john banks

Apparently the intake temps will go sky high.

Am I best monitoring intake temps or EGTs? I wonder if the latter would be more reflective of in-cylinder temperatures which is what would really concern me.

I can reduce the boost - where abouts in the rev range will I be best tweaking it - less in midrange or top end or both?

If I wanted to be able to keep the boost but run cooler would I be better with either 1. hybrid TD04L with larger compressor wheel (£400 from Switzerland said to be good for 290 bhp+ with spool up like the original - exchange basis) may even run less boost if more efficient - aim to use original ECU or 2. FMIC with turbo untouched?

I reckon I should drop to within 1 PSI of what PPP does (given that I have a downpipe to help efficiency) or go for the hybrid upgrade for more running cooler.

Is the weakness of a MY99/00 UK turbo really the turbo or TMIC? I am suspecting the turbo primarily given the results some get with big turbos and TMIC.

What about uprated TMIC? And can I keep my aircon with a FMIC and find one which does not become the lowest point on the car and does not require bumper cutting?

I don't want to make a monster just keep it a bit cooler than it is now - the performance is ample for my limited driving skill. Intake temps or EGT bits soon to be ordered.

Any suggestions welcome, forgive me I am a bit slow when it comes to oily bits...


[Edited by john banks - 2/17/2002 5:41:21 PM]

T-uk

john,

the 18psi is not the bit that would worry me,it's the Dawes bringing the boost in quicker and harder at low revs and holding far more up top.as you know PPP cars like most Subarus have a short higher peak and then a lower held,your car is peaking and holding the same for most of the mid-range.

john banks

Well, tell me what boost you think I should run at what revs then and I'll program it and try it.....

At present:
2000 10
2500 18
3000 18
3500 18
4000 18
4500 18
5000 17
5500 16
6000 15
6500 13

steve rally

John,

In terms of what will make the engine "det" the AIT is most important so would certainly measure this.

As a guide on the GEMS we back off the advance by 0.2Deg per deg C temp rise above 45C. Your PPP does not have this but has knock control - but this is rather "after the event".

We are using a Pace FMIC on the GP B car (WRC turbo,1.8 Bar,cossie pistons etc etc) which comes with new rad and does not require front panel mods. AIT never goes above 32C.

Steve

T-uk

it's your car run what you like .seriously,your car is running the same boost at 6000rpm as quite a few PPP MY99/00 owners are reporting peaking at.most I have spoken to see a peak of 15psi and held 14 before tailing off drastically at about 4500-5000rpm

T-uk

there you go.Pace do not need front end mods,so get a group buy organised and bin that bloody air con,all it does is eat your power anyway ,if you get too hot open a window,it's better you melting than your pistons .

[Edited by T-uk - 2/17/2002 7:35:33 PM]

john banks

Group buy FMICs imagine the disagreements that would cause Even a Dawes group buy was tricky enough...

I keep my air con

First step then intake temps to be checked. Do you want me to order you one John as per my email?

Bob Rawle

Temps will go high on the track in any case, even at "standard" boost with a TD04. Trouble is that you start each lap with a higher charge temp than last lap then subject the car to the same torture, result even higher temps until it soaks out to a level. I used to find that 5-8 laps was all I could manage round Donno before things got toasted and I had to come in.

steve rally

Thats why we fit a FMIC.

Put water injection on as well and the charge temps will be fine.

john banks

Is the main issue the TD04 or the intercooler then? If I am only changing one of them...? (I really should stop all this and buy an Evo 7)

firefox

If you can manage heat soak correctly, then in theory, an uprated intercooler is a "band-aid" for a poorly specced turbo (within reason).

Of course this is theory... real world is different. Its a compromise... a correctly specced turbo wont require such an effecient intercooler and the temps exiting the turbo will be easier to manage.

But this doesnt happen, and people want turbos that can do everything, no lag, large flow, no surge line, deal with high boost, etc... so they have to make compromises... high temps.. and to deal with these they fit improved intercoolers.

One way to look at it... is that eventually you WILL fit an uprated intercooler... so do that first.. and live with the current "fast" spool up.. and once u have flogged the turbo to death.. then fit a hybrid

J.

mole

JB, we too are running a TD04L with 1.28 bar peak and have the Pace FMIC (with radiator and fans).

No bumper cutting and keep air-con

Sorry dont have any temps for you, havn't got round to that yet, have been too busy sorting out dv problems...all ok now.

Oh, its MY99 UK turbo with PPP.

I can honestly say that it feels much less "heat" now, I used to stop at lights...wait...go and notice massive drop in power,(from engine bay/heat soak to TM), now I dont get that at all.

Was also planning water spray for FMIC at a later date.

Good luck, Moles Dad.

john banks

Pace FMIC £975 + VAT + delivery + fitting.

Hybrid TD04L about £400 + delivery + fitting exchange basis.

I'm tempted to try the hybrid turbo....

Also I've brought the "turbo selection again" thread back to the top....

[Edited by john banks - 2/17/2002 10:44:02 PM]

Bob Rawle

Lol J, thats not what you used to say, agreed a bigger turbo is cooler running charge temp wise but ... it won't help the track, the only way to go is FMIC as most that have done it can confirm whatever and whosever the make and type. A hybrid TDO4 is a waste though, much better options around including the "standard" STi fit items in particular the VF23. Stay clear from the VF22, compressor wheels have a habit of stretching blades and pinging them off, not at full throttle but at part.

WREXY

This could be a dopey question, but I'll ask anyway. Can you run a VF series turbo, say the VF23 and a FMIC on the standard ECU with a boost controller?

Cheers,

Wrexy.

[Edited by WREXY - 2/17/2002 11:27:23 PM]

john banks

Wrexy that was my similar concern...

A well known Australian tuner recommends sticking with the standard ECU IIRC?

Maybe the ignition timing could be more advanced and the fuelling more appropriate for aftermarket leading to better/safer results?

This was another reason for thinking about the hybrid as it is half the price of a VF23 and doesn't need the new ECU. Ric has one is his car and says it is fabulous, and much earlier to spool up. The Americans are getting very good results off a TD04L hybrid. But Adam M and Bob Rawle are suggesting VF over TD04 and obviously when they talk I tend to listen! Puzzled...

Dizzy

John your a bit of a mad diy bloke .. how about this ... re-route your aircon through the TMIC that could really drop your ic temps.

Dont know who told me this, but apparantly a standard manufacturer was toying with the idea.... I'll have to dig around n ask.

[Edited by Dizzy - 2/18/2002 9:06:14 AM]

john banks

Ford IIRC?

You are madder than me

EvoRSX

The only problem with the aircon route is that you'll be taking power from the engine to run the aircon and so you'd have to balance up the power loss from the aircon with the power gain from cooler intake temps......

Anyway, on a more serious note,
What I would suggest is monitoring your intake temps at various points, mainly before and after the turbo and before and after the i/c. That way you can work out what the temp rise is by the turbo and what efficiency the i/c is working at in reducing the temps.

It'll also be a good idea to check where you are in the turbo's efficiency by comparing your setup with the compressor map. You can then work out if the turbo is not performing well and generating too much heat. Ideally you want the turbo efficiency to be about 70% or higher at peak torque but still want above 65% efficiency at peak power. If you are less than about 60% then the turbo will just be generating heat and not airflow and so it'll be a wise move to change to a bigger turbo.

If the turbo is OK then measure the temp drop across the i/c and if the efficiency is under about 80% then it'll be best to go for i/c mods with either a bigger i/c or a waterspray onto the i/c or a FMIC.

Andy

john banks

Thanks Andy -- that seems a logical method of making the decision. I think the turbo is the weak point given the outlet temps some are seeing. I don't think I am below 60% on the compressor map - the best map I have is an estimate and it looked ok - but will look again later - trouble is you need to make a lot of assumptions to read the map which could put things out quite a lot.

EvoRSX

John,
Do you have a R/R map for your car with its current setup?
If so then if you forward it to me, I can put it into a program I've put together for calculating compressor compatability and have a look for you.
Using the R/R graph, you can get 'good' assumptions and so make a better 'guess' as to where the turbo is running.

Andy

john banks

I'll do that this evening thanks. The map I will send is from Star and is running about 1 PSI less across the range than now, but as plotted is similar to what I was thinking of for the track

bwhinnen

John,

I run an FMIC with the standard ECU and TD04 on an Aust Spec MY00 with a boost controller (of sorts, Turbosmart Bleed type valve) set to 16 PSI at the highest load point.

From my experience the car is much cleaner on boost and much more consistant, however there is a throttle problem when in the lower gears (less load) as it does take a part of a second to fill the extra volume of the FMIC and piping. You can feel the difference in the car though, just because the air charge is a constant temp (and lower than with the oem IC). It was money well spent in my books.

A friend of mine has a VF23, FMIC and A'PEXi AVC-R controlling Boost. The car was great on the standard ECU, running 15.5 - 16.0 PSI no real noticeable lack of throttle response as the compressor is just so much more efficient at the lower loads. He has since changed this to a LINK ecu and although I've not driven the car the difference in the way it feels is great. I'm watching the laptop and data logging and could have sworn he was in 3rd gear doing a run when in fact he was in fourth!

Main point on the ECU though, find someone that knows what they are talking about, you've got the LINK experts in the UK, stick with them not only do they know what they are talking about they are really friendly and nice guys!

So what I'd say is go the FMIC and get a VF series turbo Even better if you can get one of the modified ones from BRD Then when money permits look into another ECU and invest some time and money into getting someone to tune it.

Brett

T-uk

john's results and others can be seen at www.scoobymods.co.uk/rr200102/rr03index.html

amber performance are at £810 inc VAT for the Pace front mount/radiator kit.I think the radiator must be narrower so that no front end mods are needed or could I keep my standard rad but still fit the fmic without front end mods?

john banks

Thanks for all the help. I would just get the lot done if I was convinced, but I'm just not convinced it is sensible use of funds and think I would be better getting a new car going down this line? I am actually pretty happy with the performance as it is and the car overall is very well balanced to my preferences, just looking to "consolidate" it by cooling things down a bit so it doesn't let go on the track. I would love to go Link, VF23 from BRD and FMIC, but it would make the car into a monster that I don't really want to be honest. I am thinking of something that will be cheaper but give me what I want but perhaps I am expecting too much and should just go the whole hog or not at all. I'm just not happy to throw £3000 at this car as I won't see any of it back!

Disco

True, but how much extra do you get from enjoying your car?

Muncher

I know what you mean John, I've laid out about £6500 so far on mods for my 95WRX

PE T75 exhaust
Blitz Airfilter
AP 6 pots + 17" rims
Leda suspension (not fitted yet but on order)
Pace FMIC (not fitted yet but on order)

plus I'm looking at a Link ECU upgrade which will wack it up to a total of £7700. Thats quite a bit of cash to get a few more reliable horsepower and handling benefits so I can finally take it on the track and hopefully not blow the engine to pieces.

I'm starting to think that (he says putting on the flame retardant jacket) maybe I should have gone down the Evo 6 or Evo 7 route. More power as standard, easier to squeeze more bhp/toque out of it, superb handling, decent brakes.....

I love my flat four WRX though....

WREXY

Thanks everybody for some top info.

Thank you too John for your reply. Some excellent info here. I'm quite happy with what I have power wise and like you, I just want to make it safer, by cooling it down with a bigger turbo and intercooler. I don't want the big power. I'm just getting a little frightened with all these engine failures happening with cars that have the stock turbo/intercooler. It seems to me it is safer to have a bigger turbo and an uprated intercooler than it is to have the stock set up, running sensible boost ofcourse, because they run cooler and probably save the engine.

Cheers,

Wrexy.

Adam M

Agree with bob,

I also disagree with steve on the water injection front.

People are going to ahve to understand that water injection is inefficient if you expect it to lower charge temps. That is much better done through water spray. Injection is meant to reduce the onset of det, costing power but allowing you to advance ignition which will more than make up for the lost power, at teh expense of engine efficiency.

Definitely consider a hybrid VF series turbo or as bob says a standard vf23.

I happen to be selling a hybrid turbo or two at the moment .

I must admit, I reckon the TD04 on a front mount is going to be a serious dissapointment as it simply doesnt have the guts to keep the thing full and pressurised. I ahve only experienced this on one car, and the result was a very noticable pressuraistion lag delay that made the car hugely dissapointing.

Having fitted a front mount to mine, I noticed no extra lag, but then a big turbo goes a long way to helping that.

BTW, you dont lose the aircon with a PACE front mount, that was a very important part of the design brief when it was created!

I think agroup buy would be out of the question for the reasons mentioned, but potential cheap sources are discussed in my 2 hybrid turbos for sale thread.

Adam M

ps. john, no one listens to me!

Evereything you hear from me is repeated knowledge from people who know their stuff, and then the chinese whispers effect can take over. Remember to always keep a pinch of salt handy.