bugeyewrx

I'm just starting my trackday career and one area ( one of many ) I'm having trouble with it recovering from oversteer , not the back end drifting but full on let go trying to swap ends sort of oversteer . Out of the four or so times it's happened I've caught it twice and the resultant snap back the other way , the other two I don't think I had much chance anyway . To recover I'm holding the accelerator where it is and getting as much opposite lock on as I can .

I remember reading somewhere , probably on here , that the correct way to do this in a 4wd car it to keep the steering as is and apply power , is this correct ? Also do you apply the power before the opposite lock , after , during , no steering at all ?

The cars a 01 bugeye wrx ( now there's a supprise ) lowered on eibachs and with TSL geometry settings .

Now I understand that the theory is that when you apply power the center diff pushes the power to the wheels with the grip ie the front and the car pulls out of the oversteer , but I understand alot of things in theory that I can't get to work in real life . The downside seems to me to be that if it doesn't work you going off the track only faster than you were before .

Any help greatfully recieved , especially from someone who can actually do this

Cheers ,

Martin .

DaveW

AFAIK in a scoob with a viscous centre diff just steer where you want to go and apply full power. The car should pull itself straight.

I've done it during a driving course in my UK MY99 and you can almost be travelling backwards and still straighten up.

bugeyewrx

Thanks Dave ,

So it does work in real life not just on scoobynet

I'm planning on a bit of driver training , where did you go ?

Martin .

tath

if your car is ploughing all the power to then front then keep your foot down. Not only will this pull you straight, but will weight the back wheels up encouraging them to grip again.

The tricky bit when it comes slapping back at you, is stopping it straight! The suspension will weight up so heavily on one side that as soon as the potential energy in the springs is released (i.e. you begin to catch it), it'll kick the other way. This is where you see most people losing it - they catch the first one, then go the other way! God knows I did it a few times

Just don't go mad with the correcting it and as soon as it is about to come back, start unwinding!

S'just practice really...

bugeyewrx

Thanks Tath

Well I've got a days driver training booked at bruntingthorpe booked , my next trackdays at castle combe which doesn't strike me as a good place to be experimenting with oversteer recovery , although who knows I may have to give it a go

Martin .

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I'd be interested in learning where you went for the training too Dave.

I do recall one tip given to me by an instructor, sounds obvious, but you can see why people wouldn't do it.

Look where you want the car to go; you steer instinctively to where you are looking, so if you look at the hedge, that's where you end up!

NS04

LDA

if the **** has gone so far that its leading a bit, then a light tap on the brakes will make it swap back the other way. so long as you are steering in the right direction.

the reason you end up losing it after you have 'caught' the first slide is because you have wound on too much lock. 4wd doesnt need as much lock to catch as rwd as the front pull you out some what. so if you steer too much on the second slide the fronts just pull you in the wrong direction.

get to a drift practice day (if they will let you play with a 4x4 there) and try it out. after a while you will learn how much lock you need for what angle you are at.

play safe

L.

bugeyewrx

NS04

I've got my training booked through stormy who posts on sidc .

Have a look here

It's on the 12/11/05

Martin .

RRH

Graeme Whitehead, Grade 'A' ARDS Instructor

RRH

http://www.racecarparts.co.uk/cgi-bi...num=1067172815

StickyMicky

never tried looking at the place where i want to be

might do a spot of testing

JTaylor

If you're going to play at Coombe I would suggest when coming out of the esses (the first right left, not Bobbies which is the second and will spit you into ploughed field). The car's really unsettled and theirs plenty of run off (the centrifugal force points toward the infield). You see lots spinning here without incident - so a good practice zone. Also, you carry enough speed to make it real, but not enough to make it overly scary.

I think learning the technical side of things is sensible and driving schools will help, but for me there's no substitute for experience. Most of it is about anticipation and feeling what the cars doing via the seat of your pants. It does happen all rather quickly afterall.

Good luck

J

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I know it seems a strange and completely obvious thing to advise, but I guess when you're sideways it's often the case that you end up looking at what you really don't want to come into contact with in the hope of avoiding it, when its simply better to look at the place you want the car to be and you'll instinctively steer for that rather than the curb or whatever

NS04

DaveW

I went on a days course with Don Palmer at Mira testing ground, course was called 'Wetter the Better'. Not sure if he still uses Mira but it was a really good day and taught me what my car is actually capable of.

It also taught me that if you have to think about it, its too late Making your driving instinctive counts a lot to making you a better driver (imho of course).

bugeyewrx

Cheers J ,

Good to know that castle combe has at least one friendly corner . I've only been to Bedford , loads of easy run off and Knockhill which seemed to have loads of run off until I spun out at duffers dip and cleared the grass and most of the gravel trap backwards . It's only because I regained some sort of ability to think and stood on the brakes about half way through the gravel that I didn't hit the barrier . A few people weren't that lucky .

JTaylor

No problem B.

Heres a picture of where I mean with the arrow showing the direction of force. The weight transfer created by the right-left means, so long as your on boost, you'll be struggling not to get it out of shape if your wanting to provoke power over steer. Alternatively trail brake into esses and lift off on the exit for lift off oversteer. There's all sorts of fun to be had. In and around the exit of esses you'll see copius black lines where people have been up to the same tricks (planned or otherwise).

The guy sat to my right is Dave de Costa. His instruction is free and he's awesome - he shaved two seconds off my times!! He will of course advocate smooth lines with little steering input so don't shout about your sideways shananigans.

The clipping point for the exit out of esses is, as you'd imagine, by the bollards.

J

bugeyewrx

Thanks again J ,

I'm off to Castle Coombe on Monday , I've got a session with an instructor booked , don't know who it is though . I'll report back with the results of my attempts , smooth lines and the sideways stuff .

Martin .

jfrf

went on a airfield course a few months ago.

the instructor showed me to completely let go of the wheel once the car oversteered. the car just seemed to sort itself out rather than me having to

it seemed to work reasonably well.
i dont think he was advocating doing this all of the time. merely it was an interesting demonstration of how the car naturally sorted itself out without driver input

RRH

I have (occassionally) let go of the wheel on airfield days- basically because if you go off and hit the grass the ruts common to airfields can break your wrists very easily.

Letting go of the wheel is very much a last resort.

tath

Best example of that I ever saw was the old M5 commercial with Madonna in it. It was only on t'internet as it was a bit naughty for TV. The guy executes a perfect drift and takes his hands off to clap as it comes back

JTaylor

I do this when the car has gone completely sideways. Basically, it's a very quick way of getting opposite lock on. The key is to make sure you counter this very quickly when it snaps back. I thought this was standard practice.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Isn't it also a technique for getting the opposite lock you've wound on off again in a hurry! :-) Trouble is, you've got to catch the wheel at the right moment!
:-)

NS04

scoobylav

I would NEVER let go of the wheel when oversteering. As said earlier controlling oversteer in a scoob isnt that hard it is the catching it when it comes back, if it snaps back.

tath

you don't have to catch the wheel at the right moment - it centres itself to your direction of travel (not direction you're facing) which should be enough to straighten you with proper throttle control, without flicking you back t'other way.

JTaylor

I personally wasn't talking about completely letting go of the wheel but allowing slip.

Horico

i was in a car with a racing driver demonstrating sliding in all manner of cars but mainly a crappy old hire mondeo - 2 litre no less....the key to saving it was winding off the opposite lock at the right time and the car just went back in the direction it was facing....he was very smooth when doing it too.

He demonstrated too what happened if you kept the lock on and the snap oversteer was so violent it was ridiculous - it's this that puts you in the hedge....there's a video of a guy in an sti on here that was on a recent thread where you can see it happening....if i see it i'll post back on here...

ha.

here it is.....

http://www.sidtech.co.uk/vu/JAPFEST2004_ALL_LAPS.wmv

looks like snap oversteer to me....

abc

Thanks -- that's a very salutary clip. I'm a beginner at these things, but I wonder whether a contributing factor was that the guy in the vid was going so fast that he just didn't have the space to correct the oversteer with the lock that he had on. I mean, if he had wound the lock off earlier, would the car have come back into line?

scoobylav

Most probably yes. However in that situation you dont always think clearly.

tath

search for 'madonna bmw m5' on limewire or something to see some really brilliant driving and a good example of the crazy letting go of the steering wheel

Horico

The guy I was in the car with was getting upto 80-90 mph before even provoking the lift off oversteer so yes, you can correct it at those speeds...

Just takes some serious driver skill and 'feel'.