Cooling problems... The saga continues! Help please!
28 June 2001, 01:33 AM
#2
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Leigh,
Definitely sounds like head gaskets have gone this year alone I have done the same job on 1 Impreza and 2 Twin Turbo Legacy's.
What usually happens is after a hard drive ie lots of boost it forces the coolant out of the expansion bottle.
Would advise getting a head gasket test done(funny blue liquid which turns green if combustion gas is present in antifreeze) or and not really guarunteed to work stick the probe from an exhaust gas analyzer into the expansion bottle.But will give you an idea.
If they have gone get the heads skimmed/checked for straightness and a crack test(more money but worth it for peace of mind)
Regards
Steve
Definitely sounds like head gaskets have gone this year alone I have done the same job on 1 Impreza and 2 Twin Turbo Legacy's.
What usually happens is after a hard drive ie lots of boost it forces the coolant out of the expansion bottle.
Would advise getting a head gasket test done(funny blue liquid which turns green if combustion gas is present in antifreeze) or and not really guarunteed to work stick the probe from an exhaust gas analyzer into the expansion bottle.But will give you an idea.
If they have gone get the heads skimmed/checked for straightness and a crack test(more money but worth it for peace of mind)
Regards
Steve
28 June 2001, 03:46 PM
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Leigh,
Your radiator pump vanes could have corroded till they are not able to circulate your coolant around the engine.Is your radiator,header tank or the plastic bottle showed any signs of rust?
A friend's MR2 overheat when he was on his way home at night and next day the dealer found that the pump corroded badly till the pump impeller/vanes nearly disappear.
Hope this helps.
Your radiator pump vanes could have corroded till they are not able to circulate your coolant around the engine.Is your radiator,header tank or the plastic bottle showed any signs of rust?
A friend's MR2 overheat when he was on his way home at night and next day the dealer found that the pump corroded badly till the pump impeller/vanes nearly disappear.
Hope this helps.
28 June 2001, 07:20 PM
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Thanks for the replies!
Roger clark's have given me a new header tank to try, and if that doesn't solve it they are going to swap the radiator.
They don't think it's the head gasket (let's hope not
), as the problem has been the same for 10 months or so, and they said it would have got much worse by now! I'm off to fit the header tank now, hopefully it might sort it!
Cheers
Leigh
Roger clark's have given me a new header tank to try, and if that doesn't solve it they are going to swap the radiator.
They don't think it's the head gasket (let's hope not
), as the problem has been the same for 10 months or so, and they said it would have got much worse by now! I'm off to fit the header tank now, hopefully it might sort it!Cheers
Leigh
30 June 2001, 11:14 AM
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IF YOUR HEATER ISNT BLOWING OUT HOT AIR ITS USUALLY AN AIRLOCK IN THE SYSTEM.MOST CARS HAVE BLEED VALVES ON THE HEATER MATRIX HOSES.TRY BLEEDING THESE HOSES UNTIL WATER SPEWS OUT.IF YOUR HEAD GASKET IS FAULTY USUALLY WATER WILL BE LOST FROM THE SYSTEM WITHOUT ANY APPARANT LEAKS AND OFTEN COMES OUT THE EXHAUST+ENGINE RUNS ROUGH DUE TO LACK OF COMPRESSION.HOPE THIS HELPS.
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01 July 2001, 09:11 PM
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it is defo ur headgaskets i've got a 2.5 legacy on my ramp at the mo with exactly the same probs except this 1 has had 2 rads and 1 thermostat so i know the only cure will be a head skim and headgaskets.
other symptoms it had were a cold bottom hose and you could touch the outside of the rad with ur hand and it was cool to touch even after a 7 mile testdrive.
also i've never seen this one way valve in the header tank could be their stuck for ideas and fobbing you off.
other symptoms it had were a cold bottom hose and you could touch the outside of the rad with ur hand and it was cool to touch even after a 7 mile testdrive.
also i've never seen this one way valve in the header tank could be their stuck for ideas and fobbing you off.
01 July 2001, 10:51 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scoobyboy:
<B>it is defo ur headgaskets i've got a 2.5 legacy on my ramp at the mo with exactly the same probs except this 1 has had 2 rads and 1 thermostat so i know the only cure will be a head skim and headgaskets.
other symptoms it had were a cold bottom hose and you could touch the outside of the rad with ur hand and it was cool to touch even after a 7 mile testdrive.
also i've never seen this one way valve in the header tank could be their stuck for ideas and fobbing you off.
[/quote]
Scoobyboy
Thanks for the reply mate, but the header tank definitely has a one way valve in it, it's inside the bottom pipeway on the front of the tank, (below the overflow pipe) if you put it to your mouth you can blow air in, but not suck air out. (I should know, it's sitting on the worktop in my kitchen!)
The weird thing is, under normal day to day driving, the bottom hose & the rad are very hot, the same as the top hose. It's only when the car has been caned then left to tick over that the water temp shoots up, when you are actually doing the 'caning' the temp is fine!
The guys at Roger Clark's aren't fobbing me off, (if you had dealt with them, you'd know they aren't like that) they are just trying one thing at a time (lending me parts FOC incidentally) so that I don't waste money unnessesarily.
Subevo
The airlock idea sounds interesting, I'll look into it. Come to think of it, I never had the problem until I had my coolant changed at the service last September!
Your comments re the head gasket are the same as my way of thinking, which is why I tend to think (perhaps that should read 'hope'
) that it isn't the head gaskets. (It isn't running rough at all, in fact if you have the current issue of Japanese Performance mag, there's a photo of my car on the rollers (Page 67) putting out 272bhp, and the car never missed a beat on that day, didn't get hot at all, and I also did a 200 mile round trip on that day! (admittedly, it was February - v. cold day, but the problem first arose last September!)
Ah well, back to the garage tomorrow!
I tell ya, if I hadn't just put a deposit on another house, I'd have gone and part-ex'd it against a new car this weekend. I am not a big fan of scoobs at the moment, I don't think I'll be buying another!
Gary
Thanks for the mail, if I get no further at the garage tomorrow, I'll give you a call!
Cheers
Leigh
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 01 July 2001).]
<B>it is defo ur headgaskets i've got a 2.5 legacy on my ramp at the mo with exactly the same probs except this 1 has had 2 rads and 1 thermostat so i know the only cure will be a head skim and headgaskets.
other symptoms it had were a cold bottom hose and you could touch the outside of the rad with ur hand and it was cool to touch even after a 7 mile testdrive.
also i've never seen this one way valve in the header tank could be their stuck for ideas and fobbing you off.
[/quote]
Scoobyboy
Thanks for the reply mate, but the header tank definitely has a one way valve in it, it's inside the bottom pipeway on the front of the tank, (below the overflow pipe) if you put it to your mouth you can blow air in, but not suck air out. (I should know, it's sitting on the worktop in my kitchen!)
The weird thing is, under normal day to day driving, the bottom hose & the rad are very hot, the same as the top hose. It's only when the car has been caned then left to tick over that the water temp shoots up, when you are actually doing the 'caning' the temp is fine!
The guys at Roger Clark's aren't fobbing me off, (if you had dealt with them, you'd know they aren't like that) they are just trying one thing at a time (lending me parts FOC incidentally) so that I don't waste money unnessesarily.
Subevo
The airlock idea sounds interesting, I'll look into it.
Come to think of it, I never had the problem until I had my coolant changed at the service last September!Your comments re the head gasket are the same as my way of thinking, which is why I tend to think (perhaps that should read 'hope'
) that it isn't the head gaskets. (It isn't running rough at all, in fact if you have the current issue of Japanese Performance mag, there's a photo of my car on the rollers (Page 67) putting out 272bhp, and the car never missed a beat on that day, didn't get hot at all, and I also did a 200 mile round trip on that day! (admittedly, it was February - v. cold day, but the problem first arose last September!)Ah well, back to the garage tomorrow!
I tell ya, if I hadn't just put a deposit on another house, I'd have gone and part-ex'd it against a new car this weekend. I am not a big fan of scoobs at the moment, I don't think I'll be buying another!
Gary
Thanks for the mail, if I get no further at the garage tomorrow, I'll give you a call!
Cheers
Leigh
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 01 July 2001).]
21 July 2001, 12:51 AM
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Update!
The car's been at Roger Clark's now since the 11th, and they're still no nearer sorting it out.
They've done the head gasket check (blue liquid that turns green/yellow if there are combustion gases in the coolant) and it was fine. It's also had the following parts tried, none of which made any difference:
Thermostat, radiator header tank, header tank cap, radiator. The ECU isn't showing any fault codes, and the car runs fine, not down on power or anything!
I'm at my wits end with the goddam car! - I think they are too...
I have to ring again on monday to see if they've got any further, but I'm not opimistic! I'm REALLY fed up with the car, it just seems I'm racking up a big bill for labour, and getting nowhere!
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 21 July 2001).]
The car's been at Roger Clark's now since the 11th, and they're still no nearer sorting it out.
They've done the head gasket check (blue liquid that turns green/yellow if there are combustion gases in the coolant) and it was fine. It's also had the following parts tried, none of which made any difference:
Thermostat, radiator header tank, header tank cap, radiator. The ECU isn't showing any fault codes, and the car runs fine, not down on power or anything!
I'm at my wits end with the goddam car! - I think they are too...
I have to ring again on monday to see if they've got any further, but I'm not opimistic! I'm REALLY fed up with the car, it just seems I'm racking up a big bill for labour, and getting nowhere!
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 21 July 2001).]
21 July 2001, 02:53 PM
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I assume the fans come on ??
Is there anything flocking air flow through the rad ??? FMIC for example
Before getting a new rad why not try flushing out the one you have ??
If the system up with fairy liquid, run till it gets hot the undo the bottom hose a bit so the water starts to come out, at the same time start putting cooler water in the expansion tank then all the bubbles are out of the system, let it cool nicly then remove the rad, hoses etc, put the on floor & use a garden hose to start flushing it through, when all the carp has stopped coming out, do the same to the engine block, take the thermostat out first so that there is free flowing water through the block, then when all crap has finished, reinstall rad, put in decent water with anit freeze, slightly thicker than recomended to compensate for the plain water in the block.
I would look at a recored rad with bigger capacity rather than replacement
Is there anything flocking air flow through the rad ??? FMIC for example
Before getting a new rad why not try flushing out the one you have ??
If the system up with fairy liquid, run till it gets hot the undo the bottom hose a bit so the water starts to come out, at the same time start putting cooler water in the expansion tank then all the bubbles are out of the system, let it cool nicly then remove the rad, hoses etc, put the on floor & use a garden hose to start flushing it through, when all the carp has stopped coming out, do the same to the engine block, take the thermostat out first so that there is free flowing water through the block, then when all crap has finished, reinstall rad, put in decent water with anit freeze, slightly thicker than recomended to compensate for the plain water in the block.
I would look at a recored rad with bigger capacity rather than replacement
21 July 2001, 07:34 PM
#15
It could be a faulty water pump. I have seen in the past where the impeller is spinning on its shaft. When you cane the car with high revs it can't sustain the loading and starts to slip so you get no pumping action. Hence cold water outlet pipe from radiator as its no seeing any flow!
If you have checked for head gaskets and changed the radiator, bled it properly and checked the hoses are on the right way round. (daft question but have you sat 2 identical cars next to each other and checked that?) then i can only think its the water pump.
If you have checked for head gaskets and changed the radiator, bled it properly and checked the hoses are on the right way round. (daft question but have you sat 2 identical cars next to each other and checked that?) then i can only think its the water pump.
21 July 2001, 10:36 PM
#16
I recieved this info from a subaru specialist tonight leigh. Another thought for you.
"We have seen heater matrixs that have been partially blocked and stopped circulation. We usually take off one hose and back fill with gunk then push through with a steam cleaner. Then bleed out the system.
If the matrix is clear the heads must be leaking. The method i use is a cylinder leakage tester."
They have a lot of experience of subaru engine work and know there stuff so worth a try?
"We have seen heater matrixs that have been partially blocked and stopped circulation. We usually take off one hose and back fill with gunk then push through with a steam cleaner. Then bleed out the system.
If the matrix is clear the heads must be leaking. The method i use is a cylinder leakage tester."
They have a lot of experience of subaru engine work and know there stuff so worth a try?
22 July 2001, 11:11 AM
#18
if they do the heater matrix checks and that doesnt clear it then a cylinder leakage test will tell you for sure is the head gaskets are gone. This is a method where you presurise the water system and then leave it a while, if the presure drops and you have no water leaking from hoses/split rad etc then its a leaky head gasket.
Matt and Olly are good guys. I have never dealt with them myself but my rally team has competed against them on many occasions and they always come accross as genuine, decent people. You can tell a lot about people in the heat of a hard fight for a rally win, their true personality shows through in those situations.
Matt and Olly are good guys. I have never dealt with them myself but my rally team has competed against them on many occasions and they always come accross as genuine, decent people. You can tell a lot about people in the heat of a hard fight for a rally win, their true personality shows through in those situations.
22 July 2001, 12:47 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
<B>I recieved this info from a subaru specialist tonight leigh. Another thought for you.
"We have seen heater matrixs that have been partially blocked and stopped circulation. We usually take off one hose and back fill with gunk then push through with a steam cleaner. Then bleed out the system.
If the matrix is clear the heads must be leaking. The method i use is a cylinder leakage tester."
They have a lot of experience of subaru engine work and know there stuff so worth a try?[/quote]
Thanks for that John!
I'm ringing them on monday, so I'll suggest your ideas to them. I assume the system is bled properly, the guys at Roger Clark's have been doing all the experimenting with swapping parts, I'm not too skillful with a spanner! Incidentally, I don't want to sound as though I'm critisising Matt or Ollie Clark, they are always more then helpful, it's just frustrating after a while when you seem to be getting nowhere. They've never come across this problem before, and they have heaps of experience with Subaru engines. Incidentally, they might be able to help with some ideas regarding the 'No. 3 big end' thread. Virtually EVERY time I visit them, and that's a LOT lately, they are rebuilding an engine that has suffered bigend 3 failure. In fact, they have THREE in at the moment. The majority of the ones they see are Sti IV onwards, so maybe high revs is an issue (I believe that version IV's were the first to have the 8k rev limit?) Ollie told me ages ago that they have very few problems with the older models regarding big end failure (up to Sti II).
Not sure if this is of any relevance?
Barge
Once the car starts to get hot, (shortly after you come to a halt after a blast) the fans come on, and even after the car starts to cool off again, which it does eventually (it did on Friday when I last saw it
), the fans continue to blast away, not stopping until you switch the engine off!
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 22 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 22 July 2001).]
<B>I recieved this info from a subaru specialist tonight leigh. Another thought for you.
"We have seen heater matrixs that have been partially blocked and stopped circulation. We usually take off one hose and back fill with gunk then push through with a steam cleaner. Then bleed out the system.
If the matrix is clear the heads must be leaking. The method i use is a cylinder leakage tester."
They have a lot of experience of subaru engine work and know there stuff so worth a try?[/quote]
Thanks for that John!
I'm ringing them on monday, so I'll suggest your ideas to them. I assume the system is bled properly, the guys at Roger Clark's have been doing all the experimenting with swapping parts, I'm not too skillful with a spanner! Incidentally, I don't want to sound as though I'm critisising Matt or Ollie Clark, they are always more then helpful, it's just frustrating after a while when you seem to be getting nowhere. They've never come across this problem before, and they have heaps of experience with Subaru engines. Incidentally, they might be able to help with some ideas regarding the 'No. 3 big end' thread. Virtually EVERY time I visit them, and that's a LOT lately, they are rebuilding an engine that has suffered bigend 3 failure. In fact, they have THREE in at the moment. The majority of the ones they see are Sti IV onwards, so maybe high revs is an issue (I believe that version IV's were the first to have the 8k rev limit?) Ollie told me ages ago that they have very few problems with the older models regarding big end failure (up to Sti II).
Not sure if this is of any relevance?
Barge
Once the car starts to get hot, (shortly after you come to a halt after a blast) the fans come on, and even after the car starts to cool off again, which it does eventually (it did on Friday when I last saw it
), the fans continue to blast away, not stopping until you switch the engine off![This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 22 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 22 July 2001).]
23 July 2001, 04:46 PM
#20
My WRX over-heated 1/7 & GDA sports checked it over, they pressure tested it & a tiny hole in one of the water pipes behind the intercooler was only visible under pressure.
I'm sure that they must have pressure tested the cooling circuit on yours, but it might worth checking again like John states.
Also Graham @ GDA said that if an impreza overheats, often the head gaskets go & normally this would show up as a rise in water temp with increasing boost pressure.
When mine over-heated the gauge soared rapidly on accelerating then dropped back to norm, the radiator was cool to touch and with no real visible signs of steam.
Hope its sorted soon.
Mark
I'm sure that they must have pressure tested the cooling circuit on yours, but it might worth checking again like John states.
Also Graham @ GDA said that if an impreza overheats, often the head gaskets go & normally this would show up as a rise in water temp with increasing boost pressure.
When mine over-heated the gauge soared rapidly on accelerating then dropped back to norm, the radiator was cool to touch and with no real visible signs of steam.
Hope its sorted soon.
Mark
23 July 2001, 10:08 PM
#21
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Thanks for all the replies, peeps! Scoobynet is s great place to share your scooby related problems, eh?
I went to check on my car tonight, and, sadly it looks like it's my head gaskets. Every other avenue has been looked at, so it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and get it done. (Unless I can find someone dopey enough to take it in part-ex this weekend! lol! )
The quote for changing both head gaskets (including all parts, labour, new timing belt, oil and sundries) is £1336.83. Not toooo bad I suppose! Ah, well, where's me credit card!
I went to check on my car tonight, and, sadly it looks like it's my head gaskets. Every other avenue has been looked at, so it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and get it done. (Unless I can find someone dopey enough to take it in part-ex this weekend! lol!
)The quote for changing both head gaskets (including all parts, labour, new timing belt, oil and sundries) is £1336.83. Not toooo bad I suppose! Ah, well, where's me credit card!
24 July 2001, 12:08 PM
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£1300 sounds a bit steep to me . A scooby mechanic did it for me one saturday at his house and only charged me £100 labour . It takes a full day for 1 man . All the parts you should need are 2 cyl head gaskets , £40 each , timing belt , £60 , and exhaust gasket set £20 . All these prices are approx as its a while since I had it done but these were all genuine parts . I would get a few more quotes before you go ahead . Unless there is any bad marking on the head or block there is no need to get them skimmed . My car had the same symptoms as yours but all I needed was 2 new gaskets . It was caused by the car over heating when the radiator housing cracked . I fitted a new radiator supplied by a local aftermarket radiator supplier on an exchange basis . It was the same make as the genuine 'subaru' one at half the price ( £60 ) .
Derek
Derek
24 July 2001, 07:15 PM
#23
GDA sports quoted my a total price of around £500 for both headgaskets, including headskimming etc.
I'd shop around before sending £1330 or find a friendly subaru mechanic looking to earn some extra cash.
Mark
I'd shop around before sending £1330 or find a friendly subaru mechanic looking to earn some extra cash.
Mark
24 July 2001, 07:34 PM
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I'd be so supprised if it was the head gaskets. Have you checked the water pump. I had a similar issue with a Honda, it was the water pump. You may also have some blockage in a coolant passage in the head or block. Changed the radiator so thats not blocked.
Would not be head gasket though. No burning water(white smoke from exhaust)no loss of fluid? I don't think its any gasket. Anyway, if you go with a head gasket change I hope it resolves the issue. Good luck, and keep us updated.
Ken
Would not be head gasket though. No burning water(white smoke from exhaust)no loss of fluid? I don't think its any gasket. Anyway, if you go with a head gasket change I hope it resolves the issue. Good luck, and keep us updated.
Ken
24 July 2001, 07:49 PM
#25
you can have a blown head gasket and not use any water at all.
the symptoms here are clasic head gasket where the fire ring/water jacket has started to fail.
Only under boost does it leak and when that occurs the gasses get into the water and super heat it localy. Like is stated before, if you have checked all the options re external systems and the water pump is OK it will be the head gaskets.
You have to be carefull with this kind of failure. Quite often the radiator gets streched by the high presures. It's very common on cosworths to see the radiators smile as they stretch at the bottom.
the symptoms here are clasic head gasket where the fire ring/water jacket has started to fail.
Only under boost does it leak and when that occurs the gasses get into the water and super heat it localy. Like is stated before, if you have checked all the options re external systems and the water pump is OK it will be the head gaskets.
You have to be carefull with this kind of failure. Quite often the radiator gets streched by the high presures. It's very common on cosworths to see the radiators smile as they stretch at the bottom.
24 July 2001, 09:49 PM
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I had a similar problem to what John describes with a VW Corrado ie temp gauge went up after heavy use(only slightly).It was not using water and ran fine but it kept springing leaks and bursting hoses.It was when the radiator burst that I finally realised it was the head gasket though.
When I removed the radiator it had expanded about 2 inches in the middle with the pressure.
A head skim and a new gasket cured the problem.What had been happening was that combustion gases were leaking into the coolant system overpressurising it but when I slowed down it sealed again.
Something that I don't understand though is that this type of fault would show up on when the antifreeze was tested.For example on my car the antifreeze changed from a nice clean blue colour to a manky green/brown colour due to contamination by the combustion gases.Why didn't it show up when they tested it?.
Incidentally I thought the relief valve in the water bottle cap would have saved the system from to much pressure but when I tested it 3 bars was needed to make it vent,no wonder the radiator popped.
Andy
When I removed the radiator it had expanded about 2 inches in the middle with the pressure.
A head skim and a new gasket cured the problem.What had been happening was that combustion gases were leaking into the coolant system overpressurising it but when I slowed down it sealed again.
Something that I don't understand though is that this type of fault would show up on when the antifreeze was tested.For example on my car the antifreeze changed from a nice clean blue colour to a manky green/brown colour due to contamination by the combustion gases.Why didn't it show up when they tested it?.
Incidentally I thought the relief valve in the water bottle cap would have saved the system from to much pressure but when I tested it 3 bars was needed to make it vent,no wonder the radiator popped.
Andy
25 July 2001, 08:50 PM
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don't mean to blow my own trumpet but
GOD DAMN IM GOOD i said it was head gaskets nigh on a month ago ah well never mind but 1300 quid does sound expensive defo shop around a bit
GOD DAMN IM GOOD i said it was head gaskets nigh on a month ago ah well never mind but 1300 quid does sound expensive defo shop around a bit
26 July 2001, 10:25 AM
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Agree with you there scoobyboy, you did well to spot it.
Mr lawson must be a degree above good though as he picked it up nearly 4 days earlier
[This message has been edited by ptholt (edited 26 July 2001).]
Mr lawson must be a degree above good though as he picked it up nearly 4 days earlier
[This message has been edited by ptholt (edited 26 July 2001).]
26 July 2001, 06:48 PM
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I'll let you know if the head gasket sorts it. Unfortunately they can't do it for a couple of weeks, due to the FOUR scoob engines they are rebuilding at the moment that have had a 'big end no.3 failure'
I'm not going to look elsewhere to get it repaired as, 1) Roger Clark's engine building skills are second to none, IMHO, 2) They've been great so far, having spent many hours trying various parts on my car, and charged me NOTHING! ...and 3) I'm such a dufus that I'd forgotten my car is still under warranty (2 year job, expires in September!), and they've agreed to pay the first £1k towards the repair, and at a specialist of my choice!
I just hope it sorts it...
Unfortunately they can't do it for a couple of weeks, due to the FOUR scoob engines they are rebuilding at the moment that have had a 'big end no.3 failure' I'm not going to look elsewhere to get it repaired as, 1) Roger Clark's engine building skills are second to none, IMHO, 2) They've been great so far, having spent many hours trying various parts on my car, and charged me NOTHING! ...and 3) I'm such a dufus that I'd forgotten my car is still under warranty (2 year job, expires in September!), and they've agreed to pay the first £1k towards the repair, and at a specialist of my choice!
I just hope it sorts it...