Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Hi all,

I've spent most of today trying to rig up an Intercooler Water Spray for my standard MY98 UK Turbo.

After trawling all the motorfactors in the area for a Windsreen washer bottle with a pump without any joy, my brain kicked in this morning and reminded me that why look for a new one, when second hand would be just as good. I went to the car breakers, and removed a nice 2 litre capacity unit
with integral pump [1] and mounting bracket [2], and bought some hose, a tee joint and a pair of washer jets.

So far I've cleaned up the bits, fitted the hose and the washer jets to the front side of the black painted intercooler suround, fixed to the underside of the bonnet.

While waiting for the paint to dry on support bracket, I've been pondering how to wire this contraption up. I could go the easy route and fit an iluminated on/off switch, taking the power supply (with an inline fuse) from an ignition 'live' source. I also though of piggy backing the supply from the headlamp washers, so there are no extra buttons, and a timed delivery,
but don't like the idea of washing the headlamps at the same time as spraying(deionised) water on the intercooler.

So I'm looking to you for ideas, anyone rigged up their own Intercooler Water Spray? I'd quite like to have a timed delivery, or even the temperature sensative set up from the Sti Type R's but haven't a clue where to begin. Your thoughts please!

Cheers,

Tim W

Are you sitting down? I don't want any accidents from causing you to laugh too hard!

[1] The Washer bottle with integral pump came from an Austin Allegro !! This is because it's not moulded around the engine bay, just a simple plastic bottle with a pump.

[2] The universal bracket came from a 1970 / early 80's Mini, it's a galvanised bolted on bracket. In my car this will be fixed to the nearside front suspension Turret, using the two captive nuts that would support the
Air Con gubbins if it were fitted to my car.

SteveL

Haven't done this myself but trawling through the net (at work !!) discovered this site which may or may not help

http://www.iwoc.freeserve.co.uk/iwocmods.html

abetts

Nice one Tim. I ran a Caterham seven with a Body Shop shampoo bottle for the screen wash but I can't compete with Allegro parts!

firefox

Hi there,

I am currently developing a water spray for the Impreza. I have spec'ed everything except fogger nozels. The trick is to produce a fine dense mist for the intercooler.

The system will have a manaul on/off and override switch in the dash. The automatic control will be via a temperature sensor and pressure sensor connected in series (to stop the system spraying in winter when you accelerate hard). The system will be set to run for 3 seconds (adjustable) after you come off boost (plenty of time to make sure it still sprays during gear changes).

If I get enough response I will change the water container to a alloy tank which will be located in the boot. It will also feature a low level indicator wired into the dashbaord.

Anyone interested ?

Cheers,

J.

Mike Tuckwood

I am sure there will be many who are.

What is the anticipated cost , If you pop over and see me in Nottingham I will consider offering myself forward to assist in the R&D of said equipment.

Mike.

RobAnderson

I made some enquiries to GGR about their water-spray system that they specify for their 50BHP ecu and was told that they had discontinued it on the grounds that they had found it to be an inadequate means of reducing charge temperatures sufficiently.

Instead they've started installing the direct water-injection kit (I presume the one made by ERL-that's fitted in the Escort cosworth as standard) because that apparently reduces inlet charge temperatures substantially. Unfortunately they quoted £1000+vat for the rig including fitting(though I don't know how much for a DIY kit).

It would have to be pretty good to justify the cost as PTS sell a complete charge-cooler for £750inc.

If an Intercooler spray kit was available at a reasonable price though, I'd definitely be interested as well.

Full marks to Tim for outstanding powers of Improvisation and for the ability to spot a useful part on such a dark horse as an Austin Allegro. Can you think of something to do with the 'square' steering-wheel though, it surely must have had some use,after all- it certainly wasn't steering.



[This message has been edited by RobAnderson (edited 01-05-99).]

aziz

HI ,

You should try the following address for a water spray kit : brett@mrtrally.com.au

It costs 395$ AUD. and is claimed to be
a DIY kit .

HAPPY MOTORING

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Oops, I forgot to update where I'd got to on this little experiment.

I've had my water spray up and running now for a week I put this together with lots of advice from Peter McAlpine's mails to me - thanks Pete!

I've got an iluminated master switch in the coin draw by the drivers side right knee, and the activation is by a microswitch fixed next to the accelerator peddle.

The spray only kicks in when the peddle is nearly floored, the idea with the water spray is apparently to have it coming in when the car is on full boost. Peter recomended a pressure switch, however I haven't had any joy in finding one here in the UK that was a)cheap, b)sufficiently adjustablefor the boost range of the Turbo.

I too thought of temperature activation, but Peter explained the intercooler gets very hot, very quickly when the turbo is boosting, so its better to pre-empt the temperature rise.

Check out his site for a guide on making one of these kits up, it is very informative
www.ozemail.com.au/~petermca

Initially I was using car washer jets, but this wasn't very clever as they didn't mist. I've replaced them (today) with mister nozzles which usually get used in hanging baskets and alike, these are perfect, but I've got to find a more secure fixing method for them, at the moment they can flap in the breeze.

I haven't noticed any change in performance, and in a 15 minute thrash used half a litre of water! But as temperatures increase as we hit summer (I hope - it is the UK)I'm sure that it will come into it's own.

Mind you my new exhaust back box has made a change, ooh yes...

TTFN

Tim W

PS please excuse the rambling nature of this post, I'm very, very hung over.

firefox

Hi again,

My car was used for the design/development and testing of the PTS (Pace) Charge Cooler system. It took them bloody ages to develop it and to fit (removal of front bumper, removal of Intercooler, wiring, etc). And to be honest I was a bit disappointed with the build quality and the results. As such I sent it back. :-(

I am currently still finalising the design for the system and will monitor the temperatures. adjustable boost sensor are only a couple of quid... :-)

J.

Colin

Tim W,

Re: Pressure Sensor & Switch

I don't know about your electronics skills - but the MAP sensor already fitted to the car is, in my opinion, the best approach. It has a fairly linear output up to 15 psi (0 psi = 2.3V, 15 psi = 3.8V approx - best to measure your own car) - so with the addition of a high impedance comparator on its output you have a neat pressure related solution.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Oh damn,

Colin, you've gone and done it now, all those years of therapy (HND in Mech Eng) all out the window, and GCSE Electronics (C grade) is flooding back. Comparators, now what was it they did...

Seriously though, I've been going down the simple (read cheap) route, which in no way could have my dealer mumbling waranty at me. So fiddling with the engine management sensors does not appeal to me, but its a good point that maybe some other soul can aim at.

Cheers,

Tim W

With misting nozzles still flapping in the breeze!

[This message has been edited by Tim W (edited 04-05-99).]

Dobbo

Lads, my car's in with Power + Eng in Uxbridge right now having an Aquamist Water Injection system fitted (amongst other things). Doesn't come with a dedicated water bottle (don't want mine tapped off the OE windscreen washer bottle) but they've suggested a Ford XR2 or 3 one which they'll supply/fit with a low level indicator in the dash. Kit is £467 fitted and Power + have a good reputation amongst the SIDC Southern lot I gather. Will let you know how everything goes when I pick her up again on Friday.

RobAnderson

Ah, now that sounds more like value for money- compared with the GGR water-injection system.
As I understand the principle- water-injection systems are designed primarily to limit heat in the combustion-chamber as opposed to simply cooling the air-charge (a la intercooler spray),although obviously it cools the charge as well,thus preventing detonation still more effectively and enabling boost to be safely upped if so desired.
Water is sprayed via a nozzle directly into the intercooler or inlet manifold in an atomised form (requiring v.heavy duty,high-pressure pump)and is controlled via seperate ecu according to rpm (as in where in the rev-range detonation is most likely to occur in relation to boost)

Seemingly even better value for money is 'Red Line' Water-Wetter which works by breaking down coolant surface-tension to improve heat-transfer and in so doing reduces engine temperatures by up to 15 degrees C.
This only costs £15 and you just add it to your coolant.

[This message has been edited by RobAnderson (edited 05-05-99).]

Colin

Re: Water-wetter

Not convinced at all about this. The engine temperature is monitored by a temperature sensor, which it turn controls the radiator fan. If you use "water-wetter", the efficiency of the coolant is supposedly better - which simply means the engine management system won't use the radiator fan as much - to still maintain an identical engine temperature. Also engine temperature has little effect on charge temperature (turbo temperature does though). And finally, running the engine cooler than it's designed to run at may cause othe problems, such as poor lubrication etc.

RobAnderson

Colin,
I agree with what you are saying regarding coolant temperature relating to the temp. sensor and thus thermostsat/cooling-fan in terms of maintaining a steady overall coolant temperature and obviously it has no effect on charge-temperature. As you say, it is undesirable for the engine to run at a lower operating temperature to that which it was designed to run.
However, I believe the principle behind the water-wetter is more effective and rapid dissipation of engine heat and the consequent ability to cool 'vulnerable' parts of the engine more rapidly than normal coolant, i.e. more effective heat-transference around the combustion-chambers and thus more 'immediate' cooling properties leading to a theoretically lower likelihood of 'hot-spots' in the combustion-chambers and consequently less likelihood of detonation.
I presume this is where the reduction of '15-degrees C' is believed to be achieved as opposed to the coolant as a whole, and, if it works, it doesn't sound bad value for £15- if it doesn't work, well, at least you haven't lost out too much money-wise!

Colin

RobAnderson,

Yes good point - the "rate" of cooling hotspots could well be better. However I remain sceptical about additives in general.

RobAnderson

Norrie,
Now there's an interesting thought, it would be like an aqua-injection-turbo-something-or-other.
Water-injection doesn't alone increase BHP, it just allows you to run higher boost and gain more power thus.
This is, as dmel says on the chemical principle that the oxygen in the water remains simply as H2O which, as an inherently stable molecular structure,simply vapourises and exits the combustion chamber in the form of steam rather than the oxygen at any time becoming a separate entity and therefore, as you suggest, aiding the combustion process.

Now Nitrous Oxide on the other hand.....

[This message has been edited by RobAnderson (edited 06-05-99).]

Norrie

We've gone off the thread here a bit but RE. Water injection...

I'm not too sure, but doesn't the water injection also release more power due to the extra oxygen supplied by the water itself? Can't remeber if I read this ages ago or maybe I just dreamt it. Anyone know better?

dmel

If water were to provide oxygen it means that you have done electrolysis which also implies that you also have hydrogen present according to 2*H20 <-> O2 + 2*H2
Heating water and producing steam is not a chemical reaction by any means. It is just a change of phase. The water molecule remains a water molecule (H-O-H or H20 if you prefer) nomatter how much you increase pressure or temperature.

Dobbo

I'd considered nitrous in one of my 'Mr Burns ether moments' (come on admit it, you watch the Simpsons too!). However I regularly read the lads' car mags and have seen cars being set up by supposedly 'reputable/experienced' dealers which have promptly sent a piston launching out of the bonnet on first start after the conversion. Picking my water-injected, re-mapped, nutter special up from Power + tomorrow p.m. Other posters are right, the system inserts a fine water spray into the intercooler pipework and enables high, safe, boost to be run (I hope). Power + reckon a 16psi set up is fine. Blah, blah, blah

RobAnderson

Oh dear, this is going way off thread topics but what the hell you've got me started now.(From Allegro water bottles to Nitrous Oxide in one thread!)

Nitrous is possibly a more straight-forward 'forced-induction' method than turbocharging if it's done right. You don't have to be concerned about thermal loading (i.e. messing about with intercoolers,watersprays,etc) as Nitrous Oxide is very cold. All it comes down to is making sure engine internals are up to the strain- just like a turbo-, being a bit circumspect about the rate at which you release the gas into the inlet manifold and being ever so careful to adjust the fueling accordingly-just like a turbo. It's usually the failure to properly address these two factors that lead to the airborne-piston/thrown-rod/bent-crank, etc-destructive scenarios so often associated with Nitrous.It's much maligned but if done properly can produce stunning, non-ephemeral, results- CCC project car 1800 8v Golf GTI,originally with 115BHP ended up producing
300BHP via Nitrous and is still in one piece!

You can actually get Nitrous Oxide Turbo Assistance kits that are designed to complement larger turbochargers by releasing gas until turbo-boost has built up sufficiently to take over, thus eliminating 'lag'. I don't think there's a kit for the Impreza available but it certainly sounds fun
Anyway I must apologise for taking this thread way-off course.By the way, the 'Aquamist' water-injection is the same ERL product mentioned earlier- as fitted to Escort Cosworth. There, thats nearly got back to the subject in hand.

WESTFIELD

If the goal of the exercise is to reduce inlet charge temperature then why not just fit an uprated intercooler ? Also claimed to flow better.

RobAnderson

WESTFIELD,
The point is , no matter how much you uprate an intercooler, you are still dependant on a through-air-flow in order to provide a cool charge and circumstances, particularly with the Impreza's standard Intercooler positioning, often mean that this is not always possible. (e.g., tests at the MIRA proving ground showed points around the test-track at which the airflow into the Impreza's intercooler was virtually nil).Also if the ambient external temperature happens to be high the cooling provided by the intercooler will be less effective and the charge will be less dense.
This is why a chargecooler,(or at least-in the Impreza's case- a front mounted intercooler where air-flow is superior-like the WRC cars or Evo's) usually provides a superior means of cooling the air because it uses its own supply of water to cool the air and is not especially dependant on the 'Ram-air' effect.
Similarly waterspray(in conjunction with the intercooler) and water-injection provide a form of charge cooling (and combustion-chamber cooling in water injection's case) that is not reliant on external air-flow, or at least compliments it.

[This message has been edited by RobAnderson (edited 09-05-99).]

[This message has been edited by RobAnderson (edited 09-05-99).]

RobAnderson

Just made some more enquiries about the ERL 'aquamist' water-injection kit and found out that TDI sell a complete kit for the Impreza,(I presume pre-mapped), for £310+vat.
DIY fitting is straightforward with the spray-nozzle fitting in just front of the intercooler. Think I'll go for that.
Still interested in the DIY intercooler water-spray idea though.You can't have too much charge-cooling.
Only problem is,at this rate, I'm going to need one hell of a water-tank for all this lot.