What type of FMIC?
18 June 2001, 09:22 PM
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Very hard question, as the only proper way to be able to answer this would be if someone had tried all of them or seen all of them to be able to compare. The two other ways of finding out would be to ring the different suppliers, ask and decide, or from people commenting on the FMIC's they have fitted and then you deciding from their comments. I don't think that anyone could really say that one is the best. It's a tuff one as people in Europe are starting out now with FMIC's. If there were more people from AUS or Asia on this bbs and because they have been into FMIC's for a few years now it would have been easier. There are a few people on the bbs now that have recently fitted FMIC's and it wouldbe interesting to see how they're going with them.
WREXY
WREXY
18 June 2001, 11:16 PM
#6
the lights dont really bother me as I have an sti, and then are covered anyway!!
What will happen to my hks super racing suction kit? i mean can the pipe go around? as looking at those pictures, would be quite tight?
[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 18 June 2001).]
What will happen to my hks super racing suction kit? i mean can the pipe go around? as looking at those pictures, would be quite tight?
[This message has been edited by ChristianR (edited 18 June 2001).]
18 June 2001, 11:21 PM
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I will be posting my full report and dyno results for the Hyperflow system tomorrow all being well.
I went to a dyno today and did runs with the old and new intercoolers, just 10mins apart.
The figures are interesting to say the least.
Watch this space.
Stef.
I went to a dyno today and did runs with the old and new intercoolers, just 10mins apart.
The figures are interesting to say the least.
Watch this space.
Stef.
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19 June 2001, 12:48 AM
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Not sure I agree with that duncan.
Just because 50% of an intercooler is space between the fins doesnt mean that that space is wasted and that the interccoler needs to be twice the size.
If the intercooler was all tubes then no air could pass and it wouldnt cool. If it was all gaps, the air flow past the fins would be to fast and not restricted enough, tehre would be no time for the fins to give up their heat, and not a lot of them trying to lose heat in the first place.
Its another one of those compromises that I mentioned above.
What you are saying about the size of teh opening feeding a heat exchanger is also a valid point, but it depends on the shape of the duct which feeds the rad.
This is covered in depth in Maximum Boost by corky bell. (sorry - to whom it may concern)
If the rad is just exposed to teh air like in the case of our front mounts here, then there isnt a duct as such, so i am not sure what you are saying is as valid here.
I certainly wouldnt put my number plate in front of a well researched front mounted intercooler. Although saying that, I am sure there was confirmation when aps did some testing that the number plate location did not affect the temperatures of the air exiting the intercooler. Despite this, I will be off setting or raising my plate out of the way.
Just because 50% of an intercooler is space between the fins doesnt mean that that space is wasted and that the interccoler needs to be twice the size.
If the intercooler was all tubes then no air could pass and it wouldnt cool. If it was all gaps, the air flow past the fins would be to fast and not restricted enough, tehre would be no time for the fins to give up their heat, and not a lot of them trying to lose heat in the first place.
Its another one of those compromises that I mentioned above.
What you are saying about the size of teh opening feeding a heat exchanger is also a valid point, but it depends on the shape of the duct which feeds the rad.
This is covered in depth in Maximum Boost by corky bell. (sorry - to whom it may concern)
If the rad is just exposed to teh air like in the case of our front mounts here, then there isnt a duct as such, so i am not sure what you are saying is as valid here.
I certainly wouldnt put my number plate in front of a well researched front mounted intercooler. Although saying that, I am sure there was confirmation when aps did some testing that the number plate location did not affect the temperatures of the air exiting the intercooler. Despite this, I will be off setting or raising my plate out of the way.
19 June 2001, 07:50 AM
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My question is this:
After fitting the FMIC, is it possible to mount an Oil Cooler in the place of the old Intercooler?
Karlos
PS - Stef! Where's those Dyno results!
After fitting the FMIC, is it possible to mount an Oil Cooler in the place of the old Intercooler?
Karlos
PS - Stef! Where's those Dyno results!
19 June 2001, 09:39 AM
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A couple of points here that need to be mentioned.
All of this has practically been lifted from a book before anyone says anything.
I dont think there is a best intercooler, as it depends on your priorities. There are several different trade offs relating to intercooler design, and when buildinh one, a compromise position has to be chosen. Different manufacturers choose different positions, and so one product may better suit you than another, depending on your requirements.
Biggest is not necessarily best, look at the wrc thing! it is tiny.
The bigger the intercooler the longer it takes the air to traverse it and therefore the more time it has to give up its heat, but also, the greater the lag it will generate.
The more restrictive the core, again, the more likely the air is to give up its heat, but greater restriction means the turbo has to work harder to over come the pressure drop created by the intercooler.
This means that for every psi coming out of the intercooler, teh turbo would have to work produce more on the input side to overcome it.
This means that the turbo will be working harder and hence heating the air more in the first place. Therefore the cooling advantages of a more restrictive core might be lost.
Then you have to decide how much air you want to flow. Smaller diameter pipework will flow less air but faster, meaning less lag, but flowing less air, means the piping could is more restrictive but bigger diameter means more lag, so which is it?
The only answer is to try and see what suits you the best.
All of this has practically been lifted from a book before anyone says anything.
I dont think there is a best intercooler, as it depends on your priorities. There are several different trade offs relating to intercooler design, and when buildinh one, a compromise position has to be chosen. Different manufacturers choose different positions, and so one product may better suit you than another, depending on your requirements.
Biggest is not necessarily best, look at the wrc thing! it is tiny.
The bigger the intercooler the longer it takes the air to traverse it and therefore the more time it has to give up its heat, but also, the greater the lag it will generate.
The more restrictive the core, again, the more likely the air is to give up its heat, but greater restriction means the turbo has to work harder to over come the pressure drop created by the intercooler.
This means that for every psi coming out of the intercooler, teh turbo would have to work produce more on the input side to overcome it.
This means that the turbo will be working harder and hence heating the air more in the first place. Therefore the cooling advantages of a more restrictive core might be lost.
Then you have to decide how much air you want to flow. Smaller diameter pipework will flow less air but faster, meaning less lag, but flowing less air, means the piping could is more restrictive but bigger diameter means more lag, so which is it?
The only answer is to try and see what suits you the best.
19 June 2001, 11:31 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BugEyed:
<B>David
In terms of worrying about bloking airflow to the fmic - don't. The effective area of the airflow through a radiator is less than 50% of it's overall area (don't forget the area of metal and the space required for the air from the turbo to go through). Hence, the number plate won't be a problem.
Duncan
PS Stef, where are those dyno results![/quote]
Duncan, I am a bit confused by what you are saying here. Can you clarify it a bit please?
<B>David
In terms of worrying about bloking airflow to the fmic - don't. The effective area of the airflow through a radiator is less than 50% of it's overall area (don't forget the area of metal and the space required for the air from the turbo to go through). Hence, the number plate won't be a problem.
Duncan
PS Stef, where are those dyno results!
[/quote]Duncan, I am a bit confused by what you are saying here. Can you clarify it a bit please?
19 June 2001, 11:48 AM
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Adam
The amount of cooling air (the stuff outside, not the stuff from the turbo) that will pass through any radiator (fmic, water radiator, air con radiator, external oil cooler) is limited by the size of the gaps between the plates / fins of the radiator. If you try to look through the radiator, you will see that these gaps make up considerably less than 50% of the overall size. Any more air than can get through the gaps in the radiator is wasted - it just flows past the radiator and causes aerodynamic drag in the engine bay.
Looking at the various kits, even the hyperflow (which claims to be the biggest) is nowhere near twice the size of the opening in the front spoiler of the Scooby. Hence, some of the air flowing through the spoiler is not able to pass through the intercooler and is "wasted". David doesn't need to worry if the number plate masks part of the hole in the spoiler.
If you look at well developed racing cars (F1, LeMans prototypes), you will see that the hole feeding air to the radiator is considerably smaller than the radiator itself.
Duncan
The amount of cooling air (the stuff outside, not the stuff from the turbo) that will pass through any radiator (fmic, water radiator, air con radiator, external oil cooler) is limited by the size of the gaps between the plates / fins of the radiator. If you try to look through the radiator, you will see that these gaps make up considerably less than 50% of the overall size. Any more air than can get through the gaps in the radiator is wasted - it just flows past the radiator and causes aerodynamic drag in the engine bay.
Looking at the various kits, even the hyperflow (which claims to be the biggest) is nowhere near twice the size of the opening in the front spoiler of the Scooby. Hence, some of the air flowing through the spoiler is not able to pass through the intercooler and is "wasted". David doesn't need to worry if the number plate masks part of the hole in the spoiler.
If you look at well developed racing cars (F1, LeMans prototypes), you will see that the hole feeding air to the radiator is considerably smaller than the radiator itself.
Duncan
19 June 2001, 02:52 PM
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Adam
I guess that we had best agree to differ!
As an aside, if you need an air intake to an intercooler that is the same size as the intercooler, then a big increase in the performance of the standard top mounted intercooler could be gained from increasing the size of the bonnet scoop. Only problem would be that some short asses wouldn't be able to see around it.
Duncan
I guess that we had best agree to differ!
As an aside, if you need an air intake to an intercooler that is the same size as the intercooler, then a big increase in the performance of the standard top mounted intercooler could be gained from increasing the size of the bonnet scoop. Only problem would be that some short asses wouldn't be able to see around it.
Duncan
19 June 2001, 04:06 PM
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duncan, I don't agree to that! (simpsonism )
What I was saying is that when you have a specific duct and lamina flow then the opening for the bonnet scoop doesnt need to be the same size as the intercooler.
As I said before, I read this in Maximum Boost.
Some people dont agree with this, but it makes sense and is easy to read. This doesn't of course make it gospel.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 19 June 2001).]
(simpsonism )What I was saying is that when you have a specific duct and lamina flow then the opening for the bonnet scoop doesnt need to be the same size as the intercooler.
As I said before, I read this in Maximum Boost.
Some people dont agree with this, but it makes sense and is easy to read. This doesn't of course make it gospel.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 19 June 2001).]
19 June 2001, 05:17 PM
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Adam
Apologies for missing your point - does that make me Homer?
I guess that the flow into the intercooler is near enough lamina, but as you say the ducting isn't exactly a tight fit. Putting the number plate in front of the intercooler, and in line with it, will both reduce the effective size of the duct, and change the airflow from being laminar. However, I still do not believe that this will make a practical difference on the Scooby given the relative size of the duct.
Regardless, as I said before, I think it looks better if you move the number plate.
Duncan
Apologies for missing your point - does that make me Homer?
I guess that the flow into the intercooler is near enough lamina, but as you say the ducting isn't exactly a tight fit. Putting the number plate in front of the intercooler, and in line with it, will both reduce the effective size of the duct, and change the airflow from being laminar. However, I still do not believe that this will make a practical difference on the Scooby given the relative size of the duct.
Regardless, as I said before, I think it looks better if you move the number plate.
Duncan
19 June 2001, 06:30 PM
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hi guys
adam and duncan i think you are both right in a way. what is adam talking about is if you are pushing the performance envelope to the limit. then every thing counts. but what is duncan talking about is correct as you will never have to reach that limit on a subaru, as most of these intercooler are designed to run more than 25psi which is around 1.6-1.7 bar.
one thing you have to take into consideration is what you are really wanting to achieve. going for something just because it is the biggest is a bit pontless if you are running small boost really ? no need all you are doing is increasing the lag. so it all depends on what are you planning to do and what is the goals for the car. for me i am not going to run more than 1.3 bar for now and maybe 1.5-1.6 if i go for a rebuild.
there is a lot of intercoolers out there some are more specialised than others. i think the APS is good for the design and price so far. but once i have got mine fitted next week hopefully i will tell if it is good or crap. i should have dyno's plus data logging with the link to see the boost respose and see the increase inlag. also i should be able to see if i will be able to run more advance on the top end or not which mean more torque or not.
the vedict is still out there.
adam and duncan i think you are both right in a way. what is adam talking about is if you are pushing the performance envelope to the limit. then every thing counts. but what is duncan talking about is correct as you will never have to reach that limit on a subaru, as most of these intercooler are designed to run more than 25psi which is around 1.6-1.7 bar.
one thing you have to take into consideration is what you are really wanting to achieve. going for something just because it is the biggest is a bit pontless if you are running small boost really ? no need all you are doing is increasing the lag. so it all depends on what are you planning to do and what is the goals for the car. for me i am not going to run more than 1.3 bar for now and maybe 1.5-1.6 if i go for a rebuild.
there is a lot of intercoolers out there some are more specialised than others. i think the APS is good for the design and price so far. but once i have got mine fitted next week hopefully i will tell if it is good or crap. i should have dyno's plus data logging with the link to see the boost respose and see the increase inlag. also i should be able to see if i will be able to run more advance on the top end or not which mean more torque or not.
the vedict is still out there.
19 June 2001, 10:52 PM
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I can say about the Hyperflow as I have driven Stefs car with it before and after, no doubt Stef will post a detailed account of the gains himself.
When I drove the car last Saturday, in all honestly it didn't feel any different to what it was like before. There is more lag, and a hessitation when changing gear due to the Lag and the pipes refilling with air. The Rolling Road figured Stef has acheived show some gain but I don't think the Hyperflow had any significant gains as to what was expected from it in my opinion.
After driving Stefs car I also drove Rich Samphire's Turbo which is identical in all ways to Stefs car except for the Intercooler, Rich's car felt alot more progressive and quicker to me and the near zero effect of lag was a great pleasure. Stefs car also produced a large Over Boost problem at Donington last night which he thinks is caused by fluid in one of the intercooler pipes but I think that is a minor problem which he is fixing.
The Hyperflow looks nice as its BIG! but all that cutting and money on something that looks good is about it im my opinion, hoses could do with some re-thinking as they look a little cheap and the hoses do point out of the bottom of the car quite alot.
I think after driving these 2 similar cars, size isn't everything I think with Intercoolers. My honest opinion would be think very long and hard before purchasing an intercooler as from what ive seen and felt, size isn't everything. There are many makes of Coolers ie, BPM,AVO,APS,HKS,Blitz etc etc so looks are not limited to one as neither is the performance.
Please note this is my independent opinion on driving 2 very similar cars one after another and is not a dig at any manufacturers or persons.
Harj...
When I drove the car last Saturday, in all honestly it didn't feel any different to what it was like before. There is more lag, and a hessitation when changing gear due to the Lag and the pipes refilling with air. The Rolling Road figured Stef has acheived show some gain but I don't think the Hyperflow had any significant gains as to what was expected from it in my opinion.
After driving Stefs car I also drove Rich Samphire's Turbo which is identical in all ways to Stefs car except for the Intercooler, Rich's car felt alot more progressive and quicker to me and the near zero effect of lag was a great pleasure. Stefs car also produced a large Over Boost problem at Donington last night which he thinks is caused by fluid in one of the intercooler pipes but I think that is a minor problem which he is fixing.
The Hyperflow looks nice as its BIG! but all that cutting and money on something that looks good is about it im my opinion, hoses could do with some re-thinking as they look a little cheap and the hoses do point out of the bottom of the car quite alot.
I think after driving these 2 similar cars, size isn't everything I think with Intercoolers. My honest opinion would be think very long and hard before purchasing an intercooler as from what ive seen and felt, size isn't everything. There are many makes of Coolers ie, BPM,AVO,APS,HKS,Blitz etc etc so looks are not limited to one as neither is the performance.
Please note this is my independent opinion on driving 2 very similar cars one after another and is not a dig at any manufacturers or persons.
Harj...
20 June 2001, 12:42 AM
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Incidentally, Stef,
after your off at castle combe, you said you would be trying a new driving style, relating to your using slicks now.
How did you get on with them?
Not meaning to take this thread too far from front mounts, just wondered what you thought.
I am looking to put slicks on now as I have a second set of wheels, but dont want to drive beyond my own limits. Did you find yourself pushing the car that much harder because you could, or did you just drive more consistently at the same pace that you used to.
The reason I want to do this is because, I dont want to waste road tyres, and also I get annoyed with the tired going off after four or five laps.
after your off at castle combe, you said you would be trying a new driving style, relating to your using slicks now.
How did you get on with them?
Not meaning to take this thread too far from front mounts, just wondered what you thought.
I am looking to put slicks on now as I have a second set of wheels, but dont want to drive beyond my own limits. Did you find yourself pushing the car that much harder because you could, or did you just drive more consistently at the same pace that you used to.
The reason I want to do this is because, I dont want to waste road tyres, and also I get annoyed with the tired going off after four or five laps.
20 June 2001, 01:16 AM
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Mark.
They have a very powerful small fan which was used to cool the top mount using a hose.
This same fan was also used to cool the front mount but without the hose.
They did run a larger but less powerful fan as well, but I guess this extra cooling is relative to the extra air that the fmic can take on the road?
Stef.
They have a very powerful small fan which was used to cool the top mount using a hose.
This same fan was also used to cool the front mount but without the hose.
They did run a larger but less powerful fan as well, but I guess this extra cooling is relative to the extra air that the fmic can take on the road?
Stef.