fastfrank

Hi people,
Just been watching the QVC shopping channel with my anorak on. They were advertising a product called 'Pilot Green'. The product consists of two magnets which fit over your fuel line pipe to provide some alleged benefits. The magnets are responsible for altering the fuel in such a way that it combusts more efficiently to give as much as a 10% power increase along with the usual fuel economy saving.

The chap on the tele showed some figures (before/after) of a Nissan Skyline GTR fitted with the device and it manage to develop over 10% more power!!

Anyone heard of or fitted a similiar device?

Here's and example of one made by someone else (sorry, I don't know how to make it a hyperlink):
http://www.ethosplan.com/empfuel.asp

comments appreciated.

DPJef

If it was that easy every manufacturer would use it.
Just another look-what-i-just-invented-in-the-backyard thingie.
I do think Top Fuel in Japan also sell them.

scooby-si

clicky

greasemonkey

The P1 actually has a device of this sort fitted. Can't remember whether it's in the fuel line or in the tank.

Either way though, if Prodrive are using them on a prodution basis, it's probably a bit more than just snake oil!

[Edited by greasemonkey - 8/17/2003 1:48:04 AM]

Paul_M

I think this part (taken from that website) says it all :

greasemonkey

The science behind the ionisation of the fuel flow is correct Paul - as mentioned, there's a magnetic clamp fitted to the P1 as standard.

Whether this particular device is a good 'un is another question, but fact remains that Prodrive wouldn't have specified one if they didn't think it made a difference.

Nezz10

I have a unit that fits in the fuel line, it contains metal pellets that the fuel flow passes, it increases the octane level apparently. There is one for sale in Scoobyshop for about £130. Will be selling mine soon for £70 if you want it.


Taken from Scoobyshop:

"A one-off installation into the fuel tank that will never require replacing. Significantly improves the combustion process, giving more power and torque and/or better economy. Significantly prevents detonation allowing use of 95 RON fuel without usual loss of performance. Keeps engine and oil cleaner. As fitted as standard to all Special Edition Subaru Impreza Turbo P1 models. Fully Warranted. Price is for Impreza Turbo twin 8-pellet in-tank units. Other size Broquet units are available for other engines."

DPJef

I stand corrected...as Prodrive believes in them!
I think I saw Top Fuel (mainly Honda tuner in Japan) also selling them.

CataIunya

I think we are talking about the broquet fuel catalyst devices here aren't we.....

CataIunya

In which case there are some very lengthy and informative threads on it....Did we ever get an official response from prodrive about this ?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

A total con. Trust me.

Nezz10

So why do the P1's have them?

David Lock

Broquet is not a fuel line magnet.

It is a catalyst put into the fuel system by either placing the catalyst pellets in the tank or the same pellets in a canister and placing this the fuel line.

If it is a con then we have got away with it rather well for many years. Let me explain by way of example. My own involvement with Broquet has been largely as a means of "converting" older petrol engines that were designed to use leaded 97 or 98 RON leaded petrol to the safe and permanent use of 95 RON unleaded. I am talking about run of the mill Fords, Austins etc etc driven in normal motoring conditions. The accepted view is that many of these engines would begin to suffer from valve seat recession after a while if run on unleaded because they do not have valve seats of a hard enough material to withstand the higher combustion temperatures of using unleaded. This is particularly true of the Rover A and B series engines, probably less so withh many Fords. How long they would last on a diet of pure unleaded is impossible to say as it depends on the engine, driving style, speed, load conditions and how much built in protection they have from use of leaded. The consensus view is that most of these "leaded" engines would suffer damage (VSR) in 10,000 - 20,000 miles: I have spoken to quite a few motorists who have "taken a chance" and ruined an engine quite quickly after a switch to unleaded, say on a fast trip through Europe. Lead Reaplacement Petrol was introduced specifically to allow these pre-1989 engines to keep going when leaded was taken off the market.

The majority of these engines would also run poorly on 95 RON and would require the engine timing to be retarded or, in the case of many Volvos, for example, for the compression to be reduced (by installing an extra head gasket).

The reality with regard to Broquet is that for 14 years we have been supplying the product to allow these older engines to run without VSR on unleaded. This has been done on a significant scale with at least 100,000 plus older engines running on unleaded. Many have covered in excess of 100,000 miles running perfectly on unleaded, many have run for a decade on unleaded. Furthermore these engines run sweetly without timing retardation. If Broquet wasn't working to protect these engines then there would have been thousands of damaged engines. Serious VSR damage is pretty obvious as the engines eventually stops. But this damage hasn't happened. We do make the assumption that if we had customers whose engines were damaged than they would tell us.

So either Broquet works or the entire motoring industry is wrong to tell us that older engines designed for leaded cannot run for extended periods on unleaded and the introduction of LRP was totally unnecessary. You can't have it both ways. David (Broquet fan and distributor).

PS. It is the improved combustion characteristics resulting from addition of Broquet that also has considerable benefits for newer unleaded and performance engines.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Get the facts right.
Let us hear about the dealings Broquet have had with trading standards.
Now if you want to open this up David I want a refund on the pair of Broquets I purchased from Well Lane before I knew the full history. The wild claims on the 10th anniversary box are total bollocks. There is NO scientific proof that Broquets work and the only reason I have not handed over all this documentation to T/S is that I thought the thing had died a death.

Pavlo

Magnets have been used on diesel truck fleets for a while now. I'm not sure of any success/failure, but I know they were tried by one haulage company, E Stobbart possibly, and they at least seemed to have a useful cut in the fuel bill.

Supposed to align fuel molecules somehow, but I've not seen any proof that it has a measurable benefit on performance engines.

Some products have a combined magnet and catalyst function, Fuelsaver type in-line cartridges etc.

Paul

DPJef

Then question remains 'why don't major car manufacturers use them then' ?

Erik

I have it for 3 years and:
it is nice toy
you can forget all about lowering fuel consuption
may be but really only may be car is a little bit quicker.
The only reason why it still on car is I cant get any man who wants it from me

So enjoy it if you really want...

David Lock

Harvey,
I have no wish to start yet another long and for the majority, totally boring, thread on the rights and wrongs of Broquet. However I strongly resent your comments that Broquet is a ‘con, and by implication, those that sell the product are 'con merchants because this is not the case.
1) If you are unhappy with the product then your first action should be to take this up with the people who supplied the product to you. Every unit that is sold is supplied with a full warranty and money back if not satisfied promise. This is clearly stated on the packaging and product registration form. You are also invited to discuss with Well Lane your reasons for not being pleased with Broquet and have a sensible discussion about use of Broquet in your particular vehicle. Your own test results, if they exist, would, of course, make a valuable contribution. If you are not happy with the response from Well Lane then you should contact the manufacturers whose contact details are also clearly shown on the package. The manufacturers will also have records of test reports and “before and after” dyno and rolling road test in performance engines that are compiled from worldwide sources. These clearly show the improvements in engine performance resulting from use of Broquet. I had rather assumed you had done this before making such a fuss on this board.
2) I don’t understand your comments about Trading Standards. As far as I am aware we have no outstanding issues with TS. They are aware of Broquet and have asked questions about it as they do of most products in the marketplace. My understand of TS is that their main aim in life is to protect consumers and in this respect I would draw your attention to my comments above about use of Broquet to “convert” older engines to use of unleaded. If Broquet didn’t work as we claim then TS all over the country would have been inundated with complaints about engine damage. By all means check with your local TS whether they have had any complaints from product users in this regard at any time in the last 14 or so years. I asked the same of my own local TS office. Answer no. I think TS come under the DTI umbrella? In fact DTI are very supportive of the Broquet technology and promote it overseas and have invited us to share trading stands with them at various trade exhibitions.
3) For the sake of the record it is worth noting that both Bob Rawle and John Banks, well known contributors to this board, have reported positive results using Broquet.
4) In my post above I gave an explanation of Broquet working in real life motoring to safely (no VSR) convert older engines to unleaded. If you say our claims are rubbish then please have the courtesy to comment on my post above.

DL

Jza

David - didnt your product get in trouble due to the way it was advertised?

Arent you now using the same claims that you got in trouble for b4?

Jza

David Lock

Yes Jza, we have an up and down relationship with the ASA over many years. First of all they were happy with our claims and then they said that one of the test reports we submitted did not have a test regime with the latest EC protocols in place. We said that since those protocols didn't exist at the time of the test then to dismiss the results of a leading laboratory in this manner was scientifically unsound. At one stage we offered to lay on a full product test on Broquet so ASA could see Broquet on test for themselves. They declined on the basis that they could not afford to pay the rail fare for their consultant. I have complained to several government ministers and opposition MPs about ASA's approach and refusal to answer our specific questions. We were advised to complain to the independent ombudsman, which we did, only to be tiold we were too late to make a complaint. I have just about given up. Oddly it is only in the UK where these PC obstacles seem to get in our way as the product is a growing success in more than 20 overseas countries where they judge more by actual results and customer feedback. DL

harvey

iTrader: (48)

David:I stand by my previous posts.
From those that have met you I understand you are a charming, thoroughly decent chap and I am not saying you personally are a con merchant. You seem to believe the Broquet allows old cars to run on 95 RON, so be it.That does not apply to what most Subaru owners want/need.
I have no wish to waste time debating the matter further and anyone interested enough can research what already exists and draw their own conclusions.
You reported positive results by J.B. and Bob Rawle.Are you sure B.R. still endorses this product.
I have just taken both Broquets out my tank. Despite 26,000mls plus they look just the same as when they were inserted although I did not weigh them at the time.
Can I send them direct to Broquet,Rugby Street,Rugby?

David Lock

"David:I stand by my previous posts."

Fine - I didn't expect a miraculous conversion

"From those that have met you I understand you are a charming, thoroughly decent chap and I am not saying you personally are a con merchant."

Thank you for that.

"You seem to believe the Broquet allows old cars to run on 95 RON, so be it."

I know that Broquet allows older cars to run on 95 RON unleaded.

"That does not apply to what most Subaru owners want/need."

I appreciate that but the point I was trying to make that it is the better combustion improvements brought about by use of Broquet (as demonstrated by use in older engines) that is very relevant to what Subaru owners want/need - especially anything that helps reduce detonation. This was why I emphasised the ability of these older cars set up for 98/97 RON fuel being able to use 95 without timing retardation. The same principles apply for both older and newer engines.

"I have no wish to waste time debating the matter further and anyone interested enough can research what already exists and draw their own conclusions."

I think that we would both agree with that.

"You reported positive results by J.B. and Bob Rawle.Are you sure B.R. still endorses this product."

I have no reason to think that Bob has changed his view but I am sure both Bob and John have better things to do than join these endless debates.

"I have just taken both Broquets out my tank. Despite 26,000mls plus they look just the same as when they were inserted although I did not weigh them at the time."

They will still be exactly the same as when they were installed. I don't expect you to believe this but the Broquets that were in your tank will have been making a positive difference and you may even notice this in the running of the engine now that they have been removed.

"Can I send them direct to Broquet,Rugby Street,Rugby?"

It would be better if you returned them to the original supplier but if this is a problem then send them to Broquet International Ltd, 7 Regent Place, RUGBY CV21 2PJ who will honour the money back guarantee. Please include a letter of explanation and the receipt if you still have it.

I know a little about Broquet but sod all when it comes to using quotes properly so please accept my apologies in this regard. David.

[Edited by David Lock - 8/20/2003 6:37:58 PM]

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Thankyou David.

fastfrank

wow, what have i started !! :-)

so is the general concensus that fuel line magnets are a good or bad thing?

Gedi

wish the 10% thing was true. 30bhp for sticking a magnet on your fuel line would be the best mod in history

David Lock

Just to clarify. Broquet is NOT a fuel line magnet. A quite separate technology. I have heard good and bad reports on the magnet devices but have never used one myself. DL

Gedi

yeah, I was refering back to the original topic with the magnet thing.

Imagine haveing a 400bhp skyline (as most are) and adding this magnet. Thats a 40bhp increase.... 8)

....how do they expect us to belive that on the shopping channels

Turbo_Steve

In answer to DPJef, Manufacturers HAVE used Catalysers in the fuel line / tank....both Rover and Volvo have used fuel Catalysts on full production run cars: this was when Unleaded first made it's appearance. So obviously they have a degree of faith in the technology.

If you have doubts about the Science behind Fuel-Cats, you may wish to do some research about their use on Supercharged German WWII fighters: Germany had some of the worst fuel in the world, but found they could run comparable boost on their superchargers after....you guessed it....fitting a fuel Catalyst. Trouble with Catalysts is: they operate "transparently", changing back to their original state, losing no mass, no lasting chemical change and in fact (just like an exhaust catalytic converter in many ways) you can measure the EFFECTS but not the process.

If that makes any sense?

Personally, I consider the Prodrive endorsement to be worthy enough for me. These are essentially STis, and the fuel maps on them are nothing special. The Broquet on them is there to give them an "octane edge" and stop them blowing themselves up.

If Prodrive have faith in it....why don't you?


I too have read of good results with magnets used on diesel fuel lines....but nothing on Petrol. It's possible that the magnets actually help "refine" the utterly crude rubbish that diesel fuel is. It's more likely that bits of metallic residue in the fuel stay at the magnets instead of clogging the filter.

David Lock

Thanks Turbo-Steve.

It was use in aircraft engines that was the start of "Broquet". Merlin engined Hurricanes sent to Russia in August1941 fared badly on low octane, low quality local Russian fuel. It was Russian scientists along with RAF technicians (including a young Henry Broquet) that introduced a catalyst concept in the fuel to improve the running of the Hurricanes. Research reveals that about a year after the first Hurricanes were shipped to Russia imports of British fuel ceased. D

Turbo_Steve

Apologies for my innacuracy, David!