W/b vs stock 02 ?
11 August 2012, 12:05 PM
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W/b vs stock 02 ?
Here At last , been dead busy all week
No doubt I'm gonna get shot at dawn for this post as well
As some of you know Im mad and if all is to be believed I should be sat among a pile of scrap many miles ago , lol
Now this is how I've done my afrs be it good or bad it's done and that's that
First off for all closed loop I used learning view so that's pretty much taken care of that and I think most will agree its a pretty safe bet it should be ok
Next is where most think I'm on very dodgy ground
Now my theory is we know in closed loop alls well , scalings , pulled timing , ect
So then log throttle position , engine load ,front 02 voltage , afrs ,egts , as many logs as you feel you want (more the better )
Next I drove the car with standard boost , gradually increasing boost , changing fuel tables , timing tables , ect , each time listening for knock ( det cans ) and looking for detected knock /pulled timing in the logs
Also taking note of how the cars driving / pulling
Then keep making small changes , logging and so on
Until you get your desired results
Now a few points that I'm very aware of
The accuracy of the front 02 , well I've monitored it from the start and it seems a reasonable indicator to me ( yes under boost it's gonna lose it and it only reads down to 11.3 but let's be honest its part of the hardware Subaru deemed fit to control the car so it's got to be accurate to a certain degree (any less accurate than a poorly positioned w/b ?
Second just because your c/l is good don't mean it all is, but (and this has come from a (pro mapper when I said what I've done)
If your closed loop is good and your fuel table is smooth you will find that you won't be far out (not my words btw)
So taking into account , you can log to death the standard hardware , you have your eyes , ears , you can pretty much be sure your starting out on the right track With your closed loop
One downside is time I've spent days/weeks , logging /driving/changing tables /flashing
Also you need to know 100% the set up your starting with is spot on , because if it's not your not gonna have a good reference point and your gonna end up goin pretty pear shaped
This is the basics to how I work , right or wrong it's how I've done it ( it works for me )
I'm not saying do it this way , it just what I do
5,,,,4,,,,3,,,,2,,,,1
Tony
No doubt I'm gonna get shot at dawn for this post as well
As some of you know Im mad and if all is to be believed I should be sat among a pile of scrap many miles ago , lol
Now this is how I've done my afrs be it good or bad it's done and that's that
First off for all closed loop I used learning view so that's pretty much taken care of that and I think most will agree its a pretty safe bet it should be ok
Next is where most think I'm on very dodgy ground
Now my theory is we know in closed loop alls well , scalings , pulled timing , ect
So then log throttle position , engine load ,front 02 voltage , afrs ,egts , as many logs as you feel you want (more the better )
Next I drove the car with standard boost , gradually increasing boost , changing fuel tables , timing tables , ect , each time listening for knock ( det cans ) and looking for detected knock /pulled timing in the logs
Also taking note of how the cars driving / pulling
Then keep making small changes , logging and so on
Until you get your desired results
Now a few points that I'm very aware of
The accuracy of the front 02 , well I've monitored it from the start and it seems a reasonable indicator to me ( yes under boost it's gonna lose it and it only reads down to 11.3 but let's be honest its part of the hardware Subaru deemed fit to control the car so it's got to be accurate to a certain degree (any less accurate than a poorly positioned w/b ?
Second just because your c/l is good don't mean it all is, but (and this has come from a (pro mapper when I said what I've done)
If your closed loop is good and your fuel table is smooth you will find that you won't be far out (not my words btw)
So taking into account , you can log to death the standard hardware , you have your eyes , ears , you can pretty much be sure your starting out on the right track With your closed loop
One downside is time I've spent days/weeks , logging /driving/changing tables /flashing
Also you need to know 100% the set up your starting with is spot on , because if it's not your not gonna have a good reference point and your gonna end up goin pretty pear shaped
This is the basics to how I work , right or wrong it's how I've done it ( it works for me )
I'm not saying do it this way , it just what I do
5,,,,4,,,,3,,,,2,,,,1
Tony
11 August 2012, 12:11 PM
#2
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The front subaru sensor is only there to control afr's to stoich, once its away from that its severely limited and using the std scaling completely inaccurate so do not rely on that at all except in the closed loop regions.
And trying to measure its "voltage" is meaningless as its not a narrow band but a pseudo wide band. (not a true one)
cheers
bob
And trying to measure its "voltage" is meaningless as its not a narrow band but a pseudo wide band. (not a true one)
cheers
bob
11 August 2012, 12:24 PM
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The front subaru sensor is only there to control afr's to stoich, once its away from that its severely limited and using the std scaling completely inaccurate so do not rely on that at all except in the closed loop regions.
And trying to measure its "voltage" is meaningless as its not a narrow band but a pseudo wide band. (not a true one)
cheers
bob
And trying to measure its "voltage" is meaningless as its not a narrow band but a pseudo wide band. (not a true one)
cheers
bob
Was thinking of relocating post turbo , apparently some have said to have back to back tested with after market w/b and considered it very close
When I've compared my logs to my fuel table it does seem to shadow what I'm looking for , so for now I'm gonna run with it
And also like I said a poorly located after market w/b is gonna be as good as a chocolate fire gaurd
Im gonna be investing in w/b shortly so it's gonna be fun to get some back to back tests done for myself , and see how far out i could be ?
Tony
Last edited by toneh; 11 August 2012 at 12:33 PM.
11 August 2012, 01:15 PM
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When I've compared my logs to my fuel table it does seem to shadow what I'm looking for , so for now I'm gonna run with it
11 August 2012, 02:17 PM
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You're comparing your logs of your pre turbo standard scaled front O2 sensor or a post turbo aftermarket wideband O2 sensor with your fuel table? If the former, I'm not sure how you believe your logs support any notion that you're at your intended or even a safe AFR. This was known 10 years ago when people were tuning the OEM ECUs on the bugeye. If you have rescaled injectors or MAF on the basis of these logs, you're tuning to an illusion. If you show correlation between a true wideband and what you intended for your AFR it doesn't prove the point either, only that on that one occasion there was a correlation. Most people that start using a wideband for the first time have a revelation.
Like I said if you're not solid to start with you're gonna be chasing your tail
The 02 does shadow my fuel table
Here's an example at 5600 /1.01 g/rev
My 02 was reading 11.30 for what's considered a fair while because the sampling rate as you know is quite frequent
My target is 11.54 now admitted not perfect but damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it , plus using your noggin and checking all other perameters and driving I'm pretty sure it's safe
This isn't an isolated case like I said it shadows my table quite well
I can only say what I'm seeing John and the figures /drivability are not leading me to think otherwise
Tony
11 August 2012, 06:37 PM
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Bob: "completely inaccurate so do not rely on that at all except in the closed loop regions"
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
Last edited by john banks; 11 August 2012 at 06:39 PM.
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11 August 2012, 07:44 PM
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Bob: "completely inaccurate so do not rely on that at all except in the closed loop regions"
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
And ive also said I'm not saying this is what you do , I'm just posting what I've done , and don't want to lead anyone , blind or otherwise
I've just said its working for me so far ,not do it this way
Yes it may be luck , it may go bang in another 1000 miles
And I also agree for how much w/b are it will be worth getting one
As its been said and I have said the stock 02 is not considered that accurate
I'm just reporting what information my logs have given
And what I have done right or wrong
And also what puzzles me is I've spoken to a tuner in person about what I've done and he was never dismissive and full of tales of woe
One thing I have noticed since going on forums is how intelligent people seem to grasp basic reading skills
Notably , statements in the first post
This is what I've done right or wrong
I'm not saying do it this way , it's what I've done
I'm very aware of the accuracy of the 02
( but my logs are saying otherwise )
And I'm gonna get a w/b ( second post )
Now since I've been messing I've had it all , it will blow up , well it will have a shorter life span , well you've not optimised performance , well you've not optimised your fuel economy , you've not got the power in the right range , well you've not took it round track , well you've not proven winter/summer
I've just said what I've done no more no less I've not dismissed anything you or bob have said , I've just told you what my log has come
I am sick and tired of having to go over what I've said again and again
Please point out other than I've quoted my log looks ok where I've disagreed ?
Or not heeding advice
I would like to see it John , because it's becoming boring you giving lectures about things that are known and adopting the attitude that I'm not listening all the time
Tony
11 August 2012, 08:03 PM
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Reading comprehension is difficult when your posts are in the style of bad poetry, with incoherent punctuation and a unique brand of logic.
You state an opinion based on partial information including a challenge, someone that has more information tries to helpfully correct you, you take umbrage and argue about what your original point actually was, whilst the key technical point is lost.
You're clearly bored with my lectures, I'm out, you are unteachable and a pointless waste of time to participate in a forum with.
You state an opinion based on partial information including a challenge, someone that has more information tries to helpfully correct you, you take umbrage and argue about what your original point actually was, whilst the key technical point is lost.
You're clearly bored with my lectures, I'm out, you are unteachable and a pointless waste of time to participate in a forum with.
11 August 2012, 08:16 PM
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Toneh, are you under the impression that if you have 11.5 in your fuel table and see 11.3 on the stock o2, you are anywhere near your target? Seriously?
Your 11.3 reading on the stock o2 could be mid 9's/low 10's for all you know. Probably one of the reasons your car hasn't blown up yet!
Your 11.3 reading on the stock o2 could be mid 9's/low 10's for all you know. Probably one of the reasons your car hasn't blown up yet!
11 August 2012, 09:16 PM
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Toneh, are you under the impression that if you have 11.5 in your fuel table and see 11.3 on the stock o2, you are anywhere near your target? Seriously?
Your 11.3 reading on the stock o2 could be mid 9's/low 10's for all you know. Probably one of the reasons your car hasn't blown up yet!
Your 11.3 reading on the stock o2 could be mid 9's/low 10's for all you know. Probably one of the reasons your car hasn't blown up yet!
Have you noticed I've never posted in the now 3/4000 miles I've been mapping my car I've not posted my cars down on power , or smoking or any other problems
Anyone that deviates slightly from the norm or has another view or posts I've done this and it seems ok and I'm happy seems to get nothing but knocked back
constantly
I know it's not the tried and trusted super safe method and I know what I should do , but everyone's got there theory to why it's not right or gonna go wrong
All I know is I've done my car by using dodgy half arsed methods and I'm happy with it
Now johns making out he can't read my posts in order to justify his comments
What a load of bu*****t that one is
And now you're theory of the reason it's not blown is I'm way rich
How about this one
You may have hit lucky tone , and it could be a bit of a fluke combined with going steady with you're mapping but if I were you mate get a w/b just to double check
And my reply would be yeah it wouldn't hurt would it
But no , it's a let's pick it all apart quote stuff he's not said and make us look Fantasic
It's a joke , I've done 3/4000 miles so far trouble free and I'm happy with how the cars performing so please tell me why I need all this bo***cks
I don't
I've done I'm wasting no more time with this ****e
11 August 2012, 10:28 PM
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Im finding this hillarious 
even I got the part where Bob said "dont rely on your O2 sensor except in closed loop regions".
Listen to what's being said rather than trying to "fix" something that you cannot
even I got the part where Bob said "dont rely on your O2 sensor except in closed loop regions".Listen to what's being said rather than trying to "fix" something that you cannot
12 August 2012, 03:50 PM
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Right been messing again today moved 02 post turbo and used my s/d 02 scaling and guess what
It's still following my fuel table
I'm still gonna get a w/b
Even though some folks have tested this set up and found it within 3% of an after market wideband
Comments please
It's still following my fuel table
I'm still gonna get a w/b
Even though some folks have tested this set up and found it within 3% of an after market wideband
Comments please
12 August 2012, 08:46 PM
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Running too rich can also be detrimental to your engine. Inaccuracy increases the further from stoich you go, as has been stated before. It will be interesting to see your results once your wideband is in place.
What is your tuning strategy going to be if you find, say, your real afr is richer than 11:1?
What is your tuning strategy going to be if you find, say, your real afr is richer than 11:1?
12 August 2012, 09:47 PM
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Running too rich can also be detrimental to your engine. Inaccuracy increases the further from stoich you go, as has been stated before. It will be interesting to see your results once your wideband is in place.
What is your tuning strategy going to be if you find, say, your real afr is richer than 11:1?
What is your tuning strategy going to be if you find, say, your real afr is richer than 11:1?
Yes it will be interesting to see the results with the w/b hooked up
As for strategy lol , I've not got one
I think I come across wrong on here
I'll try and clear things up a little
I'm a born meddler , even if I've got a completely perfect car I have to take it to bits or find somthing to do with it , I don't see cars as a means of transport or a pride and joy
I find stripping an engine more fun than driving the car it came from
When I've put what I've done I'm not doing it to say look how good I am or this is the way you do it
I'm basically saying I've done this today ( good or bad )
I know for a fact that there's folk on here that know scoobys inside out and mapping
And I also know things I do and things I'm doing have been tried a thousand times
And I'm not really out to prove folk wrong all the time
I also know the correct method to tune your car
Here's an example of what I'm like , for the time it's took to swap 02 sensors /extend wiring , and mess around
I could have worked the same amount of time at work and it would all but for a few quid
Payed for a w/b
I do listen despite what folks say , but going out buying a w/b plugging it in is boring , there's gonna be no suprises and nothing to learn on the way
Yes call me mad , or I'm wasting my time
Or just plain stupid
But please don't assume I don't know , I do but choose to explore every avenue there is ,,, even if it's a dead end
I know loads on here are reading thinking he's wasting his time and that may well be true
Here's another example , I built a bike , cbr 600f engine , gsxr 1000k2 frame , cbr 600rr swingarm , now if you know about bikes you would appreciate how much work and fabrication that takes , yet I rode it once , then broke it for spares
So call me mad , say tone give it up mate , say you'll see mate
But don't think I'm a know it all daft lad
The fun is all in the doing to me not the final result (but if the final result is good it's an added bonus)
Tony
19 August 2012, 09:36 AM
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any thoughts on this ?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1922848
and this (faq 2)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2339842
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1922848
and this (faq 2)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2339842
Last edited by toneh; 19 August 2012 at 09:50 AM.
19 August 2012, 11:26 AM
#18
Yep, Looks like the stock WB is still only good for 11:1 regardless IMO and pre-turbo suffers from inaccurate readings due to temp/pressure, I've got an LC-1 installed for what is cost £150 all in fitted with gauge to match my defis and logging capabilities in Logworks(not used it yet), It's well worth it to give you a visual display when you are giving it a bit.
19 August 2012, 11:43 AM
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Yep, Looks like the stock WB is still only good for 11:1 regardless IMO and pre-turbo suffers from inaccurate readings due to temp/pressure, I've got an LC-1 installed for what is cost £150 all in fitted with gauge to match my defis and logging capabilities in Logworks(not used it yet), It's well worth it to give you a visual display when you are giving it a bit.
and mounted post turbo
and also as with anything how do you know how accurate it is or for how long it will keep its accuracy ?
Last edited by toneh; 19 August 2012 at 11:49 AM.
19 August 2012, 11:55 AM
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why would you need to go to 7,s
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1684716
yeah they seem good ,hence this is the reason they go down to 7.4
be handy when your giving it a bit
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1684716
yeah they seem good ,hence this is the reason they go down to 7.4
be handy when your giving it a bit
Last edited by toneh; 19 August 2012 at 12:20 PM.
22 August 2012, 08:09 AM
#24
Bob: "completely inaccurate so do not rely on that at all except in the closed loop regions"
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
Tony: "damn close enough to give a good indication that it's not a million miles out
Maybe not close enough for some but I have no problem with it"
Bob's compared hundreds of these pseudo widebands that are incorrectly scaled and in the wrong place and has given his verdict which is in complete opposition to your conclusion. You haven't run a wideband yet, haven't run your car on this tune in all the seasons or on track yet. You'd do well to heed his advice, his words are chosen wisely.
Your engine though, just be cautious about influencing others down this route as it is the blind leading the blind.
Widebands are so cheap and available now, there really is no excuse to tune a car without one given the potential consequences.
Wise words from the doc
22 August 2012, 09:36 AM
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Not yet mate I've got some more little bits and bobs to sort , reverse manifold and fuel rails
I think John knows I'm listening , but I've just got a thick skull lol
Btw Duncan what's your take on the repositioned , rescaled 02
Have you any experience of it or data comparisons
Tony
I think John knows I'm listening , but I've just got a thick skull lol
Btw Duncan what's your take on the repositioned , rescaled 02
Have you any experience of it or data comparisons
Tony
Last edited by toneh; 22 August 2012 at 06:00 PM.
12 January 2013, 06:06 PM
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Sorry to revive this but I now have confirmation
Yes the repositioned rescaled 02 will be ok for reading afrs in open loop
I've logged low 11s and now at Scooby clinic I'm hitting low 11s
So it's not just coincidence I was seeing the correct results in my logs
Yes the repositioned rescaled 02 will be ok for reading afrs in open loop
I've logged low 11s and now at Scooby clinic I'm hitting low 11s
So it's not just coincidence I was seeing the correct results in my logs
13 January 2013, 08:13 AM
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Would you care to explain John why then is my fueling correct and well within acceptable safe levels
Are you saying my afrs at the clinic are now wrong ?
Are you saying my afrs at the clinic are now wrong ?
