David_Wallis

Harvey,

Why?

Adams engine broke on the dyno, yours broke on the track.. NEITHER CAN BE CLASSED AS RELIABLE.. FACT!

you might do 20,000 miles a year they may also be below 2000 rpm..

its all bollocks.. My car is driven as if its stolen, if im driving that is..

if the car can take that abuse then its doing well.

I dont give a **** about reliability, my car was built for me

Terminal is terminal.. it was fu*cked game set and match..

Any failure which cant be fixed by a 'reboot' is terminal, just cos you had a spare cylinder head doesnt change it.. ffs adam and mark both had spare blocks.. mean anything?

Ill discuss engines or turbos.. Mark supplied both very happy I am too

John Bank's engine is his issue.. that issue may have been 2months ago but there was a few reasons why it was delayed and I am one of them, I complained in a big way about someone causing issues themself that would delay me to totb.. someone else also said fine.

Why would anyone want a 20g wheel ??

Pat has been busy.. Ill send him your way oo err...

What you got planned for well lane.. hamsters?? Mark... wanna swap as I dont think Ill be happy to rr with 500 miles.. and yours is : D



[Edited by David_Wallis - 9/5/2003 1:06:44 AM]

David_Wallis

[Edited by David_Wallis - 9/5/2003 1:12:22 AM]

C

13) Will Andy & Harvey announce thier engagement?

[Edited by C - 9/6/2003 2:37:42 PM]

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Hey Chris : I havn't spoken to Andy lately and the engagement is a non starter as we are both Alpha Males. Don`t know about you. I`m still cracked up about "Turbos Are U/S"!!!!!
Steven : Lots of good info in this thread, real informative stuff, if you can read, 'cos you sure can`t spell.
Lighten up.

[Edited by harvey - 9/6/2003 4:11:10 PM]

Andy.F

The official response from the Scottish Mafia









[Edited by Andy.F - 9/6/2003 9:55:06 PM]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Another successful day out for the Scottish Mafia calibrating the rollers...





Whhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrreeee's Jonny?!

[Edited by Rannoch - 9/6/2003 10:19:27 PM]

Andy.F

<worried>Do you keep a lot of pics like that </worried>

[Edited by Andy.F - 9/6/2003 10:21:44 PM]

Andy.F

RSVR - You're new here then
Whilst others have just been full of hot air Harvey and I have been doing the rounds of all the rolling roads/trackdays etc for the past 2 years


David, why do you keep Rannochs picture of a mans bum on your webspace ? Where has all your previously claimed bhp gone

Andy


[Edited by Andy.F - 9/7/2003 12:01:20 PM]

David_Wallis

Just for Andy.. ***

Andy... choose some pics from here http://tinyurl.com/miru and ill upload them to my site..

David

*** I did warn you ***

[Edited by David_Wallis - 9/7/2003 11:26:59 AM]

Andy.F

Oh Bugher - Scooby shootout, Crail, Star Performance..........or Holiday ?? hmm, let me think

And I'm not going to be at this one so I can say things like "wait until Well Lane 'x' and I'll have my xxx bhp super dooper 2.?? litre engine ready"

[Edited by Andy.F - 9/7/2003 1:56:57 PM]

C

Ok maybe not

[Edited by C - 9/7/2003 3:03:00 PM]

harvey

iTrader: (48)

David : At no time have I said I will get 500bhp out of this engine but I do expect to get it when the new engine is in and fettled. I think you know this anyway.
What do you need to do to get to the 600 bhp you have been talking about? It would be a sight to see on the rollers at Well Lane so good luck with whatever is required.
Half a Porridge Wog? Well someone with Scottish anticedents.

Rannoch : Your clicky comes back "Web Page Unavailable".
Why not give us straight forward answers to straight forward questions? Does this pose a problem ?
"I assume your engine is coming from SMG but I am not sure. With all the delays that have taken place and your own statement that you might not bother with a bigger engine, perhaps you will forgive my uncertainty. If you are building a bigger engine, compression ratio, bore, stroke, and cam shaft lift, duration etc, and all of genuine interest"

Andy : Thanks for clarifying that. When the engine was built by Matt Clark I was persuaded to go to a lower compression ratio using a 1.6mm head gasket. As I knew far less then about Subarus than I know now I went along with this. The thinking was that with a C.R. of around 7.4:1 it would be tolerant to the use of the wrong fuel and with a lower C.R. higher boost could be used to achieve greater power. Although the car performed very well, I was unhappy with the off boost performance which was probably exaserbated by the tall gearing at the time. When John Pye removed the gear box because of damage to the drive train when Scooby Sport fitted different diff ratios front and rear I took advantage of the situation, pulled the engine out, had the heads skimmed and standard .6mm head gaskets were used. This brought the C.R. to somewhere between 7.3 and 7.4.
Probably for ultimate power a lower C.R. would be the way to go but for everyday road use off boost performance is important and I know it was a move in the right direction for the type of driving I do.
I do not know how to upload copy documents on here but I have copied my compression calcs and other measurements onto my website which may help others wishing to do compression calculations.
www.goecities.com/harveysmith3000



[Edited by harvey - 9/8/2003 2:12:36 PM]

R19KET

Harvey,

I'm not aware of anyone using "special" head gaskets. Or are you referring to people using an alternative gasket to the "off the shelf" Subaru options ?

Some people are using an alternative make of gasket, which offers a wider range of thickness's, so compression can be adjusted, but I believe you are doing the same ? It's certainly what Roger Clark do, to offer different CR's, using the same pistons.

It will be very interesting to see how your new engine performs compared to you current engine.

Mark.

Pavlo

Mine are Cometic triple layer steel, to my required thickness (thick) , but otherwise same as Subaru steel gasket.

Although Pat has had some copper ones made, I don't know of anyone other than pat using them, despite the initial interest.

Paul

Bob Rawle

Trouble with copper is that the mating surfaces have to be almost perfectly flat for them to work (as should the gaskets be flat and parallel). Laminated steel is designed to accomodate normal vaguries.

Several different "std" Subaru gaskets available so no need for "specials" in that respect I guess.

I understand that several engine bulders of some popularity also vary the gasket thicknesses to tweak compression so seems common enough practice.

Depending on the squish design varying results would be obtained.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I did not request this thread merely that if the discussion was to continue we should come off somebody elses thread on turbos as this was unrelated and clearly I and others had got up the nose of of a few people. Poor sods do not know Andy gave me the winding handle before he went on hols.
Some engines in the process of build or re-build seem to have exotic specs. Wire ringed blocks,special piston coatings, special gaskets, exotic head work and so on. I am not sure as the owners of most of these engines want to keep their specs secret for some reason which is their right but personally I do not see why and it does not advance the development of the marque. The same applies to some engine failures which have been hushed up.
As a result of what I have learned and observed on this board and 22b over the last three years or whatever. I think it is important to keep the spec as simple as possible and stick to a well thought out comprehensive joined up plan. The new engine will have CDB, stronger head studs,mild head work,ported manifold and headers,higher lift cams, Omega pistons in preference to Cosworths and 850cc injectors, over the existing spec published here.
www.geocities.com/harveysmith3000
Yes the results will be interesting but with so many advantages over the existing then 500 bhp from two litres is on the cards. A final decision on a turbo can only be made after the engine has been run for a bit but whereas at the early stages of this engine it may have been laggy with torque quite high up, that has been progressively improved and I will happily provide rolling road graphs to demonstrate this when I do the next couple of runs in the next few weeks at which time development of this car will be complete. Hopefully that will shut up the know it alls and n0b heads who know far more about my car than I do with comments about optimistic power figures, all top end,lack of drivability and so forth. BTW At present with 2700rpm in 4th or 5th there is not a lot of need for a gear change and at 3500 rpm it is a waste of time, just hang on to the steering wheel and eyes firmly on what is ahead.
Similar spec engines? Well Bob Rawle has very similar spec but is using the ver 7 semi- CDB but only because it made economic sense when he did his rebuild. He also switches between a Link and Motec ECU while continuing development work. Last time we did checks Bob had about 15 to 20 bhp on me but I have no idea on the present state of play.
Andy F has proven he has around 445 bhp and may have more now. Not sure of his full spec so best check with him but it is neither exotic or expensive considering the car is for sale for £10k, a lot less than I have spent on mods alone.
This covers everything as far as I know.

David_Wallis

Id like to add my engine isnt in the build or rebuild stages..

My spec is partly confidential..

I chose the compression ratio for my requirements.

My engine does have exotic coatings.. same reason you use ceramic I use exhaust wrap.. they do make a difference..

didnt have time to do coatings or even wrap the dp properly..

my head gaskets are std subaru template but they arent manufactured by subaru..

edited to add.. (got distracted at work)

The rest of my engine specs are confidential as there are other engine builders that may jump on the bandwagon and copy my specs.. Its my suppliers specs and it helps his customers cars why help competitors??

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 8/21/2003 2:52:48 PM]

Adam M

???

standard 2.5 gaskets

keronite piston coating because I couldn't get oil squirters on a phase 2 2.5.

would recommend this but only based on heresay from formula teams as some have measured it to keep piston crown temps down.

No offence harvey but I am trying to push things a bit further, and when you do things start to fail and more extreme conditions start to exist. You have to build in ways to combat the nastier environment the piston is in.

We are now in the realms of 600bhp, but more importantly, 600lbft.

I don't recall seeing anyone else break the 400lbft mark yet, but am open to being proven wrong.

This is not meant to be a typical antagonising post so I hope no one reads it as such. It is just meant to defend the actions of those seekign to cross every T and dot every i and lower case j.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Harvey,

I am not quite sure as to the context of your post however I do have a few observations...

Can you give us any indication of who is building these engines - I think I am at least a curious as you?

I would hate to be one to rankle you Harvey - however when others made speculation as to the spec of your engine elsewhere, you clearly demonstrated your disappointment - rather than the path of enlightenment as you have taken here!

Am intrigued again - can you shed any light - or does the cover up prevent any light from escaping?

I think that is an excellent plan - as it is well known that in between many other things I am getting an engine put together and other than having a different source for pistons and different injector sizes I think that my list is very similar to yours - indeed as many parts as possible are straight from the Subaru parts bin. The sensible spec adds up well.

Good luck with the build - fingers crossed mine will be ready soon enough!

Finally - will you ready for Scooby Shoot Out - would be good to see how it runs

Rannoch

Adam M

My apologies to Christian, who also broke 400lbfts of torque.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I didn`t start this thread, that is down to Mark.

David : Don`t be so touchy. I know your engine is not being rebuilt and I assume most people know that anyway.
You pay for your engine so it is your choice if you want to keep the spec secret. Anybody wanting to copy my spec is welcome and I would be happy to give them as much additional information as possible if it helped them to get a good reliable engine. I also think the engine builder has a lot to do with the outcome of the final product.
Many people are looking forward to Well Lane VI. Can their rollers handle 600bhp? Will it be the most powerful car they have had on? It would be worth finding out the most powerful car they have had to date.

Adam : I sincerely wish you well with your rebuild and final results although it is taking considerably longer than originally stated. 600bhp and 600 ftlbs would be stunning but perhaps it would be best to have the engine in the car producing these figures before dreaming about it on here.
BTW I was impressed with your literary gem and I was not being sarcastic.

Rannock : Your better able than me to go back through the numerous posts and hot air since last Autumn to get a list of people talking about getting big spec engines. You for one. What is happening with your engine ? In a recent post you said you might not bother so just how far have you gone?
You are not rankling me. I do not mind wrangling with you and when you bite a P155 take with you can be quite amusing when I have nothing else to do. Speculation about my spec is unnecessary as it is not a secret. It is the *** heads who speculate about my specification or performance that seem to know more about my car than I do myself. They post a load of crap and hot air on here. Why speculate, lets just deal in facts.
I know of several failed engines where the actual failure or cause of failure has been hushed up and indeed one engine failed twice in quick succession. As those involved will not share what actually happened then it will serve no purpose to highlight these events now other than cause rancor. However, in some cases it must leave a question as to the motives and abilities of those involved.
I am glad my engine spec meets with your approval. Who is building your engine and why is it taking so long and why the doubt as to it being ready for Scooby Shoot Out when that is so far away ? What capacity is your engine, compression ratio ? Tell us about the spec in the hope that some of us may learn more than we know at present.
My car is ready with its original engine for Scooby Shoot Out and since March of last year I have been able to drive and enjoy it for most of the time.
I look forward to your information but my holidays end tonight but Andy F might pick up where I leave off.

Adam M

thanks harvey, I didnt think you were being sarcastic and took it as a compliment!

I don't see why its a dream. 571lbft and 569bhp (before it had reached its peak) are not so far removed from 600 are they?

Don't mean to be rude but I pay more attention to the figures from the engine dyno than I do from any rolling road.

I presume you mean reliably produced in the car rather than with regard to the engine being in the car! but then reliable is a relative term depending on what you are willing to accomodate in terms of set backs!

Am waiting on some bits again for the engine, can't disclose what they are on line for reasons relating to potential law suits! sure I covered this before.

R19KET

Harvey,

I guess there will always be "dreamers", but Adam isn't just dreaming, he's doing something about it, as is Trout, and David wallis, and even if they do dream of attaining high figures, what's the problem ? I don't understand why other peoples dreams, or goals seem to cause you such angst ! To me, it seems no different to your goal of 500bhp + from a 2lt.

You want people to be "open" about their cars, and spec's, but at the same time, you have a go at people who are doing just that.

Adam posted the results of his dyno session, good, and BAD. But as soon as he mentions anything about the figures, you put him down, and call him a dreamer. Had he of kept quiet about the results, and the failure, you'd be berating him for that too !

It's no wonder that some people keep quiet !

I'm trying to work out what the difference is between Adam quoting his results, even though the engine failed, and YOU quoting your last results at Elvington, even though YOUR engine failed in the process ? Me thinks "double standards".

There will always be owners who blow their engine, and want to keep it quiet, or mappers who are concerned for their reputation. You know of such people, so do I, and no doubt others do too.

If this knowlege causes you concern, then post it, or take it up with those it relates to.

Why do these threads, that could make for such interesting discussion, always end up going the same way ????

Mark.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Harvey,

not sure if you will be about - but just to put the record straight in case anyone has the vaguest interest...

...my engine is coming later than I thought. Initially I had a much lower spec than I have now - aiming for 450bhp - however that has already been achieved in several quarters. I then moved the spec on and have been assembling the appropriate bits as they are available. A couple of components did take longer than I would have liked - and that was as much to do with getting things done as favours or at cost than anything more difficult.

I would have preferred it earlier for sure - however it is being built at cost and so it is hard for me to push in in front of profit making customers and so they must come first. With hindsight I may well have had the short engine built at one of a number of commercial builders - but in the end I haven't

It is a personal project and I want to be involved. I now await some time off that I have booked in the second half of September to hopefully get it running - hence the timetable for Scooby Shoot out.

I will post the spec later...in the interim I have a completely new drivetrain assembled, heads, ECU, turbo and other peripherals.

Rannoch

PS I am also running the same engine I have been using for the last 60,000 miles - and it has kept me going in the interim - so I am happy

[Edited by Rannoch - 8/22/2003 11:58:04 PM]

David_Wallis

I have someones drivetrain in my garage

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Mark : No angst on my part in respect of the power claims from David W. or Adam and Rannoch`s engine is still a long time away and he has made no power claims as far as I know for his revised specification. I look forward excitedly to David W. running at Well Lane as I am sure do many others.

I hope you do not think my good wishes to Adam with progress on his engine are insincere. I know how upset and disappointed he must have been with the split liner and whatever else happened.

I do not see how I am having a go at anybody for being "open" about their spec. No doubt you can give me examples. What I am saying is that good power is available from only 2 litres without exotic modifications. I am not putting Adam down but suggesting that perhaps he should exercise some caution and not talk of 600bhp and 600ftlbs until it is achieved reliably.

There is a big difference between me talking of my aspirations for my next engine at 500bhp when I am already producing 450bhp + from the current one when limiting factors and items for improvement are already identified, in hand and discussed openly. The figures you quote are spot figures for an engine run on a dyno for a few hours resulting in terminal failure. From previous posts I understood that rectification work would be completed in a couple of weeks, that was many weeks ago and as Adam has already stated, rectification is now much more than just a liner and the program has slipped, so much so that he has bought another STi engine to allow him to enjoy his car in the meantime.

As regards people keeping quiet. Bit like the Pot calling the kettle black.

I am quite happy to continue this thread with genuine sharing of specs and knowledge which will benefit the Subaru community at large.

Rannoch : Thank you for your reply.

Can you be a bit more specific about your specification, capacity, compression ratio and other details that are of information to us all.

David W : "I have someone`s drive train in my garage"
I think Rannoch should give you a gold star !!!

[Edited by harvey - 8/23/2003 3:27:58 PM]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Harvey,

I will post my spec - just collating all the info.

Just out of interest my drivetrain is in David's garage as we were going to put it on for TOTB II along with one or two interesting mods to the standard engine - it would have needed the uprated box and diff . In the end I got back late from India and was in bed for two days ill and so it all didn't work out .

Looking forward to being able to finally focus some time on the car - there is a lot to do as the whole thing is to be stripped down and built back up again.

In terms of power and torque figures - I will wait and see - not a huge amount over 450bhp, but I am planning on a very high torque figure to produce a very driveable street car with a wide power and torque band.

Maybe for high days and holy days (i.e. TOTB III ) I will use a drag spec - as the engine and drivetrain are massively overspecced

Rannoch

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Well - I have got some thoughts together having been out mowing my lawns most of the day

The highlights of my of spec is as below - there are a few things being tried - mostly around the engine peripherals that I would prefer to report on after the engine has been run and is demonstrable.

Engine:

Short block identical to David Wallis and John Banks - EJ20 CDB, relinered with custom liners and fitted with custom pistons and rods; modified EJ25 crank, uprated bearings, uprated ARP head studs, custom (but not 'special' ) steel head gaskets, higher compression ratio than Wallis as no NOS plans

Heads:

Phase II heads, ported and flowed, modified STi V cams, custom billet valves, double valve springs

Turbo:

Lateral Performance Custom Garrett GT Series hybrid (rated to 'dreamer bhp' ), custom pipework, external wastegate, Lateral Performance custom Air Filter kit

Drivetrain:

Lateral Performance Synchro kit, LSD front and rear, Paddle Clutch, Billet flywheel

ECU:

Pectel T6

Fuel Systems:

Parallel rails, twin pumps, 740 injectors (unless they can't cope), SX Fuel reg

There are a few other bits and pieces that if successful may be shared here after the car is up and running

Everything is now ready for final assembly and the bench dyno.

Rannoch

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

So whats the story with camshafts??? Its something that is rarely discussed, but with people now using different profiles, what is available, and what sort of gains are to be had???
And what sort of prices....can they be reground OK, or are new blanks needed??

There are plenty of block/bore options available for cc change, plenty of different turbo and manifold arrangements, but I am yet to hear what camshafts are reccomended.
Have any been tried and tested with good results on a 2.0 ?? Would WRC or rally spec cams be suitable for a road car?? RPM's would be similar, but a road car wouldnt have the restrictor obviously, so could possibly make better use of such a cam??

After looking at several rally cars yesterday, most WRC types, externally they dont seem anything too special. Intercoolers are big, but not huge, pipework routes are very neat, they were using 4 injectors ( actually grey in colour ) I didnt notice any water injection on the subarus, although a few escorts were using it.
And on the subject of cooling, mentioned elsewhere....all of the rally cars I looked at had standard radiators.

So with good cams, good turbo etc, can we get the mid range torque a WRC car has, but with a lot more power?? Simplified approach, but why not??

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Stevie,

interesting question...

...the cam profile I am going to use is reground onto STi V cams. The Sti V version does enable significant lift to be generated - more so than any other OEM Subaru cam AFAIK.

I don't have the exact profile here - but I can assure you it is a significant improvement on the standard.

The other area of interest is duration - the Scoob would seem to be quite sensitve to this - and as a turbo you can't go too wild with it - and so it is always a limitation.

Finally - whatever you do with cams - you should also think about the flow of the ports. It is not much use having a really good cam and a head that cannot flow the gas and vice versa. On my heads the cams and ports have been matched on a flow bench.

IIRC the inlet has a 15-20% improvement in flow and the exhaust a 20% ++ improvement - and this is on Phase II heads which are already very good


Rannoch