NITO

Just had my UKMY98 wagon (with std ecu and internals) rolling roaded at PE.
Result;

326bhp@6800rpm and 275 LBS/FT@6000rpm

Modifications
HKS De-cat Frontpipe
HKS SuperDrager System
HKS Electronic Boost controller@1.15bar peak
HKS S Type FMIC
HKS GT Sports Turbine
ECU-standard!

Select monitor showed no faults. air/fuel ratio was 12.00-12.5 :1

2 runs were carried out both showing consistent near identical results.

Inlet temps due to heat soak 30 degrees.

In short above results showed the car was running safely and producing as much power as tuned STi3RA's.

Needless to say I'm extremely chuffed! Results will be on the dyno page shortly!

Nito
Last run was carried out with all of the above mods except for the front mount and the HKS turbine. Result was 286bhp and 251 LBS/ft torque then. So 40bhp extra for the above new mods.

RB5SCOTT

are you sure that was'nt "the yellow brick road" that you got your car tested on :d

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

So that will be about 280bhp on PowerStations rollers will it???

mikeesingh

iTrader: (3)

why are the figures for PE & Powerstation different??

& which one is correct?

mikee

AndrewC

Three cheers for HKS.

Now who sells this kit in the UK ?

AndrewC...MY98 Wagon with less than 326BHP

Rich_R

Figures aside - Nito took me for a short spin outside Donno yesterday. Can't remember my exact words but something along the lines of: "F*****************G Hell"

When the power comes on - it is awesome

Hope it stays together

Rich.

NITO

Han Solo voice "Don't worry, She'll hold together...will you baby...hold together!"

I'm confident it will. Boost is a meagre 1.15bar by many peoples standards! Fuelling and ignition timing is perfectly safe and the fmic coupled with the larger turbine ensures that temperatures are kept well down. Intake temps are pretty much the same as ambients, 2-3degrees higher from what I've seen so far (temp senders only been there a few days) but I'm still experimenting with the inlet temp sender.

And here's what you've all been waiting for...you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk!!


Nito

Butty

iTrader: (2)

A general question on rolling road sessions, not the output of this test..
Is it true that the R-R will measure power at wheels and back calculates engine output given a percentage loss in transmission & tyres etc?
If so, are there published figures for losses for each manufacturer/ model or is it down to the operator from "experience".
My Audi S2 came out with engine output of 285 bhp but I could never find any mods done to it. The operator assumed a loss percentage of 33%. I had heard that the Audi 4x4 Torsen system was efficient and losses should have been nearer 20%. This would put the output nearer to 230/240 bhp which is standard.
Any views?

NITO

Butty,

I spoke to PE about this. Transmission losses and drag are measured on PE's rollers from over run or something. I can't quite remember the full details as he went quite technical but the gist was that transmission losses are measured by the dyno at some point during the test so that conversion to flywheel is accurate. Mine was about 220 or just under power at the wheels figure.

I also spoke to them about the differences between their figures and Powerstations. PE constantly measure std cars at the manufaturer bhp claims. ie standard escort cossies consistently make 225bhpish on their rollers just like fiesta turbos etc make around the 130 mark. It seems to be only Subarus where they clock std ones at 225-230ish. I for one don't think this is way out as the scoob always feels like it's got more than 208bhp. In contrast PS seem to have clocked some scoobs as low as 201bhp (for the 214bhp model)which is also plausible as some later cars have overboost restrictors in anyway!!

Power figures between the two rolling roads seems to be 20-30bhp on average. As long as cars are compared on the same rollers then comparisons can be drawn. All RR's will make different figures than others, apparently PTS figures are even higher than PE. I can't say if there is any right or wrong just different readings, the important thing is that these readings are always consistent which they seem to be.

Nito

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Nito,

Got to PTS, so you can post <B>"MY98UK Wagon makes 350bhp!!!"</B>



Andy

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Nito,
Its all coming back to me now...
During the test, the clutch was dipped and the guy said something about the stored energy in the RR was feeding back into the unconnected transmission - but it was all too technical for me.
Anyone explain it to me in simple fashion please??
Nick

NITO

lol@Andy!

Butty..when the clutch is dipped the rollers are not being turned by engine power so they can measure the resistance of the transmission, perhaps the energy of the momentum of the wheels turning or maybe the deceleration/resistance offered to the rollers. -or something!

Nito

Steve vRS

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NITO:
<B>

plausible as some later cars have overboost restrictors in anyway!!


[/quote]

What MY cars have this restrictor? Can it be removed?

Steve

[This message has been edited by Steve Sherwen (edited 19 February 2001).]

Hoppy

Nito. Saw your car yesterday. Very nice, M8, inside and out. Your getaway style impressed my son big time!

But when it comes to talking the talk and walking the walk... Why weren't you out on the track then!!?? Come to think of it, why were there dozens of Scoobs sat in the car park, but not on the track?

Drive all the way to Donington, stand for hours in the freezing cold watching everyone else having fun. Not my idea of a great day out!

Richard Hopkins

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

By the time Nito decided to go out, there was only an hour and half left (which later turned into an hour)

Even Nito couldn't justify paying £50 for an hour of track time!!!

Andy

logiclee

Richard,

Other financial commitments mean I can only do a couple of days a year on track.

Track fees, tyres, brakes, fuel, insurance, oil change = £400 to £800 per day

Still enjoy the day out, meet some people, have a few rides etc.

Lee

Stef

Nito.
Mad figures!!!
Despite PE's generosity, I guess it still equates to a genuine 300ish bhp, which for a UK car is mental really. How the hell do the internals hold up with that power though? And what is the difference with your turbo? With a larger turbo, a FMIC and a std ecu there must be a fair amount of lag? I would have liked to go out in it yesterday, but didn't know that was you beaming when you told me the figures!
How are you so confident the car can take it? Mine had trouble coping with 235bhp!!!
Oh, and the figures at PTS aren't necessarily higher than PE, but they are fairly inconsistent. My car got 235bhp & 235lb/ft at PTS before I fitted my PPP ecu. At PE the car got 267bhp & 235lb/ft.
I have run the car at PTS with the PPP, but it got 274bhp & 306lb/ft!!!!
I will soon be running it at PE to get another comparison.

Stef.

NITO

Hoppy, cheers m8,

I didn't go out on track coz that Stef bloke charges £50 an hour almost as bad as main dealers!! To be fair he did tell me to speak to him after lunch but still it would have only been 2.5hrs and then I was tightly strapped in Doc Jocks wagon for about 45minutes I didn't get to Dono until quite late and after a blast with Doc Jock I was itching to get out on track but my financial manager with help from Andy's financial advisor wouldn't let me!! Andy even offered to pay half what a top bloke! Plus I was on my 18's with brand new tyres so I didn't fancy ripping them up and my AP discs have some rather large cracks so all things were pointing against it!

Stef,
If you like I can put up the comparative graphs from the last 286bhp run so you can see the difference in lag. It's quite interesting as last time was with boost controller 1.15bar exhaust and induction. Lag isn't as much as you would expect. The fmic doesn't give much extra lag at all with my setup as the boost controller compensates for pressure loss to some degree. The larger turbo, being an hks/garrett jobbie is plain bonkers it spools up very quickly for it's size being a roller needle ball bearing cartridge thingy!!

I'm confident the car can take it as there is no knocking whatsoever, the fuelling is fine all the way to the redline and everything else is as it should be. I'll be fitting an egt and fuel pressure gauge shortly too. It's done 48k miles so far without any problems yet touch wood! If I do have probs I'm sure it'll be down to normal wear and tear. Remember I'm still only running 1.15bar of boost and there are no damaging sudden peaks of overboost as the boost controller controls boost so efficiently. My std ecu even has the fuel cut still active and it's never cut in since using the boost controller. Also my inlet temps are probably much lower than even standard scoobs thanks largely to the fmic and larger turbo.

Steve,
restrictors are fitted to any MY97 cars onwards that have suffered from overboost. My97 and 98 cars have them in the vacuum hose that comes of the induction kit, it's a little brass piece with a small hole in it. While MY99/00 cars have them elsewhere! If you rig up a boost gauge and you're only seeing 0.7-0.85bar peak then chances are there is one fitted.

Nito

Danny Fisher

I need to get down to PE then! It will be interesting to see what I get.

Dan

NITO

Danny,

That's if they don't turn around and run

Okay, here are the comparisons for this run and my last one. This graph is for bhp. Last time mods were boost controller@1.15, exhaust/downpipe and induction all hks. Power was 286bhp and torque 251 LBS/FT

This time as above but with turbine and fmic. 326bhp and 275LBS/FT. You'll notice that there's a little less bottom end compared to the last run (dotted line) but there is a lot more further up.



Below is the torque comparison between the two runs. The other run was carried out virtually exactly a year ago to the day so similar ambient temps. You can see the extra lag as there is a loss of bottom end torque compared to the last run but again it's gained it up top. Lag has only increased by 250-500 rpm or so though so not as much as you would imagine!


Nito

Chins

Nito

Are you going to come to the Rolling Road day on the 14th April at PE and run it against the STI's etc. Surely you want to go for most powerfull car on the day ?

Jonathan

steve McCulloch

Nito and Danny Fisher

So Powerengineering is the place I should go to be cheered up.

I doubt you would get 280hp with those mods at PStation. Not on 1.15bar of boost. Mine runs up to 1.4 bar held with a modded VF22 and a full BPM System and mapped to run on RON 99 - so lots more ignition advance

I get about 277 at PS! (321BHP at Well Lane)
But mine has a cat! - perhaps removing the Cat will give me a 20bhp gain - I can dream I suppose!

Danny Fisher

Nito, why would they run when I turn up?

Steve, yes please take a trip down to PE. It's always good to see a scoob produce some 'GREAT' figures!

Maybe it's time for another rolling road meet!

Dan

NITO

Danny,

Your reputation preceeds you Just kidding!

Chins(Jonathan)..may do I'll look into it closer to the time, Steve..bring it on, I'm sure without the cat you'd gain quite a bit, particularly with the larger turbo!

Nito

AndyMc

Hi Nito

I can understand why your car is making so much power.When my MY98 was suffering from overboost the boost was running 3-4 psi higher than standard and this seemed to give a far bigger increase in performance than I would have expected.My car was still strangled at the top end though by the small Turbo and standard restrictive intercooler and piping.
You have removed these restrictions as well as reduced the inlet temps.The bigger turbo will also have reduced the back pressure in the exhaust headers before the turbo so you will be getting less contamination of the new charge from the previous combustion cycle.
All these things improve the breathing and reduce the chance of detonation.

You also seem to have disproven the commonly held belief that upping the boost pressure on a standard car (to just below the boost cut)will result in engine damage because the standard fuel and ignition map does not extend that far.I have never believed this theory.I just don't believe Subaru would only map upto say 14 psi and then set the cut at 17-18 psi.The cut will be set at the end of the map surely.

Having said all that don't think that just because your car is well protected from detonation and the boost is relativly low that your car will necessarily be reliable.

People often talk about boost as though 'x' bars of boost is safe but 'y' is not.It is nowhere near as simple as this.

For example the 1.15 bars on your car may be equivalent of 1.3 on another car due to the extra density from your cooler inlet temps.

If you comare your car to standard it is making more power and maintains that power to higher revs.
The extra power comes from the higher pressure that the burnt gasses are exerting on the piston.The only way these gasses can be at a higher pressure is if they are at a higher temperature as temp = pressure.Just imagine the job your pistons now have.They have to carry a greater load due to the higher pressures,they also will be running at a higher temperature and they are also doing all this under higher inertial loads due to the revs where the best power is available.If you also remember that these forces rise exponentially with engine speed then you should see just what you are asking of your engine.

It may well be that the engine is perfectly capable of holding together at this power level and that it is det that has caused the engine failures seen in modified UK and Euro cars.

Remember you are asking a standard engine in a car that only cost 20K (which includes a complicated 4wd system) to make over 140hp/litre.Have a look through the back of EVO mag and see how many cars there are that do this and see how much they cost.

Hope I haven't put you off but maybe I will make you think twice the next time you decide to go for a top speed run etc

Andy

PS I have just re-read this and it seems quite negative.It was not meant to be.I just wanted to give people a bit of an insight into what they are doing when they modify their cars.I think a lot of people don't fully understand the risks they are taking.

Conservative Andy

[This message has been edited by AndyMc (edited 19 February 2001).]

NITO

Hi Andy,

You're absolutely right, people should take more care modifying their cars as boost figures seem to get bandied about the bbs and then inflated giving a newbie the impression that it's safe to run these boost levels. I've thought very carefully about all the mods I've done to my car and believe it or not I am very conservative which is why I'm still only running 1.15bar and always have done.

I've always worked on the principal that the safety cut on the MY98 model is approx at 1.2-1.25 bar. Therefore IMHO the map is safe to run at this level. My car originally suffered overboost to 1.35bar on the standard solenoid. So I put the evc in and problem sorted. I've run this at 1.15bar right from the beginning about 5k miles. Car now has almost 50K on the clock so I haven't had any problems running the std turbo, intercooler and ecu at this boost pressure.
I always run on super and in the event I can't find any I put the boost at 0.95bar as the controller has a programmable high/low boost setting accesed by the press of a button. The select monitor has been plugged in numerous times and fuelling was checked on a few previous runs, once in the middle of summer and once in winter. There have never been any knock codes on the select monitor and fuelling was always running typically rich. (-although each car should be checked individually on a RR as this may not always be the case)

A few months back I fitted the FMIC which meant that the evc was self compensating for pressure drop as lag was barely perceptible and there was quite a bit more oomph up top. I was very happy with this setup but was worried that the std turbo was being forced to work too hard to self compensate for pressure drop (ie it was actually working much harder to maintain 1.15bar at the manifold through all the pipework of the fmic) and also concerned about higher temps resulting from the turbo overworking. Apart from this the car was a rocket and very nicely balanced power. I then changed for the larger turbo which is massive by comparison. Lag meant that boost started to build about 500rpm later but over 4k rpm it was just mad. I kept the evc running at 1.15bar on the basis that although it's a larger turbine and therefore probably more air is being pushed through, the charge temps were much much cooler both as a result of the fmic and understressed turbo, plus as you say the larger turbo means less restriction for the waste gasses.

Although my car isn't knocking/detting and fuelling is good you're right in that it doesn't mean the car will be 100% reliable. It'll be interesting to see how long it will last before engine problems, not that I'm expecting any. One concern is valve bounce (due to the sheer amount of gasses entering and escaping at high speed) as the valve springs on the uk car aren't as hard as on sti's. This would more than likely happen at 6500+rpm but then saying this the uk car doesn't rev as high as an sti.

This is a lot of power to expect from a 2 litre engine and is about the highest you can go without messing about with bigger injectors/ecu and internals. I'm sure the conrods etc are working harder but I also keep an eye on oil temperature which has never gone over 105degrees on a hard prolonged thrash (as opposed to some cars on track which can see temps upto 150degrees-the absolute maximum on a track should be 125degrees, if it hits this then stop and make sure to change the oil too!) oil pressure is also monitored and I'll shortly be fitting an EGT and Fuel pressure gauge as precautions. Also before embarking on any summer trackdays I'll be looking at an oil cooler as temps have risen on average 10-15 degrees since fitting the fmic. Water temp on the RR was 87 degrees incidentally, about the same as the oil temp!

I also take all precautions for longevity, the engine is never thrashed from cold until temps reach 70 degrees and it's always left to tickover a short while before I turn it off. Regular oil changes and Castrol RS oil which is one of the "coolest" oils around too.

It's the clutch which is feeling the strain more now, still std original clutch after 50k miles, recently the pedal feel has been a little inconsistent and it's sometimes harder to engage the gears quickly. This is probably down to the springs on the clutch cover being worn (as there isn't any noticeable slip) and not as stiff as they used to be. That'll be the next job.

To conclude, I think that it is running quite safely with the mods at the moment. If anything temperatures are much lower than those of the standard car and certainly lower than they were running 1.15bar with the std turbo and intercooler. Certainly the engine will be under more stress than a std car but not ridiculously so as all those mods work together extremely well meaning that most of the power has come from a much more efficient engine, as opposed to running higher boost more advance and leaner mixtures, evident in the boost that I'm still running, although it's also much more costly to do it this way!

From what I've seen on the RR the other day, ecu work on mine won't be necessary until I intend to run more than 1.25barish of boost (bear in mind the standard fuel cut is also still in place!!) which I won't do until I've gone internal which in turn means uprating the fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulator/heads/cams/valve springs/lifters steel internals etc, so hopefully I'll have plenty of time to save up!

PE were genuinely surprised by these figures and even did a second run to make sure it wasn't a freak result since it was putting out almost the same as tuned sti3 ra's with short gearing.

It's refreshing to see the attitude of PE as well. After a visit to Japan and speaking with STi it seems that they've gone from the traditional leaning out of mixtures as the scoobs tend to run very rich to making them run even richer, particularly on the STi where the top ***** at sti apparently recognise a problem with bearings and temps on no 3 where exhaust temp runs hotter by 100 degrees (particularly on the V's resulting from smaller turbine more advance crap fuel which=higher temps) than the other pistons, and recommended running a mixture of 10:1 and max EGT temps of no more than 875 degrees recorded in the up-pipe for a safe car.

Interesting also that the first mods made in Japan when tuning a Subaru are Front mount intercooler,oil cooler EGT meter and turbo boost gauge.

I know I'm rambling here quite a bit and steered of the point but I thought that some of this info might be useful.

Also, to anyone reading this please remember that these figures etc all relate to my particular car MY98 and doesn't necessarily mean that all model imprezas can run like this, particularly earlier cars where the boost cut is set to around 1 bar and also jap spec cars where the ecu isn't mapped for our fuel and therefore in some cases can't retard (oops put advanced in,edited) timing enough so would require a remap for safety purposes anyway.

Rgds
Nito

[This message has been edited by NITO (edited 20 February 2001).]

DavidRB

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NITO:
<B>It's refreshing to see the attitude of PE as well. After a visit to Japan and speaking with STi it seems that they've gone from the traditional leaning out of mixtures as the scoobs tend to run very rich to making them run even richer[/quote]

And <I>that</I> is the only reason that put me off the PE Phase 1 conversion.

Gussie Cup

Nito - Good to meet you on Sunday at Donno - I was the guy desperately seeking brake pads for 2-pots.......

Who carried out the conversion to HKS kit (i.e fitting of the new turbine etc?)

BTW, dyno graph looks great
Ben

harj

I took my Scoob to PTS and got 350BHP on their Rollers and and at Powerstation who done all the work to my car produced 305BHP with 300lbts torque and it sure proved it was fast

PE is a 400BHP fugure I bet

NITO

Cheers Ben,

I did most of the HKS work myself but the Barretts Motorsport Rally team did an excellent job of fitting the turbine kit.

Harj,
Why not bring yours along to the next PE dyno shoot, AFAIK PTS figures are usually higher than PE figures but there's only one way to find out so you better ask yourself, do you feel lucky??

Nito