Andy.F

For you guys going for the big bhp this year, why not save yourself the hassle of waiting months (perhaps years) for your "special" engine to be conceived and become reliable.

There's a company in the US that will ship you a complete built engine with brand new cylinder heads and major components, the spec of which has been tested to over 800 bhp and 9500rpm......for £7800 !!

See here for more details -
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=1

I think I want one.........

The same company also have a 6 cylinder subaru in progress too which they aim to have running in the 7 second bracket for the 1/4 mile, somewhere around 1200 bhp planned IIRC

Andy

BoxerFlat4

Looks like my cover is blown then !


**** !

carlos_hiraoka

just need £7800 and a Shell station

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like a really good engine.. shame the rest of the bits and bobs will cost so much to handle that power

David_Wallis

since its in the open...

How do you spin balance an engine to 10,000rpm??

David

pat

Doesn't look like anything new to me, just the elaborate power claims.... running an engine on a dyno for a few seconds at 800 BHP doesn't equate to reliability.... hold it at 800BHP @ 9500 RPM for 24 hours and I'll believe that it's reliable (of course it would melt about 60 seconds into the run). Furthermore it's using the stock crank which, although good, simply isn't THAT good. It would be really nice if these would last at 800 BHP, but if they do, then so would all the other sensible builds happening, there's nothing new or trick here that I can see that would just magically allow you to run 800 BHP.

It's also somewhat amusing that Prodrive, with a budget roughly 500 times larger can't get get an EJ20 to hold together at 600 BHP for much more than 15 minutes before it's goosed... but then it's back to the difference between running a couple of 1/4 miles a month and a full on race where the power is actually being used. I would put real money on it that one of these 800 BHP engines will not last a whole track day if driven properly, never mind being used seriously in competition. Still, I wait to be amazed and relieved of some money if they really are that reliable.

Me, I'm just gonna stick with my antiquated 6 cylinder lump; splitting the loads across another 2 cylinders, big ends and main journals will allow it to produce the same power as a 4 cylinder with reduced internal stresses and hopefully greater longevity.

Cheers,

Pat.

Pavlo

Pat,

Prodrive didn't (AFAIK) have the advantage of stroke though, which doesn't add to things like head lift in the same way that increased bore or high cylinder pressure does.

But I see what you mean.

Still, another reasonably priced engine package which should be fine for 500+hp requirements is never going to be a bad thing.

Paul

pat

David,

talk to your friendly local bike shop, or Formula One team, they've been building engines that turn 18,000 RPM for a long time Don't forget that it's electronic equipment that's used to detect imbalances and one degree of rotation at 10,000 RPM is an eternity to digital electronics. Even at a lowly 100MHz, the electronics would be waiting one thousand six hundred clock ticks for just one degree of crank rotation! No wonder doing dynamic balancing on turbines at 200,000 RPM isn't exactly rocket science

With regard to engines, I think the answer is that you don't use large heavy components.... alternate KISS principle, "keep it small, stoopid!" It's no coincidence that the F1 engines have many small cylinders and run a pretty short stroke, oh and pneumatic valve actuators, and.... and... oh if you really believe that you can run an EJ series at 9500 RPM and have it last, have a chat with Tony Rigoli, he's been running those kind of revs for ages... I'm sure he can tell you a few war stories

Cheers,

Pat.

carlos_hiraoka

remember one thing they are talking about US HP's

Pavlo

Pat,

I think david was thinking they balance the rotating assembly, but when i read it, I'm sure Ron was just on about the crank.

That said, I'm pretty sure you can balance the assembly, but I will stick to the ('kin accurate) scales at work.

Paul

pat

Pavlo,

I have no issue whatsoever with another honest strong engine, and it does appear to be a pretty well specced lump, it's good for competition between suppliers and allows greater choice for buyers, what I do object to is an engine being marketed as a RELIABLE 800 BHP lump, which has not been proven, and any effort to do such would probably result in the destruction of the engine.

Point about stroke taken, so if we recompute for the new displacement then we end up with 720 BHP at 2.4 litres to have the same specific output as the Prodrive 600 BHP engines. My concern is with regard to the bearings, which aren't the largest an engine has ever been endowed with. At a poor 16mm wide, the big ends are smaller than even a Pinto! Whatever you do with the bore and stroke you're still limited by the bearings, and let's make no mistake here, by far the biggest load the bearing ever sees is at the top of the exhaust stroke, the power stroke is pitifully small in comparison. So revs will kill the bearings; that's why a larger displacement engine revved to lower RPM will be less stressed than a smaller displacement engine revved higher to get the same power.

At 9000 RPM a 2.4 litre engine would need to be fed with about 2.5 bar boost to make 800 BHP at the crank. Now think about the thermal stress on the piston crowns due to this, especially since the piston only gets 6 milliseconds rest between each power stroke. Just how long is the piston going to last with this abuse, even if it's a good quality forged item?

Cheers,

Pat.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Research suggests that there is nothing new here - although it looks like a job well done

Price is competitive but not startling - although as I said elsewhere - the real money is not making the engine - the drivetrain, electronics, fueling, pipework are what absorb money or time in large quantities!

US Horses are smaller as you went on to NASIOC to prove Andy

When a car with this engine beats Mr Rigolis times then I will be a believer

Hopefully pudding and proof will be in close proximity in the UK in the next few weeks

Rannoch

[Edited by Rannoch - 2/18/2003 9:24:53 PM]

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Also curious that such a company offering this, only registered on the forum in Dec 2002. Surely if they were into things in such a big way they would have been made known on the forums more than a month ago. Could it possibly be someone trying to rip people off???

Originally posted by Axis Power Racing
"chicks- final displacement is 2.4ltr. shorter rods and smaller bore than stock help with high rpms and overall balance."

I always thought shorter rods were bad????

Quote " No, I start with 2.5 cases and after sleeving them, reduce the bore a little."

Im sure it says EJ22 on the top of that block?????

MrContro

Apparently the New Evo modded by Norris Designs produces 771BHP from 2159cc running 2.5bar

Don't know how reliable it will be though but I think their previous(587BHP) car had quite a bit of stick.

I wonder what revs its running though.

BoxerFlat4

Ok, time to spill some beans, as it were. I've been discussing with Ron, main man at Axis, about this engine conversion for awhile. Couple of points I'd make :-

ustolemyname??stevieturbo - If you read the first post again, you'll notice he mentions that although the conversion is for the EJ25 block, the pictures posted are from a EJ22 block he's used. I would assume this is because the EJ25 block is brand new, and from what I gather from Ron, rather expensive to buy from the Subaru dealers !



pat - I understand fron Ron that he's run the engine up to 37 PSI, so your calculation is correct. I'm waiting to here back from him as to time/rev testing loads, but I do know the engine lasted more than a few seconds : he even injected some NO2 for over 10 seconds ! As you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating... Regarding the 9000 rev range, I agree this sounds extremly painful, but the entire valvetrain is upgraded/replaced, so pending some test data back from him, I'm willing to go on some faith for awhile.

My final point is - over the last couple of years, the limits of what could be achieved with the Subaru engines has been dramtically increasing, as many of the ScoobyNet readers will know. Where once 350BHP seemed to be the limit of the dedicated tuner, and 400+ the limits of the rich and famous, we now know not to be the case. I agree, much needs to be proved regarding these claims, but to dismiss them out of hand before giving the guy a chance seems a little churlish. He may well be a BS'ter of the highest calibre - but what if he isn't ?

pat

BF4,

I would be interested to know what turbo he was using to get that kind of flow, it'de be at the upper limit of a Garrett GT40/42, which would make it big time lag city. For what it's worth, the last engine we ran on the bench dyno at that kind of boost had a boost threshold around 3600 RPM, so not much useable boost on the road until 4000 RPM... the GT40/42 would be even higher up the rev range, making it rather less than ideal as a road car, assuming that it would actually hold together.

For what it's worth I've seen a Subaru engine hold together on a dyno at over 40 PSI only to later fail while relatively unstressed; hence my point about reliability... just because it ran fine on the dyno didn't make it reliable.

With regard to nitrous, it actually cools the combustion chambers so it's not really indicative of what would happen in the real world. It always makes me laugh when I see people fit nitrous, it's sort of a half-engineered solution. For my money I'de prefer to either a) do the job properly by changing the supercharging system to cater for the higher flow or b) go the whole hog and run methanol, nitromethane or hydrazine

The other thing that struck me as being rather odd is that, unless my eyes deceive me, the kit doesn't include new camshafts, and given the limitations of the stock ones (won't get too carried away with details, but suffice to say that there is no point, in revving them to 9000).

The piston design doesn't seem any different to a normal Subaru piston, which itself isn't a shining example of leading edge combustion space geometry They do look quite strong Guess would be that they are Wiseco, a couple of features are strangely reminiscent of Wisecos... I like Wisecos, not quite as much as JEs but almost

The rods I'll reserve judgement on, personally I'de have gone for a different design, the loads on a rod in a turbo motor is somewhat different to an NA motor, and you can't take what works well in one and expect it to work well in another, but I do like the little end oil feed

I sincerely hope that it all works out and is reliable for you, I would derive no satisfaction from being proven right if it were at
the expense of someone else's engine....

With regard to your comments about what is possible with Subaru engines, I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that there were EJ20s pushing a reliable 400 BHP back in the early nineties, our oriental friends have been getting large power out of these engines for quite some time also. What is happening is that it's getting easier to source the bits you need to achieve the power goals... if you think back about 3 years you'de have been hard pushed to find something as simple as a 550cc injector!

I'm not dismissing the claims, I'm just very sceptical. At no point did I say "no, can't be done", and at no point did I ever dispute that the chap actually got the figures on the dyno. My reservations are with respect to claimed reliability. To make a claim that it is reliable without having used it in anger for at least 30,000 miles seems a little premature. It is one thing to say "I built an 800 BHP EJ series motor", it's something entirely different selling it under the premise that it will last at that kind of output....

Cheers,

Pat.

axis power racing

test

axis power racing

Ok, I guess I better clear a few things up before this spills over into a major mis-communication problem.

First things first-I do not sell a 800hp ej series motor. I did make over 800hp from one, but that is not what I am selling. What I offer is a motor that will happily live at anything less than 600hp. The engine I used to make 800hp used the identical parts I install in all my motors(pistons, rods, crank, sleeves, bigger head studs)but the heads were very different and a little more work was involved in prepping the case. If you notice, in the thread where I listed the engines ready for sale, it is a shortblock assembly. For $5750 USD, you get a short motor that will take over 30psi and is balanced to 10,000rpms. It is not a balanced rotating assembly, but everything is balanced to it's corresponding part, matched, and then assembled. The cranks are actually spun balanced to 12,000rpms using the newest balancing machine available in the US.
There seems to be quite some confusion on just how much power can be made with a ej series motor. Well, over here we have several that are making over 500hp, and thats with bone stock internals on a wrx 2.0 motor. I know of several that are making 380-400 at the wheels with basic addons and off-the shelf items. There are several guys here running in the mid to low 11s on stock motor and even a couple pushing high tens, still on the stock 2.0 bottom end. And we get the ****ty version with cast pistons and crappier rings.
Here's a small list of what I had to use to achieve 800hp.
2.5 phase II case sleeved and tapped for 13mm head studs. We did not close the deck. The sleeves provide all the strength we will ever need. Stock 2.5 crank balance and polished. I do not do any cutting or lightening or machining of the crank. It's a very good crank stock and we just go over it a little. Nitrating is a mistake. I use custom Ross pistons and Pauter rods. The pistons I use are custom made to my design and are on par with the cosworth items Jun sells. The rods I use are better. They are not only lighter, but stronger and less resistant to bending or breaking. The sleeves are custom ductile iron units that are 3/8 inch thick at the thickest part. They also have a flange at the top to accomadate oring or special made flame ring gaskets. There is over 40%more surface sealing area at the top of the bore alone. This really helps with head gasket sealing. As stated above, I use custom 13mm head studs that use a 1/2" by 13 thread pitch. This is the strongest thread pitch and size available without removing material from the parent bore of the head bolt hole. With this combo, you can run 500-600hp all day long. NO PROBLEMS. I had to make custom intake and exhaust manifolds and use 8 injectors, 4 550cc and 4 750cc.

Now, there was a statement about running 800hp for many miles and over long periods of time. Where in the world is there a road that you can do this on? Even here in the states, the longest straight stretch of road is only just over 5 miles. In the real world, revs vary and boost varies and whatnot. Even with motorsports racing, the engines are only really stressed for short periods of time. It isn't full throttle everywhere. Yes, running at levels of 800hp for extended periods of time will destroy my motor. That will destroy almost any motor. Unless you spend at least 10 times what my engine cost. I stated that my motor was tested to over 800hp because it was. I don't expect anyone to make 800hp with one of my motors. I even tell potential customers that that level of power is not achievable unless you have much money and it is only to be used for drag racing. I explain to everyone who inquires that in the real world, anything over 600 is going to cost money and although I can build it, I have yet to sell one of those types.
So, what I offer is a reasonably priced option of ej series motor that will not only outpower any other similarily priced engine, but also outlast it. No doubts. I have over $300,000USD in bills for the development of my motor, and I doubt many others have spent that kind of money on a Subaru engine.
Btw, the valvetrain is good to 9500rpms. I have a company that makes racing motorcycle cylinder head components make my parts and they helped me tremendously with the development. They have some stuff that will go 18,000rpms, but that's over the top for what I need. They have done their homework with frequencies and thermal loads and whatever you want to throw out. If they can make a hyabusa rev to the moon, they can make a subaru spin 9500.
I will try my best to visit this forum as much as I can. I am just a one person operation and subaru's are not my only thing. I also do some mazda miata stuff and turbo vw. I have two cars entered in the car and driver supertuner challenge that have to be finished in a month, and I am limited on free time at the moment.
I hope this kind of clears things up. And for all the non-believers, I will have the first wrx in the 8s. Guaranteed. If the 4cyl can't cut it, I have a 6cyl on backup that will push over 1000hp, and that's before I cranked the boost up. I am having a hard time finding someone who can build a trans that will withstand the power, but it's in the works.
Thanks
Ron

john banks

Thanks Ron for your input here. You said previously that the rods you supplied were only for Phase II, but can we use Phase I Pauter rods with your kit to go with our Phase I crank?

[Edited by john banks - 2/19/2003 11:41:23 AM]

pat

Hiya Ron!

Thank you for taking the time to post up on here to clarify the situation.

With regard to 800 BHP engines, it's good to see that you aren't actually selling an 800 BHP motor, it was just that the thread title suggested it was At up to 600 BHP it should be fine, that's a much more realistic figure for it to hold together at Also good to see that the 800 BHP engine you had was using some rather special heads... like I said, I never doubted that it could or had been done, just the manner in which it appeared to be being marketed. The implication was that one could buy the motor and make 800 BHP, but as you no doubt know, having gone to the trouble of actually doing it, it is somewhat more involved than that

With regard to dynamic balancing, the method you employed is the best method available at the price... explicit dynamic balancing of an assembled bottom end is rather costly, but if you're an F1 team out to win then you can justify it. Implicit balancing as used by yourself and any other decent engine builder is the next best thing.... if the crank is in itself balanced, and each of the components weigh the same, then the whole thing should be pretty much balanced too.

With regard to a stock motor making 500 BHP, again I do not doubt that it can be done, but the cast pistons won't want to play that game for very long... Guess that equates to just over 400 BHP in UK terms (difference between SAE and ISO/DIN power) which seems sensible. With 380-400 at the wheels your tranny won't hold together very long

With regard to stock itnernals, the only engines that seem to get endowed with reasonable stuff out of the box are the STi lumps, and they are really quite sweet for a stock motor. The heads are better as well, which really helps to free up the power, allowing more air in at the top where it's needed.

Your rods are *less* resistant to breaking and bending? Sure that came out of the keyboard right? With regard to the sleeves, guess that you'll be using either Wills or Helicoflex rings?

Injector sizing is roughly what I would have expected for the output, but your duty cycles seem too low. At 60% you'de only be getting sufficient fuel for about 560 BHP, however at higher duty cycles I think they'de be fine for 800 I'de have thought you need about 85% duty cycle, which is just about perfect.

With regard to longevity on the road, you are right, there are few places that you can actually use the power. The Autobahn springs to mind, where there is no speed limit, there's nothing to stop you running your car at 200 MPH But here in the UK the roads are so conjested that you can't really have a play anymore anyway, thanks to consective governments taking tax payers money (road tax) and spending it on everything but roads. So those enthusiastic enough to go to the trouble of building such an engine will either want to use it as a track day car, or run it competitively in hill climbs or sprints, or quarter miles. The quarter miles are brutal on the tranny, but not on the engine. The track days are the opposite, there's little point in dumping the clutch when you know there's a huge wave of torque waiting for the turbo to spool up to be unleased. I've spent over an hour in "full on loon" mode out on track in one session alone, it's relentless on the engine, and it did empty the fuel tank.... most people won't stay out that long, but 20 minutes is sensible; so the acid question is "can the engine survive being on full load for 20 minutes, with only a very small amount of respite during gear changes and braking zones?"

Glad you agree the loading the motor up continuously will lead to its demise... if you want to make that kind of power reliable, the only way, IMVHO, is through displacement. I doubt that even my 3.3 litre flat six will survive 800 BHP for too long. A blown big block Chevy on the other hand will just laugh at 800 BHP and keep going, and going, and going Even if you spent 10 times what your engine cost, I seriously doubt that an EJ series would last very long at that kind of output.

Ah, now I spot the bit about drag racing... yeah, that makes much more sense now Like I said above, 1/4 doesn't really stress the engine anywhere near what a race or track day does.

Good to see bike shops getting involved with the heads, they really have a wealth of experience when it comes to high revving heads, because it's what they do all the time My main concern about such high revs, as stated, are the big end shells.... heads can be made to rev high because there is relatively little inertia to overcome

Good luck with your six cylinder lump, if you're using the EG33, you came to the same conclusion that I did, if it's the EZ30, then I wish you luck with that exhaust port. LOL

Cheers,

Pat.

axis power racing

Yeah, we are trying to figure out what we are going to do about the exhaust port on the ez30. We first thought we wanted to twin turbo it, but now we are looking at adapting a 10-71 blower. We have been looking at the port and figuring out how we can weld in some material so we can make it flow. Besides, how cool would a new body wagon look with a 3plate intake poking out the hood sitting on top of that hugh blower and just knowing it will run very hard. We are trying to aim for the 7s, but know we are a long way from that. The chassis is going to be built around the motor and drivetrain to reduce weight and it's going to run a complete carbon body. We are doing our absolute best to keep it 4wd, but can't get anybody to step up and offer an auto that will stay together. We have an auto that will take 750hp without too much hassle, but anything over that and it will just chew it up. If we can't do it 4wd, then it's pro-modified style all the way. But only with a twist. If only subaru had a good flat 8.

Pavlo

2 blocks welded together!

Tadaaaaa!

Dizzy

Spy photo's from Dave's garage after Pavlo's leaked info

SecretAgentMan

OOOOOHHH...the old F1 engine....mmmmmelikes.

A rumour claims our turnip supercar - the Koenigsegg - will have this engine someday. I know they've got a cupboard full of drawings...

/J

David_Wallis

lol

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Oh, great, this can only end in tears, Pat's got two EG33's and a spare Legacy to bolt them to