my classic uk turbo is playing up!
18 October 2005, 05:33 PM
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my classic uk turbo is playing up!
Hi All
My car is being a bit weird at the moment,Only had it 2 weeks and about 6 times it wouldnt start,for example picked missus up from kwik save turned car off,loaded shopping in and then wouldnt start,it turns over but will not start.
So rang garage where i had it from and they said it might be the imobiliser needs resetting,so lock the car with remote and wait few minutes but today got home and 40 minutes later went out to the car to fetch daughter from school and same again just wouldnt start,from what sounds like the fuel tank there is a noise which sounds like its bubbling or sucking air sort of noises ,then took about 5 minutes and eventually started.
Anybody have any ideas please!
Cheers
Andy
My car is being a bit weird at the moment,Only had it 2 weeks and about 6 times it wouldnt start,for example picked missus up from kwik save turned car off,loaded shopping in and then wouldnt start,it turns over but will not start.
So rang garage where i had it from and they said it might be the imobiliser needs resetting,so lock the car with remote and wait few minutes but today got home and 40 minutes later went out to the car to fetch daughter from school and same again just wouldnt start,from what sounds like the fuel tank there is a noise which sounds like its bubbling or sucking air sort of noises ,then took about 5 minutes and eventually started.
Anybody have any ideas please!
Cheers
Andy
18 October 2005, 06:14 PM
#2
First thing to check when it is happening is to turn off the ignition for about 10seconds, reset the immobilser etc. Then turn on the ignition....and Listen.
You'll hear a few clicks...but more importantly listen for the hum of the fuel pump for about 2-3seconds, then it will stop. If you hear it, then you fuel pump and associated electrics are ok.
The other usual problem is the crank position sensor...when these are dodgy, the tendancy is for starting to be more difficult with a warm engine than cold.
You'll hear a few clicks...but more importantly listen for the hum of the fuel pump for about 2-3seconds, then it will stop. If you hear it, then you fuel pump and associated electrics are ok.
The other usual problem is the crank position sensor...when these are dodgy, the tendancy is for starting to be more difficult with a warm engine than cold.
18 October 2005, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
First thing to check when it is happening is to turn off the ignition for about 10seconds, reset the immobilser etc. Then turn on the ignition....and Listen.
You'll hear a few clicks...but more importantly listen for the hum of the fuel pump for about 2-3seconds, then it will stop. If you hear it, then you fuel pump and associated electrics are ok.
The other usual problem is the crank position sensor...when these are dodgy, the tendancy is for starting to be more difficult with a warm engine than cold.
You'll hear a few clicks...but more importantly listen for the hum of the fuel pump for about 2-3seconds, then it will stop. If you hear it, then you fuel pump and associated electrics are ok.
The other usual problem is the crank position sensor...when these are dodgy, the tendancy is for starting to be more difficult with a warm engine than cold.
I will keep a look out for that!
18 October 2005, 10:58 PM
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Or could even be the water temperature sensor. Had these go as well & they can make the car a bitch to start. Can go either way with these...the car can be cold but the WTS thinks it's getting too hot & the fans come on. Also not enough fuel getting in to aid with the cold start. Or when the engine is hot the WTS thinks it's cold & the RPM tends to rise like it's cold starting. If you then switch it off it's prone to flooding coz it's throwing too much fuel in. Will then usually start if left for 10 mins after trying to turn it over.
MAFFA
MAFFA
19 October 2005, 10:26 AM
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Did it again last night!
Let imobiliser set again and then tried it but nothing
so kept it turning over for about 10 seconds and then finally started
Andy
Let imobiliser set again and then tried it but nothing
so kept it turning over for about 10 seconds and then finally started
Andy
19 October 2005, 12:01 PM
#7
Classics are prone to this, and it might be nowt: so long as you hear the fuel pump prime, you should be OK, BUT, it's IMPERATIVE that you NOT touch the throttle at all, either before, or during starting, or it'll flood. It's especially likely to do this if started after it's been driven parked up a short time, then re-started. Dunno why, mine was the same. It has a LINK ecu now, and seems better..........
If it does flood, keep cranking it over, while slowly depressing the throttle to the floor, and it'll fire.
Alcazar
If it does flood, keep cranking it over, while slowly depressing the throttle to the floor, and it'll fire.
Alcazar
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19 October 2005, 12:49 PM
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It's almost certainly the crank position sensor. I had the same problem on mine - would start fine from cold, but drive it, then leave it for a bit (shopping/fill up with petrol) and it would crank but wouldn't fire. If you want to check you could blast it with some freezer spray (used for electronics or freezing pipes for plumbing) and see if it starts. The sensor is in the centre of the engine, just under the alternator.
As Ali-B says it's a common problem on classics - when I went to buy the new one the guy behind the counter described the symptoms I had without me saying a word.
Matthew
As Ali-B says it's a common problem on classics - when I went to buy the new one the guy behind the counter described the symptoms I had without me saying a word.
Matthew
20 October 2005, 12:41 PM
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It's easy to change. From what I remember, loosen the alternator and take off the belt and move it up a bit to get some clearance. The crank sensor is the brown thing with 2 wires to it directly underneath. Unplug the connector and undo the bolt that holds it in, then just pull it out.
Matthew
Matthew
20 October 2005, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Matthew
It's easy to change. From what I remember, loosen the alternator and take off the belt and move it up a bit to get some clearance. The crank sensor is the brown thing with 2 wires to it directly underneath. Unplug the connector and undo the bolt that holds it in, then just pull it out.
Matthew
Matthew
If i have no joy with garage i shall a go myself
Andy
27 October 2005, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by albert sponge
mine is doing the same short journeys,its had a new fuel pump,i hav cleaned the sensors but no joy,where can i get cam and crank sensors????thanks
27 October 2005, 07:15 PM
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i got a classic but it not happened to mine, i had same problem though with my golf vr6 and the only way it would sort itself out was if i disconeccted the battery, and thus resetting the ecu i guess, never found out why it did this either???????????
14 November 2005, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by scoobysmiff
i got a classic but it not happened to mine, i had same problem though with my golf vr6 and the only way it would sort itself out was if i disconeccted the battery, and thus resetting the ecu i guess, never found out why it did this either???????????
Nipped out in the morning then got in the car at 11am to go and wouldnt start again so kept tryin and tryin but nothing,went in house came out 10 mins later and started so went garage and left it with them an hour or so and it didnt do it once so they couldnt fix the problem
They say everything is showing up ok on computer or something
Anyway got it home and the other day i nipped out and got back home ready for school about 20 mins later,got in car and same again wouldnt start,so this made me late for my daughter.
Rang garage and i have got to leave the car with them until they sort it out,so just waiting to get a lift back organised from the garage which is 40 miles away
Nipped my mate the bike shop today to pick up his new bike,we were there about an hour,got in the car and same again
left it about 10 mins and it finally started
5 mins into the journey home and the check engine light came on
so rang the garage and they said they might be able to sort the problem out now
fingers crossed they find it.
andy
14 November 2005, 10:26 PM
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If I stall my car it takes at least 30 seconds of cranking for it to restart, then it fires up with a huge cloud of black smoke behind it!!
I expect its just flooding in my case, not sure on yours
I expect its just flooding in my case, not sure on yours
16 November 2005, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by andypugh2000
If I stall my car it takes at least 30 seconds of cranking for it to restart, then it fires up with a huge cloud of black smoke behind it!!
I expect its just flooding in my case, not sure on yours
I expect its just flooding in my case, not sure on yours
16 November 2005, 06:54 PM
#19
Some background info:
A weak crank sensor usually manifests itself at slow engine speeds (i.e cranking). You see, the slower the engine turns, the weaker the signal. And it is this sensor that tells the ECU the engine is actually turning. If the signal is too weak for the ECU to detect, it will not inject any fuel or fire the spark plugs. It won't always log a fault code either, as the ECU relys on the camshaft sensor signal to collaborate that the crank sensor is faulty - although Classic Subarus seem to have a habit of ignoring the camshaft sensor during cranking (proven by anyone who has discconected the crank sensor after an "**** - ©pslewis
" oil change and logging no faults codes after cranking). This is probably because the impreza, like many cars, opens all injectors simultaneously at engine speeds below idle (simulatneous injection does not need a camshaft/TDC/cylinder identifyer signal), and only uses sequential injector timing once the engine is running (which is what requires a camshaft sensor - to identify which cylinder is which).
When testing the ECU system a diagnostic/fault reader will not always show a fault code. Unless you connect the sensor itself to an ocilloscope (or an AC voltage multimeter will suffice).
Induced AC Voltage of the crank sensor ranges from at least 0.4volts cranking to 5volts at idle and over 50volts+ at 6000rpm. Heat can vary the signal voltage as it varies the resistivity of the copper wire coil used in the sensor (thus creating intermittent scienarios). On a scope, the signal is clearly identified by 3 pulses, then a short pause, followed by a futher 3 (6 pulses per revolution). Cleaning the sensor won't work as it works on induced magnetic fields (unless it is covered in iron filings ).
Symptoms of the ECU not detecting a crankshaft sensor signal is: No fuel pump operation WHILST cranking, no fuel injectors pulsing and no spark at the spark plugs
Sometimes replacing the vehicle battery can cure this problem. But it actually "masks" the problem as the engine turns over faster, thus producing a stronger signal, combined with less voltage drop at the ECU, which will make it more able to detect weak sensor signals. Same goes for battery chargers, jump starting, push starting etc. Conversely, a poor battery, bad starter motor, or corroded/damaged associated wiring/earthing can make the problem more apparent.
As for a Flooded engine, usually this is caused by stalling or after a failed starting attempt. The ECU will try as much as possible to keep the engine running, it may also not instantly detect the engine is not running. Enriching the mixture, adjusting ignition timing, reverting to simultaneous injection and in the end, flooding it. Imprezas are prone to this, especially when stalled. Perhaps a dodgy crank sensor could exasperate the issue as erronous signals could be given, but that is just speculation.
On a standard unmodified ECU car, under all starting conditions no throttle is to be used. If after 5 seconds of cranking, then try depressing the throttle no more than halfway for a futher 5 seconds.
If the engine is flooded, and the above fails, use FULL throttle, this actually cuts off almost all of the fuel, this is why the engine will usually never start on full throttle (it is the same procedure for almost any other EFi equipped car in production, if you don't belive me, read the section for "starting a flooded engine" in your owners manual, often many people question me on this, but it is true). After 5 seconds of cranking release the throttle. Sometime the engine will fire whilst on full throttle, if so, release the throttle immediately. If it fails, repeat the procedure.
A weak crank sensor usually manifests itself at slow engine speeds (i.e cranking). You see, the slower the engine turns, the weaker the signal. And it is this sensor that tells the ECU the engine is actually turning. If the signal is too weak for the ECU to detect, it will not inject any fuel or fire the spark plugs. It won't always log a fault code either, as the ECU relys on the camshaft sensor signal to collaborate that the crank sensor is faulty - although Classic Subarus seem to have a habit of ignoring the camshaft sensor during cranking (proven by anyone who has discconected the crank sensor after an "**** - ©pslewis
" oil change and logging no faults codes after cranking). This is probably because the impreza, like many cars, opens all injectors simultaneously at engine speeds below idle (simulatneous injection does not need a camshaft/TDC/cylinder identifyer signal), and only uses sequential injector timing once the engine is running (which is what requires a camshaft sensor - to identify which cylinder is which).When testing the ECU system a diagnostic/fault reader will not always show a fault code. Unless you connect the sensor itself to an ocilloscope (or an AC voltage multimeter will suffice).
Induced AC Voltage of the crank sensor ranges from at least 0.4volts cranking to 5volts at idle and over 50volts+ at 6000rpm. Heat can vary the signal voltage as it varies the resistivity of the copper wire coil used in the sensor (thus creating intermittent scienarios). On a scope, the signal is clearly identified by 3 pulses, then a short pause, followed by a futher 3 (6 pulses per revolution). Cleaning the sensor won't work as it works on induced magnetic fields (unless it is covered in iron filings
). Symptoms of the ECU not detecting a crankshaft sensor signal is: No fuel pump operation WHILST cranking, no fuel injectors pulsing and no spark at the spark plugs
Sometimes replacing the vehicle battery can cure this problem. But it actually "masks" the problem as the engine turns over faster, thus producing a stronger signal, combined with less voltage drop at the ECU, which will make it more able to detect weak sensor signals. Same goes for battery chargers, jump starting, push starting etc. Conversely, a poor battery, bad starter motor, or corroded/damaged associated wiring/earthing can make the problem more apparent.
As for a Flooded engine, usually this is caused by stalling or after a failed starting attempt. The ECU will try as much as possible to keep the engine running, it may also not instantly detect the engine is not running. Enriching the mixture, adjusting ignition timing, reverting to simultaneous injection and in the end, flooding it. Imprezas are prone to this, especially when stalled. Perhaps a dodgy crank sensor could exasperate the issue as erronous signals could be given, but that is just speculation.
On a standard unmodified ECU car, under all starting conditions no throttle is to be used. If after 5 seconds of cranking, then try depressing the throttle no more than halfway for a futher 5 seconds.
If the engine is flooded, and the above fails, use FULL throttle, this actually cuts off almost all of the fuel, this is why the engine will usually never start on full throttle (it is the same procedure for almost any other EFi equipped car in production, if you don't belive me, read the section for "starting a flooded engine" in your owners manual, often many people question me on this, but it is true). After 5 seconds of cranking release the throttle. Sometime the engine will fire whilst on full throttle, if so, release the throttle immediately. If it fails, repeat the procedure.
17 November 2005, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by andyzxr
Hi All
My car is being a bit weird at the moment,Only had it 2 weeks and about 6 times it wouldnt start,for example picked missus up from kwik save turned car off,loaded shopping in and then wouldnt start,it turns over but will not start.
So rang garage where i had it from and they said it might be the imobiliser needs resetting,so lock the car with remote and wait few minutes but today got home and 40 minutes later went out to the car to fetch daughter from school and same again just wouldnt start,from what sounds like the fuel tank there is a noise which sounds like its bubbling or sucking air sort of noises ,then took about 5 minutes and eventually started.
Anybody have any ideas please!
Cheers
Andy
My car is being a bit weird at the moment,Only had it 2 weeks and about 6 times it wouldnt start,for example picked missus up from kwik save turned car off,loaded shopping in and then wouldnt start,it turns over but will not start.
So rang garage where i had it from and they said it might be the imobiliser needs resetting,so lock the car with remote and wait few minutes but today got home and 40 minutes later went out to the car to fetch daughter from school and same again just wouldnt start,from what sounds like the fuel tank there is a noise which sounds like its bubbling or sucking air sort of noises ,then took about 5 minutes and eventually started.
Anybody have any ideas please!
Cheers
Andy
18 November 2005, 04:41 PM
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cheer Ali-b i appreciate all that
and XTM ive got take the car back to the garage again on monday and i will the them what mathew and Ali-b said so hopefully get it sorted
then i shall let you know
andy
and XTM ive got take the car back to the garage again on monday and i will the them what mathew and Ali-b said so hopefully get it sorted
then i shall let you know
andy
18 November 2005, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by andyzxr
cheer Ali-b i appreciate all that
and XTM ive got take the car back to the garage again on monday and i will the them what mathew and Ali-b said so hopefully get it sorted
then i shall let you know
andy
and XTM ive got take the car back to the garage again on monday and i will the them what mathew and Ali-b said so hopefully get it sorted
then i shall let you know
andy
.I have removed the sensor (can be done without removing alternator or anything else) and given it a wipe yesterday there was traces of iron filings around it and so far the car has not played up ,will let you know.Mark
18 November 2005, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by XTM
Cheers Andy ,i went to Subaru today and they have quoted me £103 for the sensor .I have removed the sensor (can be done without removing alternator or anything else) and given it a wipe yesterday there was traces of iron filings around it and so far the car has not played up ,will let you know.
Mark
.I have removed the sensor (can be done without removing alternator or anything else) and given it a wipe yesterday there was traces of iron filings around it and so far the car has not played up ,will let you know.Mark
what does it look like and what tool did you use
I had 3 months warrenty on the car so ive told them about the sensor but the only downside is i have to take the car to them which is 40 miles away and got find my own way back while i leave it with them and be without a car
but along as it gets sort because its a right pain
Andy
18 November 2005, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by andyzxr
oh right cheers,hope it goes ok for you
what does it look like and what tool did you use
I had 3 months warrenty on the car so ive told them about the sensor but the only downside is i have to take the car to them which is 40 miles away and got find my own way back while i leave it with them and be without a car
but along as it gets sort because its a right pain
Andy
what does it look like and what tool did you use
I had 3 months warrenty on the car so ive told them about the sensor but the only downside is i have to take the car to them which is 40 miles away and got find my own way back while i leave it with them and be without a car
but along as it gets sort because its a right pain
Andy
21 November 2005, 11:13 AM
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Well sorted it out with the garage to take it up today and the will let me use a car while they sort it out.
So started to scrape the windows this morning at 4,15 am and the went to start it and it would turn over but just wouldnt kick in.
Now i didnt use it the day before so it couldn't be because the engine was warm so dont know what it is
Now i cant even get it to the garage to get the problem sorted
Andy
So started to scrape the windows this morning at 4,15 am and the went to start it and it would turn over but just wouldnt kick in.
Now i didnt use it the day before so it couldn't be because the engine was warm so dont know what it is
Now i cant even get it to the garage to get the problem sorted
Andy
28 November 2005, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by andyzxr
Well sorted it out with the garage to take it up today and the will let me use a car while they sort it out.
So started to scrape the windows this morning at 4,15 am and the went to start it and it would turn over but just wouldnt kick in.
Now i didnt use it the day before so it couldn't be because the engine was warm so dont know what it is
Now i cant even get it to the garage to get the problem sorted
Andy
So started to scrape the windows this morning at 4,15 am and the went to start it and it would turn over but just wouldnt kick in.
Now i didnt use it the day before so it couldn't be because the engine was warm so dont know what it is
Now i cant even get it to the garage to get the problem sorted
Andy
.Anyone got a good crank position sensor for sale.
28 November 2005, 05:12 PM
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, Exactly the same problem on mine crank position sensor went and i tried a lot of things until i realised what it was (started in the cold sometimes, got worst as time went by, started when warm or hot,rarely but can be bump started.They are not cheap to replace though m8 over £100 from wilsons and as it is a fairley common problem I dont know if it would be worth buying a second hand one? unless the seller could guarantee it.
Originally Posted by XTM
Did you get it sorted Andy,mine is still playing up .Anyone got a good crank position sensor for sale.
.Anyone got a good crank position sensor for sale.
28 November 2005, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dannno
, Exactly the same problem on mine crank position sensor went and i tried a lot of things until i realised what it was (started in the cold sometimes, got worst as time went by, started when warm or hot,rarely but can be bump started.They are not cheap to replace though m8 over £100 from wilsons and as it is a fairley common problem I dont know if it would be worth buying a second hand one? unless the seller could guarantee it.
12 February 2006, 11:03 PM
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If any one is interested i have found the problem i had 
,after weeks with the ecu out in the passenger footwell and an oscilloscope i found the cam position sensor to be faulty when warm.Hope this helps someone in the same predicament.
,after weeks with the ecu out in the passenger footwell and an oscilloscope i found the cam position sensor to be faulty when warm.Hope this helps someone in the same predicament.
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