Advice on Modifications!!
 

Guys/Gals,

I've just bought an HKS Induction Kit and an HKS Dump Valve and was wondering the effect that these twi things will have on my car. I have a UK300 with PPP and was wondering if the Prodrive ECU will be able to compensate for the extra air flow etc. without a remap???

Cheers for any help at all

Colin

Anyone???

Colin

There's no definate answer to your question.

It will be noisier (a lot noisier!!) but it may also disrupt airflow past the sensor. This will make it run leaner than it's designed to do which may give a tiny power increase, for a short period of time.....

Mike

I presume running leaner isn't a problem for the engine??? Just means more complete combustion.....so actually I'm being more friendly to the Environment!!! ;¬)

Too weak a mixture = heat = nipped piston in the bore.
If you fit the kit you also have to get the AFR checked, preferably on a wide band lambda, PDQ while driving on the open road. If it is OK, fine. If not you need to do something to rectify it.
A bit of hassle I know but prefferable to a major engine problem.

Well.......I have a PSI3 SECS unit which displays the AFR readings..........I'm guessing that a comparison with before and after fitment figures and ensuring they are about the same wil mean that things are OK???

Cheers again guys,
Colin

Hope you dont take this the wrong way:) but it seems what ever answer or advice you get your going to fit them anyway.

From what I've read on here over the past 12 months that I've been posting & learning, is that basically too lean a mixture will make things too hot and eventually if not fixed in time i.e. remap then its possible your engine could fail, which aint going to be cheap. I dont know the ins & outs of the technical reasons for this, so you may want to wait for the more clued up people to answer.

Either way, enjoy the car


Phil

think allot of people say the filter is a big no unless you have a remap and the dump valve is good for show off value ( will make the car run a bit rich on release, but don't think its a major porblem )


Think the problem with the hks filter is it can kill the maf sensor, with the added vibration

get a knocklink, if there is a major problem this will show it

there are people runnng the above mods with no problem

Ok......so what I can gather is that when I fit them.......as long as the AFR readings my PSI3 unit shows are the same as before fitment......then we aint got a problem.

However, to be extra specially cautious a knocklink would be an added benefit to ensure that nothing major was happening to the engine. Pretty sure my PSI3 will show me knock as well, but then I'm hoping the cooler intake air that the Filter will now be providing will help to compensate against knock occurring.

Many thanks to all for the info.....as pointed out it looks like I'll be fitting it tonight, give it a run and keep an eye on things. Any iffy points and the Induction Kit will be off, so there may be one for sale sooner than you think!! ;¬)

Cheers all,
Colin

That's over-simplistic, but yes, if your air-fuel ratios on a wide-open throttle remain consistent before/after, that's the most important base covered. Even then you have to watch for the MAF sensor being vibration or contamination damaged.

Definitely.

It doesn't. It shows you whether the ECU is applying knock correction, which is a subtle, but important difference. It's not the same as getting a real-time indication that your engine is pinging, which is what a KnockLink will show you.

Eh? Where did you get the idea that the air would be cooler? The standard induction tract is already extremely good in this respect, and about the only way to improve on it with an aftermarket induction product is to fit a dedicated cold air inlet.

If you're just fitting an induction kit that takes air from the engine bay, the intake will almost certainly be warmer than it would be via the standard induction, which takes cold air directly from the inrush through the front grille.

Doubt anyone would want it! ;)

Well, I thought it would be cooler, because it is heat shielded and **SHOULD** therefore not be too affected by the under bonnet heat.....although your point is extremely valid and also probably 100% right.

Gotchya on the Knock correction being displayed by PSI3 but surely if correction will only be occuring if there is knock?!?!?!? So a pretty good indication I'd say!! To combat this I use Optimax or Ultimate with a OB, so fingers crossed eh!!

If I decide to sell then I'm SURE someone would want a lovely Blitz Sonic Power IK!!! It looks luvverly!! ;¬)

Cheers again,
Col

Not so, I'm fairly sure the ECU ignores the factory fitted knock sensor at high RPM, just when it's needed most. Anyway if the onset of knock is sooner then the ignition gets retarded, hence less power. You should do everything possible to prevent knock, it can destroy an engine in minutes. Hence if you insist on fitting the induction kit a Knocklink is a must. At least then you can back off the throttle immediately if you see any activity on it.

Minutes Graz? Hell, det can kill an engine in a fraction of a second if it's extreme enough! ;)

Not quite sure what the score is with the Denso ECU's on the new age cars, but it certainly is fair to say that the standard knock correction isn't much cop at high engine speeds on the older cars - as you say, in the areas you tend to need it most.

Whether the new age cars catch it or not, what is needed, as you say, is a real-time indication that the car is detting. If you see evidence of knock correction being put in on the SECS, it's too late, as by then, the damage may already have been done...

Had my induction kit taken off when the car was re-mapped two weeks ago ...... The result was that the inlet temp went down by 17 degrees. Panel filters rule !!

Colin

The afr reading from your SECs monitor won't give you the information you need as it hasn't got enough scaling to read the figures on full load. If you do notice a difference, chances are it's too late...

Mike

I can definitely see this induction kit appearing in the for sale section soon ;)

...at around the same time as a post about engine rebuilds appears in Dealer and Third Party most prob... :(

Hang on........I was under the impression that the Prodrive ECU (which I have) was better than the standard OEM Denso ECU?? Surely Prodrive would have mapped their ECU to take into consideration chaps like us modding the car??

I'm only slightly pissed as I bought the Induction Kit off a guy on Scoobynet and funnily enough he didn't mention anything about it possibly killing the engine!! :¬/

Fitting a Knocklink will only tell me if there is a problem.....not prevent it I guess......can the Prodrive ECU be remapped?? If not, then which ECU does everyone recommend??

Cheers Guys for being patient!!

Col

The Prodrive ECU is a Denso unit - with (depending on how it's done) either a remap or a piggyback board to alter the boost target.

Hell no. Where on earth did you get that idea? The PPP ECU is part of a warranty compliant upgrade package. The whole point of the PPP is that it's supplied as a complete product, and the ECU is mapped to suit that specific induction/turbo/engine/exhaust configuration.

It is not expected to take into consideration "chaps like you making further modifications" to the car, and in any case, you're expecting the impossible if you think that any MAF based ECU can cope successfully with wholesale changes to the induction tract.

Yeah, funny that. Why did he tell you he was selling it then? Either way, you have no reason to get ticked off at your car, the Prodrive ECU, or indeed any of us for spreading the news. Expecting any ECU to magically cope with large scale changes to the induction tract of your car is simply unrealistic. You may be able to bung a cone filter on an XR3i without it doing anything untoward, but an Impreza is not an XR3i...

Correct. And to follow up a comment above about the SECS, the only thing the SECS can possibly tell you is that det has occurred, by which time it's too late. The KnockLink tells you when det is occurring.

Of course. However, getting a remap simply so you can fit this cone filter is not a path you want to be following, perfect example of throwing good money after bad.

Sure, you could shell out on getting the MAF scaling redone to sort the mixtures back out, but at best you'd get a 2-3bhp gain and you're still running an increased risk of vibration or contamination induced airflow meter damage buggering your engine in the medium to long term. The gains in no way justify the cost and risks. You'd be far better off fitting a good panel filter and having done with it.

There's no point even thinking about a remap until/unless you're thinking in terms of a TeK3, and if that's what you were thinking of, you'd be better off keeping your PPP ECU intact, and buying a secondhand standard one to have the TeK map installed on.

]
The one you've got.

Greasemonkey.........you're a bloody star!!!

Many thanks for everyone's help. Looks like the Induction Kit will be sold to someone who has the time to monkey with the rest of their car to ensure that the engine doesn't go POP!!

I....on the other hand have learnt that I will be asking the questions BEFORE parting with the hard-earned.......

I've also just realised that I got it COMPLETELY wrong with what I had bought!! It's a Blitz Induction Kit and a Blitz Dump Valve.........jeesh........where's the coffee

Cheers guys/gals,
Col

Put on a K+N Pannel and stick with the O/E induction set up until you are well into the 300bhp area IMHO.
You could take the rubber off the front of the bonnet on the drivers side to slightly improve the passage of cold air. Leave the blanking louver plates in position.

As you now may realise there is a lot to think about and to be done to reliably alter your induction set-up to cone/mushroom etc. Unfortunately a lot of people talk about it but fewer have a full grasp of the implications and requirements to do it successfully.

Definitely looks that way!! I previously had a couple of Mitsi FTOs before getting the Scoob and modding them wasn't too much of a problem. I guess it's the difference between NA and turbo.......

Quite a difference, that... ;)

Indeed it is.............as all my passengers will confirm!! ;¬)

Looks like I will get the Knock Link and then see how things go. I was planning on removing the Prodrive ECU and getting a MoTec installed at some point so that might have to happen sooner rather than later. Am I right in thinking that the MoTec will bypass the MAF anyway??

Cheers,
Col

I believe it works by mapping engine speed to throttle and MAP.

You're insistent on fitting this bloody induction kit, aren't ya...?!

Ahhhhh I see. Well it's just that I believe seeing things through. ;¬)

Besides.........it is luvverly!!! ;¬)

:D

Colin, fitting a MoTeC is a major waste of money, when, in the standard Subaru ECU, you have a reprogrammable unit that is able to cope with an extensive range of modifications.

You'd get far better value for money from a TeK3 remap of your existing (or another Subaru) ECU than you would from even the cheapest MoTeC, while the Subaru ECU's good cold start and off-boost behaviour make it a better base for a road car.

BTW, if the induction kit's as luvverly as you're making out, surely the best place for it is mounted in a display case on your mantelpiece, or next to the deer's head on your wall. Far better than putting it under the bonnet of your car, where it's not only out of view most of the time, it'll also get dirty... ;)

:D Could always get a modified see-through bonnet...

Have to say, this fate nearly befell my STi Carbon Fibre strut brace, when I replaced it for a Cusco alloy one :D Absolutely beautiful looking piece of manufacturing, just not strong enough ;)