RB5_245

When my shiney new VF35 turned up, it was actually a VS35??? Anyway, since thats not going on i'm going to go for a hybrid TD05 with 360 degree thrust bearing (I hope) from turbo dynamics. I don't if i can get away with keeping the 16G compressor wheel (not much of a hybrid ) or if i'll need the 20G. I'm looking for 340bhp with:

MY99
APS TMIC
Water Injection
Full de-cat
HKS induction kit
and of course the mandatory fuel pump,knocklink, lambdalink,boost gauge (just to quell those 'make sure and get a knocklink' threads )

Because i'm using a top mount i don't want to be running on the edge of a 16G's limits and blowing hot(er) air. But then again I don't want a big laggy engine which is why i'm sticking with the top mount in the first place.

Anyone any experence with garret turbos on scoobs, i know ford owners use the 'T' series with a chattering wastegate quite succesfully.

Edited to say, If the group buy goes well i'll be doing it with the GEMS ECU otherwise it's an Ecutek re-map.

[Edited by RB5_245 - 11/7/2003 12:20:05 PM]

T-uk

I'm looking for 340bhp

RB5_245
Scooby Regular
Posts: 298
From: Scotland

if you are talking Star Performance horses , you could be struggling with a 16g , even with a front mount. both andyf and john banks have had over 350bhp with them at star but they where pushed to the max.

given that you want to run a tmic I would probably go for a 20g. you do not mention headers but the 20g will manage that easily and standard headers will keep lag and spool to a min. I would change the up-pipe though.

are you going to Star on sunday?, there might be a few 20g cars there. my own car runs a 16g with fmic at 1.2bar at peak power which should do 320bhp at star. if I have the time and there is space on the day I might throw it on the rollers. this is as far as I want to take my car with standard injectors and standard inlet. if I changed them I could possibly get up to 340bhp at star but after that octane booster would be needed which I do not like using daily.




[Edited by T-uk - 11/7/2003 5:10:28 PM]

The Fixer

RB5, If you still fancy a VF35 I've got a used one (1500 miles) and the Sti injectors to get you to 340 HP if you fancy them.

Conrad

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 11/7/2003 5:15:41 PM]

john banks

Try that on Scottish rollers If you can get 355 on a VF35 on a set of rollers I bet you would be at 390 on a TD05 setup optimally and about 460 with a 20G.

Bear in mind that the TD05 outflows the VF22 by 9%. There is nothing to suggest that the VF35 with two sizes smaller turbine housing could beat a VF22, compressor size may be similar, but it is no fireball, and 355 BHP is highly optimistic. Should be doing very low 12s if that is the case.

[Edited by john banks - 11/7/2003 9:06:31 PM]

john banks

A/R refers to the compressor or exhaust housing (area of nozzle or scroll divided by radius).

16G or 20G or whatever is Mitsubishi's notation for compressor wheel and type.

TD05H or TD06, TD06H, TD06SH are Mitsubishi codes for the central housing and turbine wheel.

7cm2, 8cm2 etc are Mitsubishi measurements of nozzle discharge area onto the turbo, and hence describe the size of the turbine housing.

P15, P18 or P20 are IHI notations for turbine housings.

Not all the data is easily available in comparable formats between the manufacturers.

Broadly there are three ways to influence the flow of a cold or hot side of a turbo in terms of measurements.

1. The size of the wheel
2. The trim of the wheel (square ratio between inducer and exducer)
3. The AR of the housing it sits in (larger is better flowing)

The material of the wheel is also important (ceramic is lighter so spools up quicker). Also the blade design and bearing type are important.

Then you can have the turbine housing split into twin scrolls to allow pulse effect turbocharging. You can also have variable nozzle technology, but unfortunately not yet on any turbos suitable for Subarus.

So detailed Mitsubishi specs of things that could fit Suabrus would be eg:

TD05H 16G 7cm2
TD05H 16G 8cm2
TD05H 18G 7cm2
TD05H 18G 8cm2
TD05H 20G 7cm2
TD05H 20G 8cm2
TD06 20G 8cm2 (not sure if the 06 wheel will fit in a 7cm2 housing).

[Edited by john banks - 11/7/2003 10:26:02 PM]

john banks

How much boost are you planning on running?

16G small is the one used OEM on older Imprezas.

Moray has a TD05 18G IIRC and would be able to give you feedback on it.

[Edited by john banks - 11/8/2003 8:32:59 AM]

Denmark

iTrader: (2)

on my my99´,all i can get out of the TD05-16G with 1,40bar dropping to 1,3bar/7000rpm,with manifold,frontmount,550cc injectors

This is on straight 98 octan with NO BOOSTER

That is 336,4hp/6651rpm and 412,9nm/4047rpm.

Skassa



[Edited by Denmark - 11/8/2003 8:59:37 AM]

john banks

New design or not, I just don't feel it delivers the goods, I suppose it is preference. 355 BHP as claimed for VF35 should be low 12s not mid-high 12s surely?

The fact that AndyF has 11.7s at c.118mph on his TD05 underlines its potential even though his car is light?

Are there any VF35s anywhere near the low 12s or over 300WHP on Delta Dash?

Spool up is nice, but when you are going for it how often are you wanting power under 3500 RPM?

[Edited by john banks - 11/8/2003 5:24:11 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

What is a VS35 .....

Carlos H.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

a TDO5 FE will do the job of 340bhp no problem, i am using a TDO5/O6 20G from Andy F and find it spools at the same rpm as the TDO5 i had on before it.

if you are planning more mods in the future go for the TDO5/O6 20G though.

RB5_245

Carlos, a VS35 appears to be a VF35 with different exhaust flanges and cooling connections....... god knows what it's supposed to fit

Johnny, cheers that's what i was looking for, if the spool up is about the same i'll go for the 20G.

Dave

RB5_245

I would still consider a VF35 but i think it will be pushed for what i want. I really could do with a look at the compressor map for one.

I really like the idea of Hybriding a 20G now for the lower charge temps, plus the opportunity of a 360deg thrust bearing for some nice noise.

Is star in fife? how long is it on for, i was planning to go to crail sunday but if i get the chance i'll definetly make an appearance.

I already have an up-pipe waiting to go on with the turbo, i was planning to port the oem headers at some stage but wasn't making it a priority.

RB5_245

I would still consider a VF35 but i think it will be pushed for what i want. I really could do with a look at the compressor map for one.

I really like the idea of Hybriding a 20G now for the lower charge temps, plus the opportunity of a 360deg thrust bearing for some nice noise. (Do you get a lot of boost surge problems with these at low revs though, how does the oem ecu stand up to this?)

Is star in fife? how long is it on for, i was planning to go to crail sunday but if i get the chance i'll definetly make an appearance.

I already have an up-pipe waiting to go on with the turbo, i was planning to port the oem headers at some stage but wasn't making it a priority.

Andy.F

There will be at least one of my 20g hybrids running on Sunday at Star I might just put mine on for a laugh as it hasn't got a wastegate actuator on it at the moment just a light spring holding the wg closed until the exhaust pressure overcomes it at approx 10 psi boost. Quite nice to drive like that, feels like an M3 !!

cheers

Andy

The Fixer

RB5, VF35 will do 340 all day long, G-force squeeze 355 out of em with FMIC but then that's the limit. About 1.5 bar if I remember rightly. Take a look at Jap Performance car November issue, its there stage 2A & 2B, both based on the VF35.

Conrad

STi M'8

Actually, can anybody confirm that the VF35 is 15G...?

john banks

No it is not, G is a Mitsubishi notation for the stratified compressor wheel blades, the wheels sizes are also not directly comparable to VFs.

Unfortunately there is little info on measurements of the VF35.

STi M'8

Thanks John.

I found something about the IHI mesurement method in the STi7 manufacturer .pdf (general tech description), but as far as I can remember, they were concentrating on the P15 housing...

Anyway, A/R seems to be 0.63... meaning an approx. 15G, isn't it ?

Any other input ?

RB5_245

By the look of the compressor maps, a 16G is a little small for me and a 20G is a little big (Boost Surge). I've never heard of an 18G.. Is this readily available for a TD05 hybrid.

Also what is the standard TD05 on the early impreza's, i hae maps for TD05 small, and large?

I didn't realise there were different sizes, although the maps i got were from a GTO website.

Cheers, Dave.

EMS

John,

Don´t forget the VF35 is a new design turbo! If you take a look at the compressor you see the gap between the wheel and the housing is almost zero. This can be done because of a special coating on the compressor cover. This compressor isn´t too bad, I don´t think it performs worse than a 16G small. (my personal opinion is that it performs even better, because of it´s very quick spoolup time)

I didn´t find the turbine too restrictive for the capacity of the compressor. I think it´s a very good match for a 2 liter engine. (better than a VF30, which doesn´t give more top end power with worse spool up)

P.S. I like the "Andy" TD05/06 hybrid also, but it´s a different story! Spoolup time is much slower compared with the VF35 (not too bad though for such a big turbo!), but it can produce way more HP.

P.S.2 A MY99 with VF35 and TMIC which I mapped, did a 12.7 sec run with 111 MPH trap speed, not too bad I think.....

Mark.

RB5_245

I was planning on 18psi, i calculated about 295bhp from that boost although that takes the intercooler as a bit of an unknown and doesn't account for mapping. I may need to go a little higher then.

at 18psi on the 20G charge temp (pre intercooler) should only be about 130 degrees which i thought was really good. However if the 18G can match that it may be better for me as i don't intend to go any higher than 340bhp.

Andy.F

I think your problem may be finding an 18g compressor wheel ?

The 20g will have no problem with an 18psi target from low rpm, I have just set up an AVC-R with a 1.45 bar target from 3200 to 7500 rpm. The relatively small bore OE turbo inlet pipe keeps the pre inducer air velocity high and combats surge.

I have not tried to fit one with a TMIC yet though. The compressor discharge is almost the same diameter but sits a bit higher due to its increased diameter. It would possibly mate ok to the later type twin inlet intercooler with a silicone hose. I don't think the early type plastic hose would fit.

Andy

Avispon

Mark,

The MY99 put in Zandvoort a trapspeed of 111 mph with a lot of wind in its back. When this car went to e real dragstrip it could only put a trapspeed of 105. And that is the aprox. maximum what it can trap.

RB5_245

When you're running that power on the standard gearbox maybe it's best not to run so much boost at low revs anyway.

My intercooler is twin inlet, but with the size of it there is very little room for manouvering about. Sure it'll get on though.

carlos_hiraoka

My vote goes to the VF35, probably will not make the same peak HP as the TD05, but it is a very very nice IHI VF turbo, in fact the best I have tested.

Carlos H.

carlos_hiraoka

Mark (EMS) have u tested the VF35 with an aftermarket header ????? ..... would like to know how it behaves with an aftermarket header, and if the spool still is as fantastic as it is with a stock setup .

Carlos H.

EMS

I wouldn't try to say it's the most powerfull Subaru you can find, it's a VERY driveable car that has decent power with minor mods.

John,

The car doesn't have 300 WHP on the road dyno, it was not the intension. The car (MY99 with minor mods) produces about 260 WHP on Road Dyno. (only 1.2 bar @ 6000 RPM) I have done an STi7 with GT-spec headers with 275 WHP on the VF35 and very conservative boost. (also about 1.2 bar @ 6000 RPM) All cars mapped on 98 RON pump fuel. (very save mapping, I don't think they will knock on 95 RON....)

The turbo has much more potential compared to a VF23! A TD05 20G you can't compare. It is more laggy, but is able to produce more HP. (It's too laggy for me though on a 2 liter engine, but that's personal. I rather like to drive it like a rally car.....)

P.S. My next project will be with a PE1825 Twin-scroll......

Mark.

john banks

I can see why a TD05 would apparently offer little advantage over a VF35 if you are only running 1.2 bar and the extra lag would have no flipside to make up for it. The beauty of it is that the turbine and compressor are up to far more boost whereas this low level of boost plays into the VF35's hand because it is efficient there? But why would anyone want to only run 1.2 bar when higher boost is reliable?

David MY99

The MY99 with VF35 is mine which Mark tekked.

The car has a high driveabillity and has 1.0bar @ 2950 rpm
1.4bar 5000 rpm
1.35 5500 rpm
1.25 6000 rpm
1.20 6500 rpm
1.15 7000 rpm

@ Avispon,
Hope to see you the 16th at Zandvoort
Would be happy to set the car next to your MY98 with PE1820

The trapspeed @ Drachten from 105 mph was with a failing clutch as you know

Fatman

My car's having a VF35 installed this week. It's also having 550s, fuel pump/regulator, APS FMIC (Forge recirc valve), Gruppe-S headers and flexi up-pipe. I'm not immediately going to get the car rolling-roaded, but when I do I'll happily post the results.