Engine Management - Recommendations?
18 January 2002, 10:47 PM
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I was running my EJ25 with an Electromotive Tec-II. The system fell short of my expectations.
a) The software was horrible. After 6 point releases of wintec it was still full of bugs.
b) The phased injector drivers made it difficult to keep a lean idle while running injectors big enough to do anything. Basically for ever time a stock injector fires the Tec fires them twice.
c) The idle control firmware had problems where it wouldn't reset the ICM if you didn't turn off the key completely this caused a surge in idle RPMs until the control routine backed it off enough. It also wouldn't support more than 255 steps to close properly. More starting trouble.
d) The EGO feedback didn't support any sort of coarse/fine adjustment so it was either too slow (from too small an adjustment change) or continually overshot the target AFR.
e) Did not support launch control or ALS.
f) Had only one GPO. I'd like one for the boost solenoid as well as water spray for the intercooler and perhaps a few other ideas.
g) Had no speedo control and no ability to put in a speed limiter should this actually be wanted, like where there is a speed limit on pit lane.
h) The software did not permit changing of parameters while the engine was running. This meant tuning things like idle you'd start it and stop it to flash in a new set of settings all day long to get it working properly.
i) No documentation is available on how to communicate with the ECU. I wanted to wire up a system that flashed in a non-working map and you had to enter a password or electronically disarm the alarm before it would even turn on the injectors. Anti-theft basically.
Having ranted about all my problems I have decided not to wait for the Tec-III. I doubt any of the problems will be fixed.
Which ECUs have you guys used/tuned?
I'm interested in the GEMS system but don't want to buy it if I just end up with another set of headaches. This is a street driven car, not a racecar. Drivability is very important to me.
-Michael
a) The software was horrible. After 6 point releases of wintec it was still full of bugs.
b) The phased injector drivers made it difficult to keep a lean idle while running injectors big enough to do anything. Basically for ever time a stock injector fires the Tec fires them twice.
c) The idle control firmware had problems where it wouldn't reset the ICM if you didn't turn off the key completely this caused a surge in idle RPMs until the control routine backed it off enough. It also wouldn't support more than 255 steps to close properly. More starting trouble.
d) The EGO feedback didn't support any sort of coarse/fine adjustment so it was either too slow (from too small an adjustment change) or continually overshot the target AFR.
e) Did not support launch control or ALS.
f) Had only one GPO. I'd like one for the boost solenoid as well as water spray for the intercooler and perhaps a few other ideas.
g) Had no speedo control and no ability to put in a speed limiter should this actually be wanted, like where there is a speed limit on pit lane.
h) The software did not permit changing of parameters while the engine was running. This meant tuning things like idle you'd start it and stop it to flash in a new set of settings all day long to get it working properly.
i) No documentation is available on how to communicate with the ECU. I wanted to wire up a system that flashed in a non-working map and you had to enter a password or electronically disarm the alarm before it would even turn on the injectors. Anti-theft basically.
Having ranted about all my problems I have decided not to wait for the Tec-III. I doubt any of the problems will be fixed.
Which ECUs have you guys used/tuned?
I'm interested in the GEMS system but don't want to buy it if I just end up with another set of headaches. This is a street driven car, not a racecar. Drivability is very important to me.
-Michael
18 January 2002, 11:54 PM
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Michael,
The Gems has a very good reputation, and the plug, and play is pretty well priced. Although it does need to be mapped.
My concern with any "plug, and play", replacement board, would be how well it would work with your set up, and feel that a generic ECU, such as the Motec, or Pectel would be far better, but at a price.
Take a look at their web sites, and see if what you think. I suspect either the Motec M48pro, or M800 if it's been de-bugged, and withn your budget, or the Pectel T6, which I use, and would recommend, again ata price, or if you can find a way to get the T2 to run all your functions, it's also a very good price.
As far as Pectel's service is concerned, it's VERY good. I found myself on an engine dyno, new version of the T6, and we found the software needed modifying for my set up......1/2hour later, revised software had been sorted, and emailed over !!!!!!!!
Mark.
The Gems has a very good reputation, and the plug, and play is pretty well priced. Although it does need to be mapped.
My concern with any "plug, and play", replacement board, would be how well it would work with your set up, and feel that a generic ECU, such as the Motec, or Pectel would be far better, but at a price.
Take a look at their web sites, and see if what you think. I suspect either the Motec M48pro, or M800 if it's been de-bugged, and withn your budget, or the Pectel T6, which I use, and would recommend, again ata price, or if you can find a way to get the T2 to run all your functions, it's also a very good price.
As far as Pectel's service is concerned, it's VERY good. I found myself on an engine dyno, new version of the T6, and we found the software needed modifying for my set up......1/2hour later, revised software had been sorted, and emailed over !!!!!!!!
Mark.
19 January 2002, 10:46 PM
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I have a GEMS system fitted to my Subaru Version 5 and I can honestly say it's one of the best things I have done. The system is far superior to the MOTEC mentioned above as back in 1995/1996 when all these electronic systems were being brought out, it was GEMS that provided PRODRIVE with all the software. I personally feel and can comment for alot of others I have discussed this with that GEMS is the stronger system to fit to the Subaru where as the MOTEC system is stronger on the Mitsubishi.
I had mine fitted and mapped by Town End Garage Motorsport I suggest you give them a call and they will talk it through with you. Tel no 01524 720295 or 01524 733837.
Hope this helps,
Impreza Babe.
I had mine fitted and mapped by Town End Garage Motorsport I suggest you give them a call and they will talk it through with you. Tel no 01524 720295 or 01524 733837.
Hope this helps,
Impreza Babe.
20 January 2002, 02:18 AM
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Impreza Babe,
If you're not on Townends pay role, you should be
Hackish Lives in Canada, and whilst your Favoured tuner would probaly jump at the chance of a trip to Canada, I suspect it may be a little impractical..... apart from the engines a turbo'd RS2.5lt, and I'm not certain the Gems would be his best option.
By the way, Prodrive now use Pectel for a lot of their ecu's
Mark.
If you're not on Townends pay role, you should be
Hackish Lives in Canada, and whilst your Favoured tuner would probaly jump at the chance of a trip to Canada, I suspect it may be a little impractical..... apart from the engines a turbo'd RS2.5lt, and I'm not certain the Gems would be his best option.
By the way, Prodrive now use Pectel for a lot of their ecu's
Mark.
20 January 2002, 06:12 AM
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Actually the engine and wiring in question is an STi V.4. I bought the Tec-II when I intended to turbo my EJ25 but a midnight addition to my gas tank did away with that engine.
GEMS is really where I'm leaning but wanted to see what you folks had to say. There is someone I met who tuned a certain rally car around here and he is supposed to be the soobie god of the UK. He certainly impressed me with his knowledge. Anyway I believe he's going to be up here in the spring and I have an option to pay part of his costs and he will tune my car too... As I learned the hard way, never ask a tuner if his own product is any good.
-Michael
GEMS is really where I'm leaning but wanted to see what you folks had to say. There is someone I met who tuned a certain rally car around here and he is supposed to be the soobie god of the UK. He certainly impressed me with his knowledge. Anyway I believe he's going to be up here in the spring and I have an option to pay part of his costs and he will tune my car too... As I learned the hard way, never ask a tuner if his own product is any good.
-Michael
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20 January 2002, 01:42 PM
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Michael,
Choose the ecu based on who can tune it locally, or one where you can adjust it yourself, should you need to.
Any of the Gems, Motec, Pectel, if tuned correctly, will be more than able to give good results.
The guys at Gems are very approachable, and aslo flexable with software requirements. The same for Pectel. Motec not so easy.
The Pectel T6 has the most input/outputs, and is probably the most sophisticated, although it will be the hardest to fit. This is because you have to make your own loom adapter, and also it won't support the Subaru crank pickup. Same as the Tech 11, IIRC.
Another thing to consider, although it may not be relevent, is that both the Motec, and Pectel can be transferred to another car, just needing a new loom adapter. The Gems can't of course.
Out of curiosity, who's the tuner coming over ?
Mark.
Choose the ecu based on who can tune it locally, or one where you can adjust it yourself, should you need to.
Any of the Gems, Motec, Pectel, if tuned correctly, will be more than able to give good results.
The guys at Gems are very approachable, and aslo flexable with software requirements. The same for Pectel. Motec not so easy.
The Pectel T6 has the most input/outputs, and is probably the most sophisticated, although it will be the hardest to fit. This is because you have to make your own loom adapter, and also it won't support the Subaru crank pickup. Same as the Tech 11, IIRC.
Another thing to consider, although it may not be relevent, is that both the Motec, and Pectel can be transferred to another car, just needing a new loom adapter. The Gems can't of course.
Out of curiosity, who's the tuner coming over ?
Mark.
20 January 2002, 04:00 PM
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Actually Impreza Babe is right - I have just recently fit and mapped a GEMS system in Canada - the travelling and visit there is no problem. It is my partner Steve Simpson that is due to return in the spring to fit and map more systems. It's a small world isn't it!!!!!!!!!
If you are thinking of having this fit give me a call I will be happy to help and advise you in any way I can. Also I can give you the dates when we will be over there.
Stuart.
If you are thinking of having this fit give me a call I will be happy to help and advise you in any way I can. Also I can give you the dates when we will be over there.
Stuart.
20 January 2002, 04:40 PM
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Suppose I better reply to all this as you are talking about me!!!
Which is better, Gems , Motec ,Pectel??
In terms of functionality there really isn't anything to choose between these systems - and I have mapped all of them on Subarus , EVOs ,Cossies etc.At the end of the day if the map is "right" i.e you are getting the optimum AFR ,with max advance but no det ,and good closed loop boost control (which in my experience the GEMS does best) then you will have the same power from all three.
The question is then down to 2 issues:
How easy is it to get a good map?
Price!!
All three have user friendly software (windows or DOS on GEMS and PECTEL) and support live mapping. THe GEMS is marginally easier to use in graphics mode.
Price wise though the GEMS wins.I do fully mapped systems installed at your place from £1395. Motec is probably £500 more.
Also on V5 the GEMS includes active electronic centre diff control as part of the package - you can alter the degree of lock from the throttle position and footbrake plus handbrake release.
Hope this clarifies the position
Steve S
Which is better, Gems , Motec ,Pectel??
In terms of functionality there really isn't anything to choose between these systems - and I have mapped all of them on Subarus , EVOs ,Cossies etc.At the end of the day if the map is "right" i.e you are getting the optimum AFR ,with max advance but no det ,and good closed loop boost control (which in my experience the GEMS does best) then you will have the same power from all three.
The question is then down to 2 issues:
How easy is it to get a good map?
Price!!
All three have user friendly software (windows or DOS on GEMS and PECTEL) and support live mapping. THe GEMS is marginally easier to use in graphics mode.
Price wise though the GEMS wins.I do fully mapped systems installed at your place from £1395. Motec is probably £500 more.
Also on V5 the GEMS includes active electronic centre diff control as part of the package - you can alter the degree of lock from the throttle position and footbrake plus handbrake release.
Hope this clarifies the position
Steve S
20 January 2002, 10:11 PM
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Was that you I met at Lachute, Stewart? I'm so horrible with names... Got to get the name and email addy from Rejean again. Jon said that he was thinking of bringing you back in the spring so it certainly sounds like the right guy.
Given a good base map I don't have a problem tuning myself. Many of my problems with the Tec-II were not solvable great tuner or not
-Michael
Given a good base map I don't have a problem tuning myself. Many of my problems with the Tec-II were not solvable great tuner or not
-Michael
21 January 2002, 02:56 PM
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Impreza Babe,
Re: "The system is far superior to the MOTEC mentioned above as back in 1995/1996 when all these electronic systems were being brought out, it was GEMS that provided PRODRIVE with all the software."
Full marks for such an in depth and up to date apraisal of the situation.
I especially enjoyed the incredible technical level of your argument. 
Moray
Re: "The system is far superior to the MOTEC mentioned above as back in 1995/1996 when all these electronic systems were being brought out, it was GEMS that provided PRODRIVE with all the software."
Full marks for such an in depth and up to date apraisal of the situation.
I especially enjoyed the incredible technical level of your argument. Moray
21 January 2002, 11:08 PM
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I am taking the above comment as a compliment - as sad as I may be!! It may have been made sarcastically - but I hope not!!
I spend alot of time reading my Subaru magazines and books and enjoy spending time at Town End Garage picking their brains and generally having the chat with other Subaru people as they have loads of different Sub's in for repairs or for sale. It's great you get to look at all the different models and upgrades without having to spend a penny!!
They have a 22B in at the moment - with a full engine overhaul - wow that car is just lovely - this is my next challenge to own one of these.
Us girls don't just like doing the washing and housework you know -some of us do have hobbies as well!
Impreza Babe.
I spend alot of time reading my Subaru magazines and books and enjoy spending time at Town End Garage picking their brains and generally having the chat with other Subaru people as they have loads of different Sub's in for repairs or for sale. It's great you get to look at all the different models and upgrades without having to spend a penny!!
They have a 22B in at the moment - with a full engine overhaul - wow that car is just lovely - this is my next challenge to own one of these.
Us girls don't just like doing the washing and housework you know -some of us do have hobbies as well!
Impreza Babe.
22 January 2002, 03:40 AM
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A couple of hours watching steve and asking loads of questions and my brain was full. I'm sure some of the knowledge splashed out when I finally drove home. And I thought I knew a lot about tuning.
-Michael
-Michael
22 January 2002, 10:50 AM
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Hi J,
LOL Judging by I.B.'s reply to my comment, I can see you are completely right in your not unusually sagely advice! At last, someone who has saved me from myself!
Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 10:52:17 AM]
LOL
Judging by I.B.'s reply to my comment, I can see you are completely right in your not unusually sagely advice! At last, someone who has saved me from myself! Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 10:52:17 AM]
22 January 2002, 11:40 AM
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I remember the motecs being crap then too.
Like with all computer software, bugs are never fixed, and software simply doesn't evolve. In short, if motec screwed up once, they must obviously still be useless.
I have heard great things about GEMS, but after much consideration I am sticking with my pectel t6 plan. AFAIC if Pat reviewed everything available at suitable budget and decided on the pectel then its good enough for me. I know few electronics brains more capable of choosing the correct hardware for the job.
It is however much more money than the GEMS so a direct comparison would not be fair.
J, I whoop moray in arguments all the time, not 100% of the time, but often, even he would concede to that. At least he doesnt descend to the level of insulting my mother when he is losing
.
Moray, never argue with women, a man cannot win a battle with someone who thinks irrationally and illogically.
[Edited by Adam M - 1/22/2002 11:43:56 AM]
Like with all computer software, bugs are never fixed, and software simply doesn't evolve. In short, if motec screwed up once, they must obviously still be useless.
I have heard great things about GEMS, but after much consideration I am sticking with my pectel t6 plan. AFAIC if Pat reviewed everything available at suitable budget and decided on the pectel then its good enough for me. I know few electronics brains more capable of choosing the correct hardware for the job.
It is however much more money than the GEMS so a direct comparison would not be fair.
J, I whoop moray in arguments all the time, not 100% of the time, but often, even he would concede to that. At least he doesnt descend to the level of insulting my mother when he is losing
.Moray, never argue with women, a man cannot win a battle with someone who thinks irrationally and illogically
.[Edited by Adam M - 1/22/2002 11:43:56 AM]
22 January 2002, 11:48 AM
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RichiB,
Blimey Rich, it sounds like your trying to get a rise out of me!
I have read interesting things about the use of multiple exclaimation marks and what it says about the writers phychological state of mind, but thats going further off-topic.
Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 12:05:50 PM]
Blimey Rich, it sounds like your trying to get a rise out of me!
I have read interesting things about the use of multiple exclaimation marks and what it says about the writers phychological state of mind, but thats going further off-topic.
Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 12:05:50 PM]
22 January 2002, 11:55 AM
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Adam,
I tend to let you believe you have "won" arguments as that is the path to an easy life. You have a tendancy to keep moving the goalposts under an argument until you feel you have a winning setup, which is nice.
Moray
I tend to let you believe you have "won" arguments as that is the path to an easy life.
You have a tendancy to keep moving the goalposts under an argument until you feel you have a winning setup, which is nice. Moray
22 January 2002, 01:43 PM
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Moray, I have to move the goal posts, it takes you so long to figure out what you want to say that I have often died by the time you answer.
Sometimes you will note I will completely backtrack on my original point because getting you to understand is too boring. It is easier to create a new argument so that either you win, or I confuse you by contradicting myself. Either way five mins is better than 8 years.
Sometimes you will note I will completely backtrack on my original point because getting you to understand is too boring. It is easier to create a new argument so that either you win, or I confuse you by contradicting myself. Either way five mins is better than 8 years.
22 January 2002, 02:20 PM
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Adam,
How much longer do I have to disagree with you on this thread in order that you decease again? More importantly, how long does this deceased, and I assume quiet, state last?
Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 2:23:29 PM]
How much longer do I have to disagree with you on this thread in order that you decease again? More importantly, how long does this deceased, and I assume quiet, state last?
Moray
[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 1/22/2002 2:23:29 PM]
24 January 2002, 12:05 PM
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Ive recently had a Gems sytem fitted by Steve from Town end gareage on my Sti V5, these lads have done a lot of work to my car and to date it has covered over 6000 very hard miles without as much as a cough.
The Gems fitted was the latest model with 2 maps available, selectable by a simple toggle switch, the first map is set up for Super unleaded fuel, whilst the 2nd retards the ignition and fuel map by 4 degrees allowing the car to be hammered all day long on 95 ron unleaded. You do feel a loss in power, however I live in a very rural area were its a 70 mile round trip to get super.
The best feature though is the Anti Lag system as used on rally cars, the throttle responce driving these welsh lane with it switched on is amazing, never mind the amazing flames you get out the back between gear changes. As an added bonus my fuel consumption is beter by around 10%
Id recommend the Gems to anyone and Steve is the man to map it!!
Ring them for a chat, you wont find anyone more helpfull, tell them Kevin from Wales gave you the number. Cheers
Stuart & Steve : 01524 733837
The Gems fitted was the latest model with 2 maps available, selectable by a simple toggle switch, the first map is set up for Super unleaded fuel, whilst the 2nd retards the ignition and fuel map by 4 degrees allowing the car to be hammered all day long on 95 ron unleaded. You do feel a loss in power, however I live in a very rural area were its a 70 mile round trip to get super.
The best feature though is the Anti Lag system as used on rally cars, the throttle responce driving these welsh lane with it switched on is amazing, never mind the amazing flames you get out the back between gear changes. As an added bonus my fuel consumption is beter by around 10%
Id recommend the Gems to anyone and Steve is the man to map it!!
Ring them for a chat, you wont find anyone more helpfull, tell them Kevin from Wales gave you the number. Cheers
Stuart & Steve : 01524 733837
24 January 2002, 02:19 PM
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Just for informational purposes, I believe that Powerstation have mapped GEMS systems for scoobies in the past... In fact, IIRC, they actually originally installed and mapped a GEMS ECU on Steve Simpson's car years ago, which is, indeed, interesting.