Newage STi intercooler efficiency -graph
05 July 2007, 03:39 PM
#1
Newage STi intercooler efficiency -graph
I never had any time last year to rig up a data logger and measure temps in and out of the STi intercooler on my modded blobby wagon.
I've at last got my finger out and fitted the gear on my Spec D.
I used K junc. thermocouples with the IC inlet being just tucked under the hose.
The outlet (or charge tmep) was installed directly into the IC to TB hose - I found last year that tucking the temp sensor under the hose (against metal) gives elevated charge temp readings. The charge temp sensor should be as insulated from other heat sources as far as possible.
The graph below shows initial results on a nearby dual carriageway with several roundabouts.
or view at http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...STi_IC_eff.jpg
The straights are taken at WOT up to 5th gear.
Air temp was 20 deg C but this had reached a 26 deg C charge temp off boost, so some insulation of the inlet system may be worth persuing.
Delta dash was reporting 27 deg c at the MAF, so the focus of insulation will be pre MAF.
It appears that the IC efficiency is 70% and I can't see any heat soak going on for the 2 miles I tested.
As I mod the car the I'll carry out further logging.
Any other comments?
Nick
I've at last got my finger out and fitted the gear on my Spec D.
I used K junc. thermocouples with the IC inlet being just tucked under the hose.
The outlet (or charge tmep) was installed directly into the IC to TB hose - I found last year that tucking the temp sensor under the hose (against metal) gives elevated charge temp readings. The charge temp sensor should be as insulated from other heat sources as far as possible.
The graph below shows initial results on a nearby dual carriageway with several roundabouts.
or view at http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...STi_IC_eff.jpg
The straights are taken at WOT up to 5th gear.
Air temp was 20 deg C but this had reached a 26 deg C charge temp off boost, so some insulation of the inlet system may be worth persuing.
Delta dash was reporting 27 deg c at the MAF, so the focus of insulation will be pre MAF.
It appears that the IC efficiency is 70% and I can't see any heat soak going on for the 2 miles I tested.
As I mod the car the I'll carry out further logging.
Any other comments?
Nick
05 July 2007, 03:57 PM
#2
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Quite similar to what i see. Maf temps seem to be quite high in relation to charge. It does make me wonder how better to insulate the intake prior to turbo. I guess is does'nt help that the maf is sitting in that space right above the up-pipe?
05 July 2007, 06:15 PM
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Interesting as I've been thinking about intake mods (keeping as stock looking as possible).
First step was this:
Airboxinsulation3.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Last week I tried a snorkelectomy with a GP elbow, which improved temps on the move but heated up quicker, from the second you stopped (cooling down almost the second you moved off). With the snorkel/resonator in place, heatsoak was slower, however, once hot it took a lot longer to cool down again..!
This would tend to correspond with your findings that the inlet prior to MAF needs insulating, hence the first step above.
If you remove and inspect the ram scoop it's fairly obvious that there's a lot of heat immediately underneath (very hot rad and header pipes) and the scoop itself has a few holes in it, presumably for water drainage, which certainly won't help matters. Nor will the fact that the scoop is black..!
At the moment I'm running the resonator to evaluate things before deciding what to do. Here's my thread about what I've found so far:
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...-activity.html
First step was this:
Airboxinsulation3.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Last week I tried a snorkelectomy with a GP elbow, which improved temps on the move but heated up quicker, from the second you stopped (cooling down almost the second you moved off). With the snorkel/resonator in place, heatsoak was slower, however, once hot it took a lot longer to cool down again..!
This would tend to correspond with your findings that the inlet prior to MAF needs insulating, hence the first step above.
If you remove and inspect the ram scoop it's fairly obvious that there's a lot of heat immediately underneath (very hot rad and header pipes) and the scoop itself has a few holes in it, presumably for water drainage, which certainly won't help matters. Nor will the fact that the scoop is black..!
At the moment I'm running the resonator to evaluate things before deciding what to do. Here's my thread about what I've found so far:
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...-activity.html
05 July 2007, 11:28 PM
#4
Butty : I am having difficulty reading the scale as I cannot magnify it.
What were the actual temperatures you were seeing?
I don't know about New Age cars but on Classics there are a number of things that can be done to drop the temperature prior to the turbo. First thing is to remove the rubber on the bonnet above the drivers side headlight. Then move the hot water pipes that run over the top of the induction tract. Then insulate the header tank and the inlet tract itself. All these little things make a difference.
I actually make a carbon fibre divider with a heat blanket glued on the engine facing side to isolate the engine bay heat from the area from the chassis rail to the inner wing which means this area stays cool.
However, the biggest source of heat comes from the compression of air and I think that reducing temperatures in the inlet tract has a limited benefit.
What were the actual temperatures you were seeing?
I don't know about New Age cars but on Classics there are a number of things that can be done to drop the temperature prior to the turbo. First thing is to remove the rubber on the bonnet above the drivers side headlight. Then move the hot water pipes that run over the top of the induction tract. Then insulate the header tank and the inlet tract itself. All these little things make a difference.
I actually make a carbon fibre divider with a heat blanket glued on the engine facing side to isolate the engine bay heat from the area from the chassis rail to the inner wing which means this area stays cool.
However, the biggest source of heat comes from the compression of air and I think that reducing temperatures in the inlet tract has a limited benefit.
06 July 2007, 08:16 AM
#5
Hi Harvey - seems to be a feature of photobucket that pictures are only 800 x 600 now, so the graph isn't very clear.
Are there any other hosting companies that offer a better sized image?
The red trace is the charge temp which range from 26 to a peak of 37 deg C.
Green is pre IC temps. These range from 45 to 130 deg C.
With logging is at 200ms intervals and using K type thermocuples there is some very quick temp responses shown with gear changes.
When I started looking at charge temps on my last car, I had already ditched the snorkel and ram scoop. Air was brought in via drainpipe tubing in the wing with existing trunking holes sealed up.
This resulted in cruise charge temps being only no more than 1 deg above outside air temp. I'll adopt this set up again when the car gets a first set of mods.
Based on the hawkeye results, there is some 7 deg C to try and remove before post turbo temps are tackled.
Are there any other hosting companies that offer a better sized image?
The red trace is the charge temp which range from 26 to a peak of 37 deg C.
Green is pre IC temps. These range from 45 to 130 deg C.
With logging is at 200ms intervals and using K type thermocuples there is some very quick temp responses shown with gear changes.
When I started looking at charge temps on my last car, I had already ditched the snorkel and ram scoop. Air was brought in via drainpipe tubing in the wing with existing trunking holes sealed up.
This resulted in cruise charge temps being only no more than 1 deg above outside air temp. I'll adopt this set up again when the car gets a first set of mods.
Based on the hawkeye results, there is some 7 deg C to try and remove before post turbo temps are tackled.
06 July 2007, 11:14 AM
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Just coming back to this, when I've previously checked CT's at TB they've always been at ambient on cruise, rising with boost and returning back to ambient almost immediately off boost..
(modded WRX running STI8 TMCI with scoop/undertray/VF35).
I've often thought about Harvey's point that the pre turbo temps are of little consequence given the heat generated by the turbo. Then again, why do our cars feel so much quicker in the winter..?
(modded WRX running STI8 TMCI with scoop/undertray/VF35).I've often thought about Harvey's point that the pre turbo temps are of little consequence given the heat generated by the turbo. Then again, why do our cars feel so much quicker in the winter..?
06 July 2007, 12:13 PM
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Because its also cooler air going through the IC to cool the charge down perhaps?
Turbo heat build is approximately constant so 10C increase in is 10C increase out, however the IC out temp is related to IC in and cooling air temp, so all round a 15C reduction in ambients will see a 15C reduction in manifold air temp, or about a 5% reduction, or about a 5% increase in air density (plus the knock - or lack of effect).
Simon
Turbo heat build is approximately constant so 10C increase in is 10C increase out, however the IC out temp is related to IC in and cooling air temp, so all round a 15C reduction in ambients will see a 15C reduction in manifold air temp, or about a 5% reduction, or about a 5% increase in air density (plus the knock - or lack of effect).
Simon
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07 July 2007, 11:24 PM
#11
Gaz :
The above is from another thread.
The guages come from Mike Rainbird for around £45.
All Classic up to STi6 beyond 300 bhp have TMIC charge temp issues.
The situation on the STi 7 was a good improvement and there was a further improvement on the STi 8.
If you fit such a guage please post the information that you get.
They Hybrid is a cost effective budget solution that will have saved many engines to date and will save many more in the future.
Mike Rainbird R&B Motorsport.co.uk | Suppliers of everything you need for your trackday or fast road Ford RS vehicle. does a charge temperature guage for change out of £50 posted and you can monitor your own charge temperatures if you doubt the information presented here. You will know when it is time to lift off and that will become more important with increasing Summer temperatures. I guess this has preserved several engines already.
Mike Rainbird R&B Motorsport.co.uk | Suppliers of everything you need for your trackday or fast road Ford RS vehicle. does a charge temperature guage for change out of £50 posted and you can monitor your own charge temperatures if you doubt the information presented here. You will know when it is time to lift off and that will become more important with increasing Summer temperatures. I guess this has preserved several engines already.
The guages come from Mike Rainbird for around £45.
All Classic up to STi6 beyond 300 bhp have TMIC charge temp issues.
The situation on the STi 7 was a good improvement and there was a further improvement on the STi 8.
If you fit such a guage please post the information that you get.
08 July 2007, 01:10 AM
#12
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Try Maplins for a really cheap solution !
Some idea is better than none ?
P.S. having fitted a BIG buck FMIC, I agree that a top-mount is better for a road car, up to silly horsepower, where I hope to end-up
But my STI V7 suffered badly on hot days, you could feel the power dropping away....
Some idea is better than none ?
P.S. having fitted a BIG buck FMIC, I agree that a top-mount is better for a road car, up to silly horsepower, where I hope to end-up
But my STI V7 suffered badly on hot days, you could feel the power dropping away....
09 July 2007, 05:57 PM
#13
Interesting information 
I have made various mods on my car that brought down the MAF temp to ambient. This includes removing std airbox and using an inner wing mounted Cold Air Kit. This is fed a plentiful supply of cold air from the front bumper using ducting from a fog light surrond.
This sees MAF temps of Ambient (ish) can never but 100% as both the car temp gauge and delta dash do not show decimal on the temps.
Removal of the throttle coolant feed helps reduce the charge temps too, particularly in closed throttle situations such as between gear changes or braking into corners where the 90 Degree coolant would normally have been boiling the air sat there. This has improved responsiveness in my view.
As a result, my charge temps measured under the IC to Throttle Body hose with an SPA Design guage show charge temp on cruise of MAF temp -1C and a WOT runs through all the gears taking it to MAF temp + 15C.
I have found this not to increase with track use as the time decelerating is now cooling the air rather than the coolant feed heating it. As a result, the temps are sustainable for prolonged periods at the boost levels I am running. A recent sub 9 min lap of the ring with 28C air temp and 40C track temp saw charge temps at no more than 45C at the end off the 2.5km flat out (on boost) climb up Kesselchen.
I have made various mods on my car that brought down the MAF temp to ambient. This includes removing std airbox and using an inner wing mounted Cold Air Kit. This is fed a plentiful supply of cold air from the front bumper using ducting from a fog light surrond.
This sees MAF temps of Ambient (ish) can never but 100% as both the car temp gauge and delta dash do not show decimal on the temps.
Removal of the throttle coolant feed helps reduce the charge temps too, particularly in closed throttle situations such as between gear changes or braking into corners where the 90 Degree coolant would normally have been boiling the air sat there. This has improved responsiveness in my view.
As a result, my charge temps measured under the IC to Throttle Body hose with an SPA Design guage show charge temp on cruise of MAF temp -1C and a WOT runs through all the gears taking it to MAF temp + 15C.
I have found this not to increase with track use as the time decelerating is now cooling the air rather than the coolant feed heating it. As a result, the temps are sustainable for prolonged periods at the boost levels I am running. A recent sub 9 min lap of the ring with 28C air temp and 40C track temp saw charge temps at no more than 45C at the end off the 2.5km flat out (on boost) climb up Kesselchen.
09 July 2007, 07:00 PM
#14
Removal of the throttle coolant feed helps reduce the charge temps too, particularly in closed throttle situations such as between gear changes or braking into corners where the 90 Degree coolant would normally have been boiling the air sat there. This has improved responsiveness in my view.
09 July 2007, 07:08 PM
#15
there are two pipes that connect to the throttle body designed to feed engine coolant around the throttle body to stop it icing up in extreme conditions ie -10C. Obviously it isnt that temp all the time here so what it is doing is heating the air up - bad idea.
Disconnect the hoses (best to clamp them first to stop you pouring coolant over the back of the engine) and join them together. The hoses are about 12mm thick and need a simple connector piece - the two spring clamps can be used.
1 min job if you can get to the bottom hose (under the throttle body) to unclamp it without taking the TMIC off. I couldnt so it took me 15 min as I needed to take the TMIC off to do it.
Simple and cost £2 for the connector.
Pre this mod, cruise charge temps were Ambient +2C iirc but would shoot up immediately on closed throttle and soar if standing idling. Now the closed throttle temps rise by 0.1 C every second. So if you have stopped at traffic lights, or pitlane or start of the strip they are not going through the roof.
Most of the pro guys do this mod by the way - I will be connecting the two together again once into proper winter conditions.
Disconnect the hoses (best to clamp them first to stop you pouring coolant over the back of the engine) and join them together. The hoses are about 12mm thick and need a simple connector piece - the two spring clamps can be used.
1 min job if you can get to the bottom hose (under the throttle body) to unclamp it without taking the TMIC off. I couldnt so it took me 15 min as I needed to take the TMIC off to do it.
Simple and cost £2 for the connector.
Pre this mod, cruise charge temps were Ambient +2C iirc but would shoot up immediately on closed throttle and soar if standing idling. Now the closed throttle temps rise by 0.1 C every second. So if you have stopped at traffic lights, or pitlane or start of the strip they are not going through the roof.
Most of the pro guys do this mod by the way - I will be connecting the two together again once into proper winter conditions.
09 July 2007, 10:26 PM
#22
Dynamix - nice confirming info there.
The temp checking I've done to date has been done on the (fast) road) and only one track session, so its good to hear from some proper hard track work that the STi IC still stands up to abuse.
I'll try the throttle bypass as well, but first its to get the MAF temps down.
Although I did the snorkelectomy last year, I still kept the std air box and panel filter, but MAF temps were down to near ambient.
The temp pick up must come from the trunk going across the engine bay to the snorkel.
As for the throttle bypass, does there have to be a flow of coolant from one pipe to another, regardless of the TB being conected or not? I was thinking of just closing off the two pipes and linking them?
Nick
The temp checking I've done to date has been done on the (fast) road) and only one track session, so its good to hear from some proper hard track work that the STi IC still stands up to abuse.
I'll try the throttle bypass as well, but first its to get the MAF temps down.
Although I did the snorkelectomy last year, I still kept the std air box and panel filter, but MAF temps were down to near ambient.
The temp pick up must come from the trunk going across the engine bay to the snorkel.
As for the throttle bypass, does there have to be a flow of coolant from one pipe to another, regardless of the TB being conected or not? I was thinking of just closing off the two pipes and linking them?
Nick
09 July 2007, 10:42 PM
#23
Yep - the temp increase comes from that trunk.
To start with I fed ducting from the front bumper fog light surround straight into the airbox:
This lowered the MAF temps by loads (about 4C) and meant I could bin the trumpet thingy from the engine bay and the resonator from the inner wing.
To start with I fed ducting from the front bumper fog light surround straight into the airbox:
This lowered the MAF temps by loads (about 4C) and meant I could bin the trumpet thingy from the engine bay and the resonator from the inner wing.
09 July 2007, 10:49 PM
#24
I used to run a duct from the front of the car too just like Dynamix, worked awesome. Only swapped to a CAI due to maxing out my MAF in the stock airbox.
My thermocouple is currently mounted in the cold end tank of the cooler about 10mm from the TB. However i have a kit to move this to the intake manifold under the TB
My thermocouple is currently mounted in the cold end tank of the cooler about 10mm from the TB. However i have a kit to move this to the intake manifold under the TB
09 July 2007, 10:56 PM
#25
The STi TMIC works pretty good - a lot better than classic TMIC's and WRX TMIC but I am sure they have a limit with what they can cope with. I havent found it yet, but am trying
On track the TMIC works fine, I sometimes use the water spray too at the start of straights to assist but really have no facts to support whether it works - have you logged the IC spray results on WOT runs as I havent the ability to log alongside to give true results - would be very interested to see this.
09 July 2007, 11:09 PM
#26
Butty : You might be OK blocking these two pipes, too and from the throttle body, I don't know but rather than interrupt the designed flow I suggest you get a joiner and just couple the two together. Lots of people have done this with no ill effect.
I have never come across it on Scoobies but on motorbikes and aeroplanes with carburettors and I guess cars with carburettors, it is quite possible to get iceing with the right humidity even at plus 20 C. It is not related to OAT (outside air temperature) but the pressure drop in the carburettor which then causes carburettor iceing. As our cars are fuel injected we don't have carburettors and pressure drop problems of that nature.
There is another mod you can do, certainly on Classics and that is to remove the water pipes to the idle control valve system (ICVS).
Insulating the header tank from the manifold and insulating or rerouting the water pipes also can help.
I have never come across it on Scoobies but on motorbikes and aeroplanes with carburettors and I guess cars with carburettors, it is quite possible to get iceing with the right humidity even at plus 20 C. It is not related to OAT (outside air temperature) but the pressure drop in the carburettor which then causes carburettor iceing. As our cars are fuel injected we don't have carburettors and pressure drop problems of that nature.
There is another mod you can do, certainly on Classics and that is to remove the water pipes to the idle control valve system (ICVS).
Insulating the header tank from the manifold and insulating or rerouting the water pipes also can help.
02 August 2007, 04:54 PM
#30
Removal of the throttle coolant feed helps reduce the charge temps too, particularly in closed throttle situations such as between gear changes or braking into corners where the 90 Degree coolant would normally have been boiling the air sat there. This has improved responsiveness in my view.