Type-R diff control + driving courses
04 October 2004, 11:40 PM
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Type-R diff control + driving courses
Hi,
I am interested in knowing 'how' to use the diff control in a Type-R? I've read John Felsteads excellent post but am interested in hearing how you guys use them every day. I'm not interested in wild antics as such, just the best combination of forgivingness, control and traction whilst reducing the chance of being bitten.
On a similar note, can anyone recommend a good driving course where the diff control, and indeed the car, can be safely explored?
thanks,
Matt
I am interested in knowing 'how' to use the diff control in a Type-R? I've read John Felsteads excellent post but am interested in hearing how you guys use them every day. I'm not interested in wild antics as such, just the best combination of forgivingness, control and traction whilst reducing the chance of being bitten.
On a similar note, can anyone recommend a good driving course where the diff control, and indeed the car, can be safely explored?
thanks,
Matt
06 October 2004, 10:22 AM
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Id be interested in that too as I have just bought a Type R and I have also read JF's post on it which made me want to learn more about it as I should be picking it up in a couple of weeks!
J
J
06 October 2004, 01:10 PM
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full open most of the time - everday driving / motorway etc.
2-3 notches forward on the backroads for real grip and power out of the apex.
2-3 notches forward on the backroads for real grip and power out of the apex.
06 October 2004, 05:15 PM
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John Felstead clicky http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143750 
Just leave mine fully open for most of the time, 1st notch in the wet.
Fully locked if you want to launch it in a straight line
Just leave mine fully open for most of the time, 1st notch in the wet.
Fully locked if you want to launch it in a straight line
Last edited by richiewong; 06 October 2004 at 05:41 PM.
06 October 2004, 06:51 PM
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Open for road, first click if puddles on the road. On track, anywhere up to 1st yellow- any more than that makes it understeer like crazy.
The only time I lock fully forward is under heavy track braking in the wet to aid stability.
The only time I lock fully forward is under heavy track braking in the wet to aid stability.
07 October 2004, 08:58 AM
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thanks guys, good to hear how you use it. I am typically keeping it open at the moment but have put it to the first yellow in the (heavy) rain. Any thoughts re: courses? I heard that the '1st Lotus' one is good because its on an old airfield
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08 October 2004, 09:33 AM
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Hi Guys
The DCCD control is a great thing to master.
I tend to use it as follows..
approx one notch forward pretty much all the time..just to leave a bit of bite in the centre diff in-case of emergencies and to promote a bit of stability...
open if I'm in an agressive mood
Approx two notches forward in the wet and maybe a touch further forward if I'm pushing hard in the wet (on track, etc)..
Remember, the lights on the dash are only an indicator, as the control is completely linear (if you move it a mm, it alters the diff setting regardless of whether another dash light comes on) so experiment with it but tweaking it little bits at a time until you like the feel of the car.
Cheers
Simon
The DCCD control is a great thing to master.
I tend to use it as follows..
approx one notch forward pretty much all the time..just to leave a bit of bite in the centre diff in-case of emergencies and to promote a bit of stability...
open if I'm in an agressive mood
Approx two notches forward in the wet and maybe a touch further forward if I'm pushing hard in the wet (on track, etc)..
Remember, the lights on the dash are only an indicator, as the control is completely linear (if you move it a mm, it alters the diff setting regardless of whether another dash light comes on) so experiment with it but tweaking it little bits at a time until you like the feel of the car.
Cheers
Simon
08 October 2004, 09:44 AM
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Has anyone figured out the algorithm used by the '-A' in cars with DCCD-A? Seems like it might be nice to predict how the system will react and under what circumstances. I guess it'll be different for '05 cars with the yaw sensor too.
08 October 2004, 12:23 PM
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I'm starting to use it coming out of bends/roundabouts to help keep oversteer at bay. Also helps under hard braking, so long as your in a straight line.
For courses you may want to have a look at Don Palmer, I think he still instructs you in your own car.
Dave.
For courses you may want to have a look at Don Palmer, I think he still instructs you in your own car.
Dave.
08 October 2004, 12:29 PM
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thanks guys, great info
DaveW - you say you are using it coming out of roundabouts/bends, are you nudging it into, say, the first yellow and then easing back? I would be interested in knowing your technique.
cheers,
Matt
DaveW - you say you are using it coming out of roundabouts/bends, are you nudging it into, say, the first yellow and then easing back? I would be interested in knowing your technique.
cheers,
Matt
08 October 2004, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveW
I'm starting to use it coming out of bends/roundabouts to help keep oversteer at bay. Also helps under hard braking, so long as your in a straight line.
J
08 October 2004, 01:43 PM
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yeh, there is a superb post by John Felstead about using it - you can use it whilst moving and you can lock the diff on tarmac. The noises you hear are, apparently, normal but they do recommend going to fully open when doing slow manouvres etc.
hth,
Matt
hth,
Matt
08 October 2004, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by m3matt
yeh, there is a superb post by John Felstead about using it - you can use it whilst moving and you can lock the diff on tarmac. The noises you hear are, apparently, normal but they do recommend going to fully open when doing slow manouvres etc.
hth,
Matt
hth,
Matt
Yeah, I've read Johns post.. is very informative... just needed it clarifying... Being a bit
LOL
J
Last edited by Jay_bee; 08 October 2004 at 03:22 PM.
08 October 2004, 02:37 PM
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It's good to see that I use mine as everyone else does.
I usually have it set one forward when wet damp as it does feel more stable.
Never tried a launch locked. May have to try it??
I usually have it set one forward when wet damp as it does feel more stable.
Never tried a launch locked. May have to try it??
08 October 2004, 09:54 PM
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expect a lot of noise from the diffs if you launch with it fully locked and also under heavy braking.
likewise if manoevering with it locked. you'll only do that once- sounds like the worlds going to end, and take a years salary with it!
a slight lift of the handbrake will set it to free temporarily so you can manoevre if you must travel with it locked.
likewise if manoevering with it locked. you'll only do that once- sounds like the worlds going to end, and take a years salary with it!
a slight lift of the handbrake will set it to free temporarily so you can manoevre if you must travel with it locked.
13 October 2004, 09:33 AM
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Matt,
Well I'm still learning but, there is a nice small roundabout near me (national speed limit road). Approaching the roundabout to take the third exit (you can take it like a tight right bend), If I have the diff fully open then I can get oversteer exiting in the dry. But now, after turning in and before accelerating out I notch it up to about the first yellow. Makes it feel as though I've got a front lsd fitted as it pulls out of the bend and off down the road.
Hope that makes sense.
Dave.
Well I'm still learning but, there is a nice small roundabout near me (national speed limit road). Approaching the roundabout to take the third exit (you can take it like a tight right bend), If I have the diff fully open then I can get oversteer exiting in the dry. But now, after turning in and before accelerating out I notch it up to about the first yellow. Makes it feel as though I've got a front lsd fitted as it pulls out of the bend and off down the road.
Hope that makes sense.
Dave.
13 October 2004, 10:08 AM
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So, what does it do if you leave it in auto?
I'm just not sure I like the idea of taking a hand off the wheel mid-corner to fiddle with a little control on the floor, especially when that control affects the handling of the car.
I'm just not sure I like the idea of taking a hand off the wheel mid-corner to fiddle with a little control on the floor, especially when that control affects the handling of the car.
13 October 2004, 11:03 AM
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The thumbwheel is on the centre console by the hand brake. Its quite easy once you get used to it to be honest.
The 'auto' setting is a recent innovation, and IIRC is only on the STi7 and later JDM cars plud the WR1 and a couple of others- and is apparently on the 2005 STi.
Earlier cars can run 'active' centre diff, but you would need a Gems / Motec etc ECU to talk to the diff control ECU.
The 'auto' setting is a recent innovation, and IIRC is only on the STi7 and later JDM cars plud the WR1 and a couple of others- and is apparently on the 2005 STi.
Earlier cars can run 'active' centre diff, but you would need a Gems / Motec etc ECU to talk to the diff control ECU.
13 October 2004, 11:04 AM
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Sorry, to answer your question, if you leave the new ones in auto the ECU will decide where it needs the power and where it would be wasted- like a spinning wheel.
13 October 2004, 11:21 AM
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Yes, I know it's a recent thing - it's been on the Japanese cars for a while and is indeed coming to the Euro STI for MY05. Hurrah!
I understand that the theory behind 'auto' is that it'll just work everything out for you, but being an engineer I always find myself wanting to know a bit more about what's actually going on. What are the inputs to the system, and exactly when does it tend to lock up the diff and when does it allow the diff to free up?
In the brochure for the '05 JDM STI there's a little graph which I believe is something to do with it (the new yaw sensor in particular, which definitely is an input). I'm not currently aware that anyone outside of STI themselves has actually figured out the algorithm it uses, though.
I understand that the theory behind 'auto' is that it'll just work everything out for you, but being an engineer I always find myself wanting to know a bit more about what's actually going on. What are the inputs to the system, and exactly when does it tend to lock up the diff and when does it allow the diff to free up?
In the brochure for the '05 JDM STI there's a little graph which I believe is something to do with it (the new yaw sensor in particular, which definitely is an input). I'm not currently aware that anyone outside of STI themselves has actually figured out the algorithm it uses, though.
13 October 2004, 11:34 AM
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Whilst I know how to work it, I don't really know how it works- from reading the above I'm guessing that you know more about the technical aspects than me
13 October 2004, 11:57 AM
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It's my job to know how stuff works
In all seriousness, though, I find that knowing how something works, rather than just knowing what it's supposed to do, makes it much easier to predict how it'll behave under different circumstances, what its capabilities might be, when it's best left to get on with it and when I might do better to take over myself. I'm a little surprised that nobody seems to have done measurements on it yet to find out what it's actually doing.
In all seriousness, though, I find that knowing how something works, rather than just knowing what it's supposed to do, makes it much easier to predict how it'll behave under different circumstances, what its capabilities might be, when it's best left to get on with it and when I might do better to take over myself. I'm a little surprised that nobody seems to have done measurements on it yet to find out what it's actually doing.
13 October 2004, 12:12 PM
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I must admit I tend to like to know how things work- I have no experience of the auto diff but am led to believe it's very impressive.
I have, however, had sooo many scoobys with dccd that I've got quite used to using them now, and they really do transform the handling of the car both on road and track.
They do cause some incredibly scary (read:expensive sounding) noises though..... they clatter and bang under heavy braking, and if you make the mistake of forgetting it's locked and try to manouevre at low speed it feels like the body and chassis are going to part company.....
I have, however, had sooo many scoobys with dccd that I've got quite used to using them now, and they really do transform the handling of the car both on road and track.
They do cause some incredibly scary (read:expensive sounding) noises though..... they clatter and bang under heavy braking, and if you make the mistake of forgetting it's locked and try to manouevre at low speed it feels like the body and chassis are going to part company.....
13 October 2004, 12:27 PM
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Hi Guys
measuring how the diff operates on an advanced active diff system is pretty much impossible.
To give you an idea, the system we are developing has approximately 10,000 values for a single map, which represents around 145 trillion possible values based on all the available inputs.
It's also true that the complexity of the mapping is almost impossible to describe and can only really be fully understood by the person who mapped it. If you have the map infront of you, you can get pretty close if you know what you're doing, but you'll never be able to pick on the specific bits of magic that have been put in there by the genius that mapped it.
The WR1 DCCD-A system is very simple by comparison. It uses very few inputs and is able to be described in the 3D graphical form that many have seen.
I can't wait until we can launch the scoobysport active diff ecu as I think many will be blown away by the difference in the handling.. The challenge of the actual mapping and testing, etc is even more than I imagined, but it's a lot of fun
Cheers
Simon
measuring how the diff operates on an advanced active diff system is pretty much impossible.
To give you an idea, the system we are developing has approximately 10,000 values for a single map, which represents around 145 trillion possible values based on all the available inputs.
It's also true that the complexity of the mapping is almost impossible to describe and can only really be fully understood by the person who mapped it. If you have the map infront of you, you can get pretty close if you know what you're doing, but you'll never be able to pick on the specific bits of magic that have been put in there by the genius that mapped it.
The WR1 DCCD-A system is very simple by comparison. It uses very few inputs and is able to be described in the 3D graphical form that many have seen.
I can't wait until we can launch the scoobysport active diff ecu as I think many will be blown away by the difference in the handling.. The challenge of the actual mapping and testing, etc is even more than I imagined, but it's a lot of fun
Cheers
Simon
