exactly a budget option. Can anyone confirm that with SimTek the software/cables etc are available to mere mortals so that after it's been purchased/setup etc that I can play around with the maps as mods permit? It may not be the quickest way to increase the performance of the car, or the least risk, but I would have an urge to fettle.
Thanks again !
BIJ
I thought the MY99/00 ECU was about the only ECU where an open source solution doesn't exist?
SimTek appears to be the way forward. Launch control doesn't interest me, I like my gearbox bits to be in the same shape and order as they are now. Besides I was getting quicker run by run last year and a 2.25 start on standard road tyres isn't too shabby. Anti-lag sounds fun but I assume it'll bugger up my catalytic converters which isn't exactly a budget option. Can anyone confirm that with SimTek the software/cables etc are available to mere mortals so that after it's been purchased/setup etc that I can play around with the maps as mods permit? It may not be the quickest way to increase the performance of the car, or the least risk, but I would have an urge to fettle.
Thanks again !
BIJ
I thought the MY99/00 ECU was about the only ECU where an open source solution doesn't exist?
Yes the software and cables are available to the owner of the ecu , this will program this ecu only ......