Sieze

My big end bearing just went at 140 in my STI RA. It was standard spec (minus cat) and I was only at *** for approx 5 seconds before slowing. The oil was 3500 miles old and the engine 46000 miles. It is being rebuilt over the next 2 weeks . Any advice re: oil coolers (I hear they can help prevent this). My engine people say It won't make any difference and that subaru engines are weak re. the no 3 big end bearing. I need some advice or I will nerver feel happy to drive my car fast again.

[This message has been edited by Sieze (edited 26 August 2001).]

WREXY

Sorry to hear that Sieze. You've certainly scared me from driving fast too. I'd like to know the cause of this too. Very worrying indeed.

Andrew Timmins

Sorry to hear about your engine problems.

Could you tell us what oil you had in the car at the time please?

Squizz

Sorry to hear that Sieze...

Erm, I take it you were on the Autobahn, eh?

When your car is back in one piece, how do you fancy visiting one of the local meets (See Midlands section)?

NDT

I had no.3 bearing go a year ago on my STi4(after a big thrash down some back lanes....)

opinion from several engine builders was that this is a common fault.

Roger Clark Motorsport rebuilt the engine. they did a couple of mods to the crank, which they reckon increases oil flow to bearing 3; they said that the problem doesn't normally happen again after a rebuild.

Autosportif also said it doesn't normally happen again after a rebuild - they reckon it's just poor build quality (dirt or poor manufacturing?) or a dodgy batch of bearings.

Whatever - I felt exactly the same as you - v pissed off that it went in the first place (JD Power my a*se) but it also completely destroyed my confidence in the car.

What's the point in a fast car if you can't drive it fast?

WREXY

Does the common fault apply to the UK spec turbo's too?

R19KET

Who's rebuilding the engine for you ?

Mark.

Sieze

Midland Impreza are rebuilding the Engine. Estimate at present is no more than £1000 inc. secondhand STi crank and complete bearing rebuild (proper estimate due when engine is opened up). I was using a silkolene semi-synthetic that Midland impreza use. I want to come to the Midland meets but I am always karting on that weekend. It broke on the A34 near Newbury while catching a Alfa GTV, strangely enough while slowing down (at approx ***mph). Harj's 22B he was driving blew while slowing, quite why I don't know. By the way MI tell me they now spend 3 of the five days of the week rebuilding impreza engines (I asked them if it was a common problem). Must go as I am going to Le Mans tomorrow.


[This message has been edited by Sieze (edited 26 August 2001).]

Andrew Timmins

Thanks for the oil info Sieze.

I've been wondering for some time whether there was any sort of pattern that has emerged regarding engine failures and the type(synthetic or mineral) and also the viscosity of the oil used.

What oils were other people Such as Stef, Harj, Anders etc using when their engines failed? If there is any kind of pattern to be found it would benefit us all. Please post any details if you think you can shed any light on this far to frequent problem.

WREXY

I have a question again. Does the big end bearing go all of a sudden or does it come on gradually. For example would it make a noise at idle even say a few days or weeks or even months before it actually fails? I ask cause many many years ago when I had a Ford on start up for about 2 or 3 seconds there was a knocking noise and was told "That's your big end bearings son". Dont know how true it was and I never found out as I built a different engine for it. Any answers would be appreciated

WREXY.

rsquire

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Harj's 22B he was driving blew while slowing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it's my 22B. #3 big end went. I've even seen this failure on non turbo engines here in the states. Most people that I've talked with seem to consider the shared oilfeed between #3 & #4 as being the problem. Although I have nothing to fully substantiate that.

Richard

WREXY

Hi Richard sorry to hear that m8, when did it happen? Must be an even worse feeling not being with the car when it happened. Good luck with it m8.

WREXY.

[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 14 June 2001).]

Tony Quinn

Sieze, I'm really sorry to hear about your problem, the timing sucks!

Wrexy, MY99 UK Spec car mine from new. No modifications other than exhaust. Not a hint of a problem when I turned it off at night having allowed plenty of time to cool down. Next morning it was gone on startup. About 20,000 miles on the engine, oil about 500m old. Oil was whatever the Subaru dealers use.

rsquire

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Must be an even worse feeling not being with the car when it happened<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really... I was right behind it. Harj was gutted and it wasn't even his fault. Simply one of those things..

One thing I do know about my 22 is that it has been meticulously looked after.

I simply put it down to bad design on behalf of Subaru... Maybe a "Class Action" lawsuit for 500 Billion for emotional distress is in order

I don't think that it has anything to do with the oils used in the cars..

I run my USA Impreza 2.5 on Castrol Syntec without problems, but have seen engines go both here in the USA and the UK on far more expensive and "higher quality oils..

So I don't think the type of oil is the issue.

rather that there is a fundamental flaw in the design of the oil feed to the bottom end of the Subaru flat four..

I've seen this "piston slap" on N/A cars here as well as Turbo cars.

Richard

WREXY

Richard I understand. Just thought you may have been in the States when it happened. Harj seems a very responsible person from what I have read of his posts and from comments from others. Didn't even cross my mind that he would be at fault, as with so many cases of the big ends going, I also put it down to bad design. Anybody can be driving when it can happen. Even with nobody driving from Tony's case above.

Tony very sorry to hear that. All I can say is that's horendous, it's not vey good news and very very worrying, especialy nowing you can start it in the morning and have this problem.

WREXY.

NDT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sieze:
<B>Midland Impreza are rebuilding the Engine. Estimate at present is no more than £1000 inc. secondhand STi crank and complete bearing rebuild (proper estimate due when engine is opened up). I was using a silkolene semi-synthetic that Midland impreza use. I want to come to the Midland meets but I am always karting on that weekend. It broke on the A34 near Newbury while catching a Alfa GTV, strangely enough while slowing down (at approx 115mph). Harj's 22B he was driving blew while slowing, quite why I don't know. By the way MI tell me they now spend 3 of the five days of the week rebuilding impreza engines (I asked them if it was a common problem). Must go as I am going to Le Mans tomorrow. [/quote]

mine was on semi-synth oil as well....
there's a reason why it went while slowing down.
the inertial load (i.e. load due to accelerating and decelerating the conrod and piston) on the bearings is much bigger than the load due to firing.
the firing load acts against the inertial load.
when you're slowing down, firing load is reduced, so total load on the bearing increases, rather than decreases.
Inertial loading on the bearing goes up with the square of the engine speed....so when we use high engine speeds we're subjecting the bearings to much higher loads than normal, for not much performance gain (on my STi there's not much gain from ever going over 6000rpm,but redline's at 7850?).

sounds like a seriously cheap rebuild...you obviously didn't trash pistons etc the way I did...

btw, I'm jealous - every year I say I'm goingto LeMans, then never get around toorganising it......

NDT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by WREXY:
<B>I have a question again. Does the big end bearing go all of a sudden or does it come on gradually. For example would it make a noise at idle even say a few days or weeks or even months before it actually fails? I ask cause many many years ago when I had a Ford on start up for about 2 or 3 seconds there was a knocking noise and was told "That's your big end bearings son". Dont know how true it was and I never found out as I built a different engine for it. Any answers would be appreciated

WREXY.[/quote]

mine was totally without warning.
but I was giving it death at the time - on old Ford engines etc I think it was a wear related thing - old bearings gradually wearing down,
on Imprezas it seems to be more a case of sudden failure due to oil getting far too hot on that bearing.


[This message has been edited by NDT (edited 14 June 2001).]

rsquire

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>sounds like a seriously cheap rebuild<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeap

I'd be prepared for a bill around 3 times that...

Richard

[This message has been edited by rsquire (edited 14 June 2001).]

WREXY

Thanks for answering my question NDT.

rovo

Spoke to Pete Croney a couple of weeks ago when he was on a visit in Holland. Pete told me that to his experience the seizing of the bearings was related to high rpm's (close to 7000 rpm), leaning out on the fuel (certain cilinder more than others) and resulting detonation which leads to "braking" the oil film of the bearing. To his opinion it was not related to oil quality (at least when using a decent oil quality) or cooling.

WREXY

Very interesting Rovo. Thanks for sharing Pete Croney's information with us. Sounds like a decent explanation of the cause.

WREXY.

Matty B

Hiya Sieze
looks like another local scooby is of the road for a while - my 93 WRX has a potential engine rebuild looming too. This is no. 4 cylinder that appears to have bore scars

You sure that the engine rebiuld your having will be value for money - Autosporif quoted me £2.5 - £3k.

Matthew

PS hope to see you at a meet after we've been sorted out, eh?

stevencotton

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scoobyboy:
before you lot start to diss scooby engines it seems that a lot of you have the older type scooby engine which had a technical bulletin issued<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't suppose anyone has a copy of, or URL to, that bulletin?

Steve.

R19KET

Scoobyboy,

Very interesting. This debate has been going on, ever since I've been on the bbs (2yrs) and you're the only one to mention this.

It's a shame that the likes of Mike Wood, and the rest of the other official Subaru rep's, haven't bothered to point this out.

The fact remains, that even if all the failures are due to a poor manufacturing process/quality control, it's not practical for all the owners of the susspect cars to strip, and check/resolve the problem.

If your statement is correct, owners are more than entitled to "DISS" the engine, Subaru, IM, and all the dealers who have been keeping the information from us

Can you substanciate your claim, and exactly what cars are at risk.

Mark.

NDT

agree with Mark.

It's fundamentally poor engineering to map engines for 280bhp (talking about STis) with a rev limit at almost 8k rpm, when either the design or the manufacturing quality isn't up to it.

I bought a Subaru for performance with reliability; it hasn't delivered, as I haven't had the level of bullet-proof reliability I wanted.
For a brand that's built around reliability (with performance) that's not good.

So if I feel like dissing Subaru engines, I will.

[This message has been edited by NDT (edited 15 June 2001).]

scoobyboy

before you lot start to diss scooby engines it seems that a lot of you have the older type scooby engine which had a technical bulletin issued about an oil way just behind the oil pump which was not drilled out and cleared of swarf which caused the pump to blow oil out of the seals and could cause a lack of oil to big end bearings.

scoobyboy

i'll look in the files and see what i can find out

nitro

Seiz
The first thing is GOOD oil.
The ONLY oil i use is BEL-Ray 21st century
20w50 and i change it every 20000 k's its done 200,000 now.
In one of my engines that blew up V8 chevy the conrod broke it pounded the bearing out of the conrod BUT the crank was not marked.
Next choice add some NITROUS FORMULA
OIL ADDITIVE !!!!!!! NOW thats when you WILL be impressed!!!!!!!

R19KET

Nitro,

A good quality oil is important, as is regular oil changes (we have to change ours a little more often than 20000K's !!)

BUT: Can you explain the relevance of plugging your "oil additive", on a thread that has now been informed of a possible "manufacturing/quality control fault"..............

Maybe we can start a more appropriate thread on the merrits of "oil additives" !!!!!

Mark.

rsquire

I wasn't DISS ing the Subaru engine at all.

Only stating that there does seem to be an issue with the #3 big end bearing. Whether that is a design problem or a maunfacturing problem is IMHO irrelevant, the end result is the same.

Anyway better news on mine.. Harj picked her up from C&K today and she sounded Bloody Magnificent when I was speaking to him.

Good things to come out of this:

1. the turbo vanes were showing some small stress marks so a new Turbo was fitted. Cheaper than doing it later.

2. There was sign of very old det in the engine from back when it was running the stock ECU and we discovered there was a minor det problem.

So major cudeos to Bob Rawle and his mapping and knowledge of the LINK.

NICE ONE BOB


Richard