Insane power from the WRX
11 January 2001, 10:24 PM
#1
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Light,
just out of interest - at 70% injector duty cycle the car is running on the leaner side - 7% CO equivalent.
Dumping fuel in doesn't solve anything - lost power and ultimately more det.
And I guess that ultimately the amount of fuel being used efficiently is a fairly good measure of overall potential power.
Cheers,
David
PS Steve - have you got your new injectors in yet?
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 11/1/2001 10:26:27 PM]
just out of interest - at 70% injector duty cycle the car is running on the leaner side - 7% CO equivalent.
Dumping fuel in doesn't solve anything - lost power and ultimately more det.
And I guess that ultimately the amount of fuel being used efficiently is a fairly good measure of overall potential power.
Cheers,
David
PS Steve - have you got your new injectors in yet?
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 11/1/2001 10:26:27 PM]
29 October 2001, 05:54 PM
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Hello fellas!
Have you seen the recent threads about modification on the US forum ( http://www.i-club.com ) in the factory forced forum?
There are several guys with dynoed cars that's gone upwards 400 at the crank...
On stock INTERNALS...
They're running the usual stuff, a big turbo and bigger injectors.
Hardly anything major...
What do U guys think?
I've thought ~300-350 is MAX safe on the chocolate internals...
/J
Have you seen the recent threads about modification on the US forum ( http://www.i-club.com ) in the factory forced forum?
There are several guys with dynoed cars that's gone upwards 400 at the crank...
On stock INTERNALS... They're running the usual stuff, a big turbo and bigger injectors.
Hardly anything major...
What do U guys think?
I've thought ~300-350 is MAX safe on the chocolate internals...
/J
29 October 2001, 06:09 PM
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Have you got the exact link
400bhp does seem high
Although they do have access to some top notch fuel
I would have thought that 400 bhp was a bit on the high side though
Dont really know what they can take
Mines about 350bhp on stock internals, and should be a little more once the injectors are in. Will have to see if they go
They can probably run loads of advance with some decent fuel
I thought it was the sustained higher boost pressures that destroyed the internals and head gasket
I'm sure Adam will comment
(Sorry about the previous posts mate - I was in a very bad mood - pls dont take it too seriously - certainly not getting at u just having a bad day....)
400bhp does seem high
Although they do have access to some top notch fuel
I would have thought that 400 bhp was a bit on the high side though
Dont really know what they can take
Mines about 350bhp on stock internals, and should be a little more once the injectors are in. Will have to see if they go
They can probably run loads of advance with some decent fuel
I thought it was the sustained higher boost pressures that destroyed the internals and head gasket
I'm sure Adam will comment
(Sorry about the previous posts mate - I was in a very bad mood - pls dont take it too seriously - certainly not getting at u just having a bad day....)
29 October 2001, 06:16 PM
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Hi!
No worries mate.
There are several with ~350 under the "Factory forced induction"...but here's the one I reacted to...
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106652
It says on race gas though...so mebbe...still sounds a tad risky.
I'm running somewhere in the region of ~270-300 (haven't dynoed it yet - just got some quarter mile figures to play with) in my euro turbo - and I really don't lnow if it's safe to push it any further, since I track my car...and enjoy the odd spirited drive.
But if 350-400 is safe...hell...maybe one should sort bigger injectors, an FMIC and up the boost a tad?
/J
No worries mate.
There are several with ~350 under the "Factory forced induction"...but here's the one I reacted to...
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106652
It says on race gas though...so mebbe...still sounds a tad risky.
I'm running somewhere in the region of ~270-300 (haven't dynoed it yet - just got some quarter mile figures to play with) in my euro turbo - and I really don't lnow if it's safe to push it any further, since I track my car...and enjoy the odd spirited drive.
But if 350-400 is safe...hell...maybe one should sort bigger injectors, an FMIC and up the boost a tad?
/J
30 October 2001, 10:08 AM
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adam is gonna comment.
As far as I am concerned 400bhp is 400 bhp whether they achieve it using ignition advance or by upping the boost. If the rods dont fail, does it matter that much how they achieve it?
Would like a theoretical answer to this from pat!
As far as I am concerned 400bhp is 400 bhp whether they achieve it using ignition advance or by upping the boost. If the rods dont fail, does it matter that much how they achieve it?
Would like a theoretical answer to this from pat!
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30 October 2001, 11:28 AM
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Still, what I'm concerned about is the rods, bearings and pistons...will they withstand 350-400 real horsies...how much torque would such a lump put out...300 lbft...320..more?
AS long as you've got enough fuel, and can keep the engine from detting, it's just a matter of getting more air in there.
And to get the advance right, so you're using as much as possible from the energy that's being released.
/J
AS long as you've got enough fuel, and can keep the engine from detting, it's just a matter of getting more air in there.
And to get the advance right, so you're using as much as possible from the energy that's being released.
/J
30 October 2001, 12:41 PM
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I certainly hope its more than 300-320lbs
Mine put out 338lbs at a recent Rolling road day - will see what I get at Powerengineering to compare
But I've got a few things to do
I suspect once I've got bigger injectors and water injection I'll have around 370bhp and about 360lbs torque running at around 1.4 bar held on stock internals
Nahhhhhh - you want a proper turbo like Mine/Adam M's and Craig H's a vf22 thats had a bit of, erm additional modification.....
Mine put out 338lbs at a recent Rolling road day - will see what I get at Powerengineering to compare
But I've got a few things to do
I suspect once I've got bigger injectors and water injection I'll have around 370bhp and about 360lbs torque running at around 1.4 bar held on stock internals
Nahhhhhh - you want a proper turbo like Mine/Adam M's and Craig H's a vf22 thats had a bit of, erm additional modification.....
30 October 2001, 06:19 PM
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Nutter -I'll take that as a compliment
Not sure what standard Euro Spec internals are
The car is from Japan... an sti5 - and I aint changed very much - running oodles of ignition advance and about 99ron
Not sure what standard Euro Spec internals are
The car is from Japan... an sti5 - and I aint changed very much - running oodles of ignition advance and about 99ron
30 October 2001, 07:14 PM
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The biggest weakness in the Subaru standard internals are the conrod bolts, I snapped ones in my car, and now have ones about 1/4 the size larger, and made of a stronger steel.
30 October 2001, 08:10 PM
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Steve U cheater...I thought you were running a euro scoob.
I'm running 18 psi's on a euro 218 hp deck, with a VF24, and 440's on ~88-90 % duty cycle, running an AFR of ~12:1.
I think I'd better go for bigger injectors before going up in boost.
/J
I'm running 18 psi's on a euro 218 hp deck, with a VF24, and 440's on ~88-90 % duty cycle, running an AFR of ~12:1.
I think I'd better go for bigger injectors before going up in boost.
/J
31 October 2001, 12:44 PM
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Not an upgraded pump at present
Then again I have not put in the 740's - sitting in my house at present
Based on other peoples experience they are at about 70% duty cycle on a standard pump
Once the maps have been tweaked a little more for water injection then they will probably be up nearer 75-80%, which is probably about right
My current injectors (440 or 480 - not sure which) max out completely at around 6000 rpm
There is a lot of debate about 550's of 740's - of course 650's are the perfect compromise - but you dont get many people with these on - hence a lot more expensive!
I felt that I would be virtually maxxed out on the 550's - so like a few others have opted for the 740's
Will have to see re the pump. Easy to swap to an uprated jobbie - just may be a bit difficult to get at on my car - as I have so much bolted dowm stereo gear in the boot and a false seat back - which I think may be in the way of lifting the boot floor?
Secretagentman
I wish I'd started with a UK car - then the gains would probably have been more noticeable!
That said I should have bought a second hand car with a few mods already
If a decent example comes up at the right price - I'll buy it for the, erm girlfriend - honest.... it wont be for me to tinker with...., while I can go '***** out' on my car. Not that a 2.6 litre engine conversion has ever crossed my mind!
(just wish I had the time.....)
Then again I have not put in the 740's - sitting in my house at present
Based on other peoples experience they are at about 70% duty cycle on a standard pump
Once the maps have been tweaked a little more for water injection then they will probably be up nearer 75-80%, which is probably about right
My current injectors (440 or 480 - not sure which) max out completely at around 6000 rpm
There is a lot of debate about 550's of 740's - of course 650's are the perfect compromise - but you dont get many people with these on - hence a lot more expensive!
I felt that I would be virtually maxxed out on the 550's - so like a few others have opted for the 740's
Will have to see re the pump. Easy to swap to an uprated jobbie - just may be a bit difficult to get at on my car - as I have so much bolted dowm stereo gear in the boot and a false seat back - which I think may be in the way of lifting the boot floor?
Secretagentman
I wish I'd started with a UK car - then the gains would probably have been more noticeable!
That said I should have bought a second hand car with a few mods already
If a decent example comes up at the right price - I'll buy it for the, erm girlfriend - honest.... it wont be for me to tinker with...., while I can go '***** out' on my car. Not that a 2.6 litre engine conversion has ever crossed my mind!
(just wish I had the time.....)
31 October 2001, 02:02 PM
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Jerry,
The barings aren't an issue, rods, pistons, fuel system, and drivetrain are.
There are people out there, that are prepared to really push things, and accept the concequences. It's much cheaper to modify a car in the US. Time will tell just how reliable these cars are. We also have no way of knowing just how accurate the figures are (based on the 377ftlbs I got on a RR).
With uprated internals, it's frightening just how much boost can be run, if the turbo, fuel system, etc' is also matched correctly.
I recently saw a Subaru engine run at 40psi (2.75bar) and it's still in one piece....at 2bar, it was concidered to be run very conservatively !!!!! It was being mapped on a bench dyno.
Steve: Adjusting the fueling for WI, involves "reducing" the fueling, so expect "lower" injector %'s, not higher.
Mark.
The barings aren't an issue, rods, pistons, fuel system, and drivetrain are.
There are people out there, that are prepared to really push things, and accept the concequences. It's much cheaper to modify a car in the US. Time will tell just how reliable these cars are. We also have no way of knowing just how accurate the figures are (based on the 377ftlbs I got on a RR
). With uprated internals, it's frightening just how much boost can be run, if the turbo, fuel system, etc' is also matched correctly.
I recently saw a Subaru engine run at 40psi (2.75bar
) and it's still in one piece....at 2bar, it was concidered to be run very conservatively !!!!! It was being mapped on a bench dyno.Steve: Adjusting the fueling for WI, involves "reducing" the fueling, so expect "lower" injector %'s, not higher.
Mark.
31 October 2001, 03:25 PM
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just wish to say the fuel pump upgrade is a must on bigger inj.
tried taking short cuts but in the end the apexi people and ben from belperformance were abselutly right , it is quite noisy i must say.
tried taking short cuts but in the end the apexi people and ben from belperformance were abselutly right , it is quite noisy i must say.
31 October 2001, 05:50 PM
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Mark>>Cheers mate, did U get the file I sent U?
I've got some decent rods on the way (if the price is right), I haven't looked at pistons yet...this talk of forged ones being noisier kinda scares me.
Is there a suitable uprated fuel pump that fits straight in without having to fiddle with it?
How much does the stock one flow?
Cheers fellas!
/J
I've got some decent rods on the way (if the price is right), I haven't looked at pistons yet...this talk of forged ones being noisier kinda scares me.
Is there a suitable uprated fuel pump that fits straight in without having to fiddle with it?
How much does the stock one flow?
Cheers fellas!
/J
31 October 2001, 09:15 PM
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FSE sell a direct replacement pump for about £140. It flows 220lts ph.
I do agree about uprating the pump, but when you do the calculations, it's odd that it's needed. EG: 550cc injectors flow 105.6lts ph, at 80%, 440cc's flow 84.5lts ph. So why do we need bigger pumps ?????
That said, I'm running 2 Bosch '044 pumps, rated at 235lts ph, but I like to be carefull
Mark.
I do agree about uprating the pump, but when you do the calculations, it's odd that it's needed. EG: 550cc injectors flow 105.6lts ph, at 80%, 440cc's flow 84.5lts ph. So why do we need bigger pumps ?????
That said, I'm running 2 Bosch '044 pumps, rated at 235lts ph, but I like to be carefull
Mark.
31 October 2001, 09:59 PM
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Ok to help you people out on some info... i am really close buddies with the owner of the WRX w/ 310 Whp (est. crank of 390)
He has...
PE Fuel Pump
PE 1820 turbo.. (good for 450 hp's)
SARD FPR
STI Fuel Injectors
BPM 3" Turboback Catless w/ Twister Muffler
MRT Top Mount I/c
Blitz SBC-ID
Injen CAI
UNICHIP custom mapped by TURBOXS
Previosly 1/4 Mile times of 12.7 @ 107
He projects to go low 12's
[Edited by Imprezd - 10/31/2001 10:01:51 PM]
He has...
PE Fuel Pump
PE 1820 turbo.. (good for 450 hp's)
SARD FPR
STI Fuel Injectors
BPM 3" Turboback Catless w/ Twister Muffler
MRT Top Mount I/c
Blitz SBC-ID
Injen CAI
UNICHIP custom mapped by TURBOXS
Previosly 1/4 Mile times of 12.7 @ 107
He projects to go low 12's
[Edited by Imprezd - 10/31/2001 10:01:51 PM]
31 October 2001, 10:10 PM
#26
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Light Fantastic,
85% on 550 injectors at 1.35 bar doesn't sound like a lot of power to me.
I still have some way to go in tuning my car - based on analogues elsewhere I will need an extra 3-4% fuel absolute. And I would already be at around 100% on a 550. I would also be surprised if my car had a genuine 350, probably 320 - depending on the RR.
Oh, and BTW I have 740 injectors in after taking my stock Sti V inj well over 120% which means they are acting as a useless funnel. Now peaking at over 70% on the 740s - word has it that 80% is the optimum maximum to ensure the inj is working properly. I am aware of another STi V getting around 75% on 740 inj.
Trout
PS Before fitting I thought a 740 was a ridiculous size of injector - not now!
85% on 550 injectors at 1.35 bar doesn't sound like a lot of power to me.
I still have some way to go in tuning my car - based on analogues elsewhere I will need an extra 3-4% fuel absolute. And I would already be at around 100% on a 550. I would also be surprised if my car had a genuine 350, probably 320 - depending on the RR.
Oh, and BTW I have 740 injectors in after taking my stock Sti V inj well over 120% which means they are acting as a useless funnel. Now peaking at over 70% on the 740s - word has it that 80% is the optimum maximum to ensure the inj is working properly. I am aware of another STi V getting around 75% on 740 inj.
Trout
PS Before fitting I thought a 740 was a ridiculous size of injector - not now!
31 October 2001, 11:07 PM
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Aren't the horsepower in the US weaker than most ones used overseas? Everyone seems to have 300+HP there and only run mid 13's. Also some people there seem to use extremely dodgy methods of calculating HP at the crank, seems most of them haven't quite cottoned onto getting kW ATW instead.
31 October 2001, 11:22 PM
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Spurner,
The same arguement came up on the GT4 lists a while back. It was agreed that it "appears" that American horses are easier to get than UK and NZ horses with Aus horses being in between.
Whether there is any truth in that, I don't think we ever decided.
Cheers
Ian
The same arguement came up on the GT4 lists a while back. It was agreed that it "appears" that American horses are easier to get than UK and NZ horses with Aus horses being in between.
Whether there is any truth in that, I don't think we ever decided.
Cheers
Ian
31 October 2001, 11:29 PM
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What up with the US horsepower bashing...
Just to let you guys know that their is people with MBC and turboback exhaust running Mid 13's easily...
And Basically anyone with 300 hp's is or will running in the 12's.
Mind you that 310 whp is fairly impressive with 550 injectors at 85% duty... These are all simple mods to tell the truth...
Imprezd~
Just to let you guys know that their is people with MBC and turboback exhaust running Mid 13's easily...
And Basically anyone with 300 hp's is or will running in the 12's.
Mind you that 310 whp is fairly impressive with 550 injectors at 85% duty... These are all simple mods to tell the truth...
Imprezd~
01 November 2001, 03:50 AM
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i am not much of an expert on turbos but i think i have seen a diagram by jan shim of the pe1820 as far as i know the intake is 70 m"m and the exhaust is 36 that would make it just the same as my apexi .
as for fueling from what i know depending on fuel grade best tuning
is achived by careful ( read very careful ) leaning of the fuel curve , more is not allways better dumping too much fuel will cost you bhp
as for fueling from what i know depending on fuel grade best tuning
is achived by careful ( read very careful ) leaning of the fuel curve , more is not allways better dumping too much fuel will cost you bhp