Advice on Modifications!!
#1
Advice on Modifications!!
Guys/Gals,
I've just bought an HKS Induction Kit and an HKS Dump Valve and was wondering the effect that these twi things will have on my car. I have a UK300 with PPP and was wondering if the Prodrive ECU will be able to compensate for the extra air flow etc. without a remap???
Cheers for any help at all
Colin
I've just bought an HKS Induction Kit and an HKS Dump Valve and was wondering the effect that these twi things will have on my car. I have a UK300 with PPP and was wondering if the Prodrive ECU will be able to compensate for the extra air flow etc. without a remap???
Cheers for any help at all
Colin
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Colin
There's no definate answer to your question.
It will be noisier (a lot noisier!!) but it may also disrupt airflow past the sensor. This will make it run leaner than it's designed to do which may give a tiny power increase, for a short period of time.....
Mike
There's no definate answer to your question.
It will be noisier (a lot noisier!!) but it may also disrupt airflow past the sensor. This will make it run leaner than it's designed to do which may give a tiny power increase, for a short period of time.....
Mike
#4
Originally Posted by MikeWood
Colin
There's no definate answer to your question.
It will be noisier (a lot noisier!!) but it may also disrupt airflow past the sensor. This will make it run leaner than it's designed to do which may give a tiny power increase, for a short period of time.....
Mike
There's no definate answer to your question.
It will be noisier (a lot noisier!!) but it may also disrupt airflow past the sensor. This will make it run leaner than it's designed to do which may give a tiny power increase, for a short period of time.....
Mike
I presume running leaner isn't a problem for the engine??? Just means more complete combustion.....so actually I'm being more friendly to the Environment!!! ;¬)
#5
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Too weak a mixture = heat = nipped piston in the bore.
If you fit the kit you also have to get the AFR checked, preferably on a wide band lambda, PDQ while driving on the open road. If it is OK, fine. If not you need to do something to rectify it.
A bit of hassle I know but prefferable to a major engine problem.
If you fit the kit you also have to get the AFR checked, preferably on a wide band lambda, PDQ while driving on the open road. If it is OK, fine. If not you need to do something to rectify it.
A bit of hassle I know but prefferable to a major engine problem.
#6
Well.......I have a PSI3 SECS unit which displays the AFR readings..........I'm guessing that a comparison with before and after fitment figures and ensuring they are about the same wil mean that things are OK???
Cheers again guys,
Colin
Cheers again guys,
Colin
#7
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Hope you dont take this the wrong way but it seems what ever answer or advice you get your going to fit them anyway.
From what I've read on here over the past 12 months that I've been posting & learning, is that basically too lean a mixture will make things too hot and eventually if not fixed in time i.e. remap then its possible your engine could fail, which aint going to be cheap. I dont know the ins & outs of the technical reasons for this, so you may want to wait for the more clued up people to answer.
Either way, enjoy the car
Phil
From what I've read on here over the past 12 months that I've been posting & learning, is that basically too lean a mixture will make things too hot and eventually if not fixed in time i.e. remap then its possible your engine could fail, which aint going to be cheap. I dont know the ins & outs of the technical reasons for this, so you may want to wait for the more clued up people to answer.
Either way, enjoy the car
Phil
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think allot of people say the filter is a big no unless you have a remap and the dump valve is good for show off value ( will make the car run a bit rich on release, but don't think its a major porblem )
Think the problem with the hks filter is it can kill the maf sensor, with the added vibration
get a knocklink, if there is a major problem this will show it
there are people runnng the above mods with no problem
Think the problem with the hks filter is it can kill the maf sensor, with the added vibration
get a knocklink, if there is a major problem this will show it
there are people runnng the above mods with no problem
#9
Ok......so what I can gather is that when I fit them.......as long as the AFR readings my PSI3 unit shows are the same as before fitment......then we aint got a problem.
However, to be extra specially cautious a knocklink would be an added benefit to ensure that nothing major was happening to the engine. Pretty sure my PSI3 will show me knock as well, but then I'm hoping the cooler intake air that the Filter will now be providing will help to compensate against knock occurring.
Many thanks to all for the info.....as pointed out it looks like I'll be fitting it tonight, give it a run and keep an eye on things. Any iffy points and the Induction Kit will be off, so there may be one for sale sooner than you think!! ;¬)
Cheers all,
Colin
However, to be extra specially cautious a knocklink would be an added benefit to ensure that nothing major was happening to the engine. Pretty sure my PSI3 will show me knock as well, but then I'm hoping the cooler intake air that the Filter will now be providing will help to compensate against knock occurring.
Many thanks to all for the info.....as pointed out it looks like I'll be fitting it tonight, give it a run and keep an eye on things. Any iffy points and the Induction Kit will be off, so there may be one for sale sooner than you think!! ;¬)
Cheers all,
Colin
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Originally Posted by colinlayton
Ok......so what I can gather is that when I fit them.......as long as the AFR readings my PSI3 unit shows are the same as before fitment......then we aint got a problem.
However, to be extra specially cautious a knocklink would be an added benefit to ensure that nothing major was happening to the engine.
Pretty sure my PSI3 will show me knock as well,
but then I'm hoping the cooler intake air that the Filter will now be providing will help to compensate against knock occurring.
If you're just fitting an induction kit that takes air from the engine bay, the intake will almost certainly be warmer than it would be via the standard induction, which takes cold air directly from the inrush through the front grille.
Any iffy points and the Induction Kit will be off, so there may be one for sale sooner than you think!! ;¬)
#11
Well, I thought it would be cooler, because it is heat shielded and **SHOULD** therefore not be too affected by the under bonnet heat.....although your point is extremely valid and also probably 100% right.
Gotchya on the Knock correction being displayed by PSI3 but surely if correction will only be occuring if there is knock?!?!?!? So a pretty good indication I'd say!! To combat this I use Optimax or Ultimate with a OB, so fingers crossed eh!!
If I decide to sell then I'm SURE someone would want a lovely Blitz Sonic Power IK!!! It looks luvverly!! ;¬)
Cheers again,
Col
Gotchya on the Knock correction being displayed by PSI3 but surely if correction will only be occuring if there is knock?!?!?!? So a pretty good indication I'd say!! To combat this I use Optimax or Ultimate with a OB, so fingers crossed eh!!
If I decide to sell then I'm SURE someone would want a lovely Blitz Sonic Power IK!!! It looks luvverly!! ;¬)
Cheers again,
Col
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Originally Posted by colinlayton
Gotchya on the Knock correction being displayed by PSI3 but surely if correction will only be occuring if there is knock?!?!?!? So a pretty good indication I'd say!!
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Minutes Graz? Hell, det can kill an engine in a fraction of a second if it's extreme enough!
Not quite sure what the score is with the Denso ECU's on the new age cars, but it certainly is fair to say that the standard knock correction isn't much cop at high engine speeds on the older cars - as you say, in the areas you tend to need it most.
Whether the new age cars catch it or not, what is needed, as you say, is a real-time indication that the car is detting. If you see evidence of knock correction being put in on the SECS, it's too late, as by then, the damage may already have been done...
Not quite sure what the score is with the Denso ECU's on the new age cars, but it certainly is fair to say that the standard knock correction isn't much cop at high engine speeds on the older cars - as you say, in the areas you tend to need it most.
Whether the new age cars catch it or not, what is needed, as you say, is a real-time indication that the car is detting. If you see evidence of knock correction being put in on the SECS, it's too late, as by then, the damage may already have been done...
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Colin
The afr reading from your SECs monitor won't give you the information you need as it hasn't got enough scaling to read the figures on full load. If you do notice a difference, chances are it's too late...
Mike
The afr reading from your SECs monitor won't give you the information you need as it hasn't got enough scaling to read the figures on full load. If you do notice a difference, chances are it's too late...
Mike
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Originally Posted by greasemonkey
Minutes Graz? Hell, det can kill an engine in a fraction of a second if it's extreme enough!
#18
Hang on........I was under the impression that the Prodrive ECU (which I have) was better than the standard OEM Denso ECU?? Surely Prodrive would have mapped their ECU to take into consideration chaps like us modding the car??
I'm only slightly pissed as I bought the Induction Kit off a guy on Scoobynet and funnily enough he didn't mention anything about it possibly killing the engine!! :¬/
Fitting a Knocklink will only tell me if there is a problem.....not prevent it I guess......can the Prodrive ECU be remapped?? If not, then which ECU does everyone recommend??
Cheers Guys for being patient!!
Col
I'm only slightly pissed as I bought the Induction Kit off a guy on Scoobynet and funnily enough he didn't mention anything about it possibly killing the engine!! :¬/
Fitting a Knocklink will only tell me if there is a problem.....not prevent it I guess......can the Prodrive ECU be remapped?? If not, then which ECU does everyone recommend??
Cheers Guys for being patient!!
Col
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Hang on........I was under the impression that the Prodrive ECU (which I have) was better than the standard OEM Denso ECU??
Surely Prodrive would have mapped their ECU to take into consideration chaps like us modding the car??
It is not expected to take into consideration "chaps like you making further modifications" to the car, and in any case, you're expecting the impossible if you think that any MAF based ECU can cope successfully with wholesale changes to the induction tract.
I'm only slightly pissed as I bought the Induction Kit off a guy on Scoobynet and funnily enough he didn't mention anything about it possibly killing the engine!! :¬/
Fitting a Knocklink will only tell me if there is a problem.....not prevent it I guess...
...can the Prodrive ECU be remapped??
Sure, you could shell out on getting the MAF scaling redone to sort the mixtures back out, but at best you'd get a 2-3bhp gain and you're still running an increased risk of vibration or contamination induced airflow meter damage buggering your engine in the medium to long term. The gains in no way justify the cost and risks. You'd be far better off fitting a good panel filter and having done with it.
There's no point even thinking about a remap until/unless you're thinking in terms of a TeK3, and if that's what you were thinking of, you'd be better off keeping your PPP ECU intact, and buying a secondhand standard one to have the TeK map installed on.
If not, then which ECU does everyone recommend??
The one you've got.
#20
Greasemonkey.........you're a bloody star!!!
Many thanks for everyone's help. Looks like the Induction Kit will be sold to someone who has the time to monkey with the rest of their car to ensure that the engine doesn't go POP!!
I....on the other hand have learnt that I will be asking the questions BEFORE parting with the hard-earned.......
I've also just realised that I got it COMPLETELY wrong with what I had bought!! It's a Blitz Induction Kit and a Blitz Dump Valve.........jeesh........where's the coffee
Cheers guys/gals,
Col
Many thanks for everyone's help. Looks like the Induction Kit will be sold to someone who has the time to monkey with the rest of their car to ensure that the engine doesn't go POP!!
I....on the other hand have learnt that I will be asking the questions BEFORE parting with the hard-earned.......
I've also just realised that I got it COMPLETELY wrong with what I had bought!! It's a Blitz Induction Kit and a Blitz Dump Valve.........jeesh........where's the coffee
Cheers guys/gals,
Col
Last edited by colinlayton; 05 March 2004 at 10:33 AM.
#21
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Put on a K+N Pannel and stick with the O/E induction set up until you are well into the 300bhp area IMHO.
You could take the rubber off the front of the bonnet on the drivers side to slightly improve the passage of cold air. Leave the blanking louver plates in position.
As you now may realise there is a lot to think about and to be done to reliably alter your induction set-up to cone/mushroom etc. Unfortunately a lot of people talk about it but fewer have a full grasp of the implications and requirements to do it successfully.
You could take the rubber off the front of the bonnet on the drivers side to slightly improve the passage of cold air. Leave the blanking louver plates in position.
As you now may realise there is a lot to think about and to be done to reliably alter your induction set-up to cone/mushroom etc. Unfortunately a lot of people talk about it but fewer have a full grasp of the implications and requirements to do it successfully.
#22
Originally Posted by harvey
As you now may realise there is a lot to think about and to be done to reliably alter your induction set-up to cone/mushroom etc. Unfortunately a lot of people talk about it but fewer have a full grasp of the implications and requirements to do it successfully.
#24
Originally Posted by The_Judge
Quite a difference, that...
Indeed it is.............as all my passengers will confirm!! ;¬)
Looks like I will get the Knock Link and then see how things go. I was planning on removing the Prodrive ECU and getting a MoTec installed at some point so that might have to happen sooner rather than later. Am I right in thinking that the MoTec will bypass the MAF anyway??
Cheers,
Col
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Am I right in thinking that the MoTec will bypass the MAF anyway??
You're insistent on fitting this bloody induction kit, aren't ya...?!
#26
Originally Posted by The_Judge
I believe it works by mapping engine speed to throttle and MAP.
You're insistent on fitting this bloody induction kit, aren't ya...?!
You're insistent on fitting this bloody induction kit, aren't ya...?!
Ahhhhh I see. Well it's just that I believe seeing things through. ;¬)
Besides.........it is luvverly!!! ;¬)
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Colin, fitting a MoTeC is a major waste of money, when, in the standard Subaru ECU, you have a reprogrammable unit that is able to cope with an extensive range of modifications.
You'd get far better value for money from a TeK3 remap of your existing (or another Subaru) ECU than you would from even the cheapest MoTeC, while the Subaru ECU's good cold start and off-boost behaviour make it a better base for a road car.
BTW, if the induction kit's as luvverly as you're making out, surely the best place for it is mounted in a display case on your mantelpiece, or next to the deer's head on your wall. Far better than putting it under the bonnet of your car, where it's not only out of view most of the time, it'll also get dirty...
You'd get far better value for money from a TeK3 remap of your existing (or another Subaru) ECU than you would from even the cheapest MoTeC, while the Subaru ECU's good cold start and off-boost behaviour make it a better base for a road car.
BTW, if the induction kit's as luvverly as you're making out, surely the best place for it is mounted in a display case on your mantelpiece, or next to the deer's head on your wall. Far better than putting it under the bonnet of your car, where it's not only out of view most of the time, it'll also get dirty...
Last edited by greasemonkey; 05 March 2004 at 02:43 PM.
#30
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surely the best place for it is mounted in a display case on your mantelpiece, or next to the deer's head on your wall