rob4620

I couldn't help thinking on looking at my midlevel spoiler on my type RA that aerodynamicaly it is doing absolutley nothing at all, if anything it's just adding unnecessary weight, I would be interested in peoples thoughts....



Cheers,

Rob.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

cosmetic. Can you have active wings in hillclimbing?

RON

I took mine off, and added a BMW lip... view my scooby!!

I actually got MORE mpg without the wing.... so yes, it is doing something, it's costing you fuel and creating drag!!

34srm

you got more mpg you have gotta be joking

_Meridian_

iTrader: (1)

Why? It's what you'd expect. If the wing creates downforce then it will create drag: that's basic aerodynamics. Even if it doesn't create downforce, it STILL creates parasitic drag just be being there. Since the energy to overcome drag comes from burning fuel, more drag=worse fuel consumption.


To the OP, the only question is: how much do you need the downforce it generates? If you drive at legal speeds only, then you don't need it (downforce at 70mph is pretty trivial), but if you er, go a bit faster, then at 100mph plus it's pretty important.


M

RON

However, i have tested my 'lip' spoiler at speeds in excess of double the national motorway limit at track days, and have found no adverse effect from not having it.... ie, the car and me are still alive!!!

rob4620

You cannot change the cars silhouette above the wheel centres, which in theory means only the spoiler it came out of the factory with.

However a spoiler from another subaru model could be considered an optional extra.

The reason I raised the question is I am stripping my car out and have hit a bit of a wall, so a 4.5 kilo spoiler (I just weighed it) seem slike easy prey if it's doing nothing at all.

RON

Well.. as your car is i believe an RA, that means they came without a spoiler doesn't it..... so remove it!!!

jasonius

iTrader: (1)

Interesting this as I've often thought about fitting an STI spoiler to my newage wrx, purely as I think they look better than the oem ironing board..

However, two things (well three actually, but more on that at the end..). Firstly they weigh >5 kgs more and second, surly they MUST add to high speed drag. This could partly answer why you get better MPG from a similar powered WRX v's STI..!

Oh and the third reason..? Less likely to accrue unwanted attention as it's 'only' a WRX..

mystic_magic

I've often wondered if they really do much.

I mean those 2007 Type RA-R-A-RAR Uber thingys they did a hand full of didnt have them at all in all the pics ive seen.

drjsd

Mine feels more stable in excess of 100mph than say 60 - 90mph, when it seems a bit skittish. Whether the extra downforce is just provided by the actual car rather than any wing is probably open to debate.

Aren't most spoilers for show rather than for any effect?

I seem to recall when the Beetle or TT, I think it was, was released, they had to change the speed at which the spoiler was coming up to something like 60mph as too many people were complaining that it wasn't working. The fact that you had to be doing way in excess of the speed limit to activate it escaped most punters!

Would be interesting to know whether there actually is any change in downforce with a spoiler. Having said that, the look just isn't quite right without one, at least on the one I've seen round me.

KINGTIGER

I've been told that spoilers don't work unless you are doing over 90mph.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

But did u see that koenigsegg on top gear amazing high speed but was all over the place.

The swedish company put a small spoiler on it, handled better but its top speed was reduced.

wrx450

Hi Rob

as above ,does not look too bad. In fact very stealthy with the new lights. Over the past 8 or so years I have tried all three size Subaru wings and noticed absolutely no positive difference between the three. I finally took the wing off at a drag meet several years ago as I needed to find a few tenths. Recalled that the Nissan GTR wings were adjustable and the best times were with the wings flat or removed and for the very high powered cars a totally different design was used. Picked up 2/10ths and 3mph and have had it off ever since. It does create drag!! The Sti version weighed 7 odd kilos and as I have also gone through the stripping process for hillclimbing it was the easiest weight saved.

Look at most of the latest hi perfomance cars from Germany which do not require large wings, most have small lip wings or none at all-M3, M5, RS4 all can at least do 155mph. Yes they do have other aerodynamic aids, but they do without a wing. I am sure that not many hillclimb courses cater for 155mph plus, maybe some sections 120-130 mph tops?.

It looks like the Japanese have a soft spot for wings, compared to their European counterparts.

From going to many drag racing meets since a young lad, I have noticed that the fastest drag cars with huge terminal speeds 150mph+ had no aerodynamc aids and performed very well. Old school V8s would never consider such 'boy racer' rubbish.

I must admit though that Zen Performance Buddy Club wing does look good and most likely works on a circuit with long straights.

StickyMicky

not very technical but

take it off, then drive down the road in the rain at high speed and see what happens to the drops of water on the back screen

with the mid level one fitted the water droplets on my car go around in a circle, with an aftermarket one fitted they shot off down the screen straight, and i cant remember what they did with no spoiler fitted (did this about 5 years back )

cster

IMO, the only thing a rear wing will add too is understeer
+ drag and poor MPG as you mention

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

Sure I remember reading that the spoilers originally came on the road cars due to the homologation rules for the rally cars ( where they probably do have a lot more effect and are more useful ), also that they dont really do much under 80mph.

astraboy

having said that my crappy rubber band powered Volvo 340 came without a spoiler so I ripped one off a scrap 340 purely for cosmetic purposes. However, once fitted, I noticed a significant decrease in the amount the car got pushed about by artic lorry slipstreams when overtaking.
astraboy.

Anger

iTrader: (4)

Ive just taken my one off my Ra and havnt noticed any difference at all

silent running

YOu could do a string test to get an idea of your airflow pattern across the rear. Get loads of short lengths (i.e. 6") of string, tape them with masking tape all over your rear deck and window and see what happens. Do they sit flat with the airflow, wave around (turbulence) etc? Then take the wing off and see if there's any difference. Similar to the raindrops experiment above.

I can't personally see how it can do a great deal. I'm no aero expert but from the little I do know, it's acting as a wing rather than a spoiler, for which it would need to be in clear air to work properly. It would also need a more 'designed' profile to actually give downforce, either flat profile but angled up at the rear, an overall curve up (think WRC Escorts or was it Gp A, I can't remember, not the Cossie wing anyway); but from memory it's just a rounded off, chunky 'plank' really. Hence probably doesn't do a lot. Perhaps if it was much higher up, or as the latest WRC cars have, it had some other aero aids to bring clean straight airflow through it first.

A small ducktail or lip spoiler on the rear edge of the boot, new BMW style would probably give more actual downforce, or more accurately, deal with unwanted lift at the rear. This would of course need to be in conjunction with a splitter of some kind upfront.

Moley

iTrader: (9)

There was a similar thread recently on the MLR. A few people posted pics of Evo's doing high speed runs and the effect it had on the spoilers, and it was interesting to see. Will try to find a link.

Basically the spoilers were bending in the middle, as there was so much downforce being produced. One guy removed his, and spun it at 183mph. (Lifted off and the lack of downforce to the rear end made it spin)

Fair enough 187mhp is an extreme example, but you get the rough idea.
What kind of speed you'd need to be going to feel the effect is debatable, but they do seem to serve some purpose.

Link: About half way down page 4.... Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum - My 183mph Spin @ RAF Marham

(Good video on page 1....brown pants moment )

Anger

iTrader: (4)

Most of the fastest Drag strip scoobs dont have spoilers and you dont hear about them crashing

I think if you slam on the brakes at the top end it might make a difference, but how many times are you traveling at 140mph plus

Moley

iTrader: (9)

Very true old chap.

Although i believe Andy F has a similar spoiler to RON.

I personally don't think you'd need one, as it isn't often (if at all) the car would be going quick enough to need it.

scoobyDAZZA

i bought a spare bootlid for the above reason, see if i could get a quicker time on the 1/4 mile , as it happened the car developed another problem so i didn't beat my PB

but i certainly noticed a difference on the motorway running wingless
i changed lanes alot more steadily, put it that way

'view my scooby' and i have a pic of the said bootlid

i have just won an e-bay auction for a carbon version, so it will be wingless once again for next season

scoobyDAZZA

2 of the quickest scoobs in the country

1. andy f
2. SMG, steve guiry

andy does indeed use the small bmw lip
steve doesn't use 1 at all

Anger

iTrader: (4)

How lucky was the Evo owner in the Vid Gary

Moley

iTrader: (9)

God knows how it didn't roll when it hit the grass. Lucky boy!!!

rob4620

Both are drag cars where downforce is a hindernace, mine is a hillclimb race car where downforce would be ideal if I thought my current spoiler was actually providing any, the fastest real corner I will take is probaly about 90 mph but generaly more around the 50/60mph mark, so I just want as much traction as possible but like I said at the top I don't think my current spoiler is doing anything but weighing me down.

rob878

Coming from a karting back ground (used to build formula ice 250's for f1 karts years before my current job) At the speeds you are talking about the negative lift created by the spoiler will be negligible, however the additional weight (was it +5kg) would make a difference in your handling. As far as i remember the small turbo escort cossies had lighter rate rear springs down to the fact they came without a fookin heavy spoiler on the rear end.

The problems mentioned earlier about audi tt's and the retro addition of the rear spoiler was the disturb the flow over the rear end as the profile of the body work was creating lift, The spoiler was added, not to create negative lift but to disturb the air flow and ensure that lift didn't occur.

The only reason i can think of for keeping the spoiler would be for lateral stability and this maybe improved by adding extra strakes underneath the main foil ala WRC cars, thereby improving lateral stability at the speeds you're talking about.

All ideas are purely just that "ideas" and in no way should be quoted nor taken as actually being true. however it might just work jim

Just looking at the profile of your wing compared to those fitted to current generation of WRC cars, it would seem that that style would be more beneficial to the speeds you run at. If you look at the amount of strakes fitted and the size of the gurney flap to create meaning full negative lift and lateral stability. As was mentioned before the fitment of the spoiler to the road car was only for homologation purposes thus allowing much more beneficially shaped spoiler to be used on rally cars

911

I'm sure the original WRX etc came spoiler-less?

If so Rob, I would think you can argue the point if the Eligibility Scrute came after you.
Find a pic of a stock wing-less Impreza (a Sport?) and have it with you to proove the point.

I know that the Cossie have to keep theirs on as they were all made with the famous spoilers, but knowledge of the Impreza history is very light IMHO amongst Scrutes.

Bad news could be that the other Imprezas in the classes will have them on.

StickyMicky

you dont hear about them going around corners either