STi-Frenchie

I was looking under the bonnet today (see below) and noticed that the tank where the coolant goes looks to be about 1/4 full. Kind of surprised me as the car is only 3 months young.

What coolant should I use to top her up with?

Just wondering if this is related but I noticed a strange whining sound for the first time when I was giving the car a bit of a blast today. It was happening when I was shifting up the gears quickly and only in 3rd and 4th when the rev counter was between 5 and 6,000rpm. The sound was like the sound kids get when they put a bit of card against the spokes of a bicycle and then turn the wheel quickly...except of course this was quieter and a lot higher pitched. It seemed to be coming from the front passenger side...so I looked under the bonnet but my very untrained eyes didn't see anything out of the ordinary - like a rat or small animal in there

Thanks in advance for any help.

Claudius

Hi Frenchie

The LHD STIs have a fault in the map and detonate. That is probably what you heard. Your engine will probably blow up just like the other 30 in France that have already blown up. No worries as I expect you have a warranty, but you should get an ECU programmed after the engine blows. That way you can keep the new engine working fine.

Later

Claudius

STi-Frenchie

Hi Claudius, please tell me you are not serious !

Half of the time when I'm on the road I have my kids in the car so the thought of an engine blow out is not something I'd relish...is there any way this threat of an imminent engine failure can be dealt with beforehand or would my dealer just laugh at the idea?

Claudius

Hi Frenchie

I am unfortunately being very serious. The best thing that could happen is the engine blows and you get a new one and get a proper engine management without the fault that is present in yours. What happens is that for 4 to 5 seconds, under WOT, you dont get any fuel at all, and then it becomes overly rich (on a side note, I revealed this on a French forum and was banned as a result). There are some timing issues, too, I believe, but cannot confirm.

Dont worry about your children: the engine just fails, no piston will be thrown out of the bloc. You'll just have to pull over...

The thing is, if you get a good ECU now, then you will run fine, but still have the little wear marks on the pistons; I suppose you'd rather have a perfectly new engine? I say let it blow, but I'm a little crazy.

You could get your dealer to take off the head and look at the pistons if you want confirmation.

I do not know if your dealer would laugh at the idea of an engine failure or if Subaru have released any dealer info regarding this matter, but I would assume it is a matter of personality and professionalism along with how well he keeps up with what's happening in the Continental STI world.

I am happy to provide you with proof of the above statements as well as the email address of my mate Jean-Guillaume who showed me his broken piston (out of his 10,000 motorway km STI) at the Nogaro racetrack in October 2002.

Take care

Claudius

[Edited by Claudius - 1/18/2003 8:02:10 PM]

STi-Frenchie

Thanks for the advice Claudius. I'm a little late in replying as I was up in the Jura today having fun on the roads around Mijoux and Lelex. I noticed that noise again just once but as I had the family in the car with me I wasn't driving the car hard. Going up through the gears normally doesn't produce the sound and my wife said she couldn't hear anything when I mentioned it to her but there's definitely something there which is annoying me.

Hmm...I wonder...maybe if the engine blows I could wrangle an new blob-eye out of them as a replacement?

Well....I can dream

Dumb question time...what does WOT stand for?

Again, thank you very much for your advice, it is much appreciated.

Claudius

WOT = Wide Open Throttle.

Try accelerating fully from 4,000 rpms in 4th or 5th gear: go through the gears, close throttle at 5,000 rpms in 4th gear, wait till you are down to 4,000 rpms, open throttle fully and check if you hear the noise. Or even better try in 5th.

STi-Frenchie

I'll try that...I'll have to think about where I'm going to try it first...somewhere nice and quiet with not many cars and no gendarmes around and a bit of a stretch where I can put my foot down.

(10 minutes later)

I think I know just the place

Deep Singh

I have never heard so much twaddle in my life.Claudius,you are making massive sweeping statements based on very little.Your advice is next to useless.Telling someone that you know for certain that they are detting and their engine is about to blow when you have never set eyes(or ears) on their car.Instead of waffling on about your very basic knowlegde on engine management(hence you thinking a Power FC is sophisticated) the best advice that could be given is to fit a knock detector of some kind so Frechie can confirm.
Claudius,you have decided to tell someone that their engine is about to fail on the basis of some vague sound descriptions. Why d'ont you go back to Evoland,or is it boring there?

Claudius

Oh yeah? Dont you ever read your posts on scoobynet, then?

You're right; 30 cars blown up in just under a year in one country, when over 300 were sold, isnt that much. Sorry that upset you

Absolutely. Where's your advice? Or are you just attacking me when you dont know jack about the issue here?

I'm not saying it is, I am saying it has happened before and that I think it is. It's pretty obvious I'm not sure, given that I havent seen the car. I would have imagined that even someone like you would have understood that...

Do I? Show me where.

No. Re-read

Why dont you go back to school, learn how to spell and politely communicate with others and then come back? Would probably take too long...

pat

Seeing as Claudius has successfully managed to not answer the question about coolant and detract from the original purpose of this thread, I'de suggest that unless Subaru have stopped using the green coolant, you get a bottle of the stuff from your local friendly Subaru garage. Alternatively, if you prefer to run blue coolant then completely drain the coolant and re-fill with blue coolant, but don't mix types unless you have no choice (ie it's overheating and you need coolant to get you home), then change at earliest opportunity.

With regard to the noise, find it somewhat unlikely that it's detting, although not impossible. If memory does not deceive me, there is virtually no limit to how much advance the MY01 ECU can pull out to control det, and the timing is already miles away from "the edge". Perhaps a more likely cause of the failures is that people have fitted after market air filters which cause the car to run very lean, and then blow up. Unfortunately these manufacturers are more motivated by money than providing a good product so they don't tell you that you absolutely *MUST* have the car remapped to stop it blowing up. I won't name manufacturers, the guilty know who they are. My advice is that unless it's a panel filter, don't fit it unless you're getting a remap, and then only fit it just before the remap. This applies to Model Year 01 onwards.

Cheers,

Pat.

BigDude

Hi STi-Frenchie,

I second Deep Singh and Pat's comments. As for Claudius'comments?
PLEASE!!!

I've been reading all these gloom and doom messages about STi7s blowing up in GB but I have my doubts. Also some of the reasons for engine blow ups may be a confusion with the 6 gears and some drivers (not trying to offend anyone) down shifting to 2nd instead of 4th. Also a lot of people are using 0w-30; 0w-40; 5w-30; 5w-40 oils (which are way to thin and break down to easily)and even at times semi synthetic. I really only recommend full synthetic oils such as Castrol RS 10w60, Mobil 1 and Motul 15w-50 and any other good oil brand in 10w-60 and 15w-50. And use only the original Subaru air filter(dry), not aftermarket ones that are usually oil impregnated. I had my STi7 tuned by Digit Power to 305PS/427Nm and have had nothing but fun. Often drive to Stuttgart, Germany at speeds between 200-220km and have never had a problem. I now have over 30,000km. Digit Power also came in 3rd with an STi7 tuned identical to mine - 305/427- in the 24hr Tuner Grand Prix at the Hockenheimring in front of M3s, RS4s etc... Not bad eh?
Contact me if you ever come close to Zurich.
Cheers!

Claudius

I agree with the oil comment.

Later

Claudius

STi-Frenchie

Thanks for the comments everyone. As the car is due in for it's 10,000km service soon I think I'll wait until then (shouldn't be long the way I'm rattling up the kms). I have to go see about getting the coolant at the dealers sometime this week and noticed today that I need to top up the oil as well so that advice is very welcome and very timely.

Hmm...Digit Power...305bhp...drool! I might be able to get that one past the wife without her seeing it...unlike the spoiler we've been "debating" about. Kid's clothes? What do they need clothes for?

Claudius

FYI, I have just been reading the posts made THIS WEEK on the Italian Subaru Club. 3 STIs have blown up. A tuner there confirms what I have said.

Dont take it from me, go check it out: www.subaruclub.it

Later

Claudius

Claudius

Sorry, just checked again. 4 have blow the engine, 3 with PPP and 1 standard. 2nd piston. Someone else said 3rd. I guess that depends from where you look at the engine...

Later

Claudius

Deep Singh

Claudius,this is the last time I'll bother to reply to your posts,they are just not worth it.I never denied that there maybe a problem with STi7 engines.We've been discussing it on this board from before Christmas.What I found irresponsible was your immediate diagonoses of terminal det in Frenchies car.The sound he described does'nt even tally with the classical description of it.He seemed to be instructing him as though you are some kind of expert and everyone here knows you are not.As Pat said you did'nt even answer his question about the coolant because you d'ont know.
As for the Power FC issue,I read the rubbish you wrote in Trouts post about the Motec.
'go back to school and learn to spell'..there is nothing wrong with my spelling,just not very good with keyboards and usually in a rush.If you would like to compare schooling/education/qualifications I think you'll end up looking even more stupid than you already do.
The funniest thing is that for someone who does'nt own a Subaru you spend alot of time reading UK,French and Italian Subaru sites.

Claudius

Very good. I never asked you to reply. Go away

I knew it before that, but I'm not showing it off like you do.

You have no clue what I know or dont know. What's your point? If you want an online fight, go get someone else.

Re-read your post, then! LOL

Why dont you read up on the specs of the Motec ECUs, then, if you dont agree with me?

You got that the wrong way around!

How would you know what cars I own or dont own? You dont know jack, man. Go away!

Indeed. That's part of the reason why I know so much more than you angry intolerant person

mutant_matt

OK, OK, guys, calm down.

Claudius, if you are going to make those sort of claims, it would be useful and helpful if you could post up some of your supporting facts. Then, (hopefully), people would take you a little more seriously.

I'm sure you don't care if Deep takes you seriously or not but I'm sure it would be very useful for STi-Frenchie, and possibly others if you could share the details of what you are talking about, here on the board rather than privately by email. If you can't do so for whatever reason, then fair enough.

I was under the impression that the ECU maps for all EU STi cars, regardless of LHD or RHD were the same. If you (or anyone else for that matter) knows otherwise, it would be useful to know because either a) they are different b) we have the same issue over here and haven't spotted it yet or c) you are talking rubbish (:P) (well, I had to drop that it didn't I? )

Seriously, let us know,

Ta,

Matt

STi-Frenchie

Um...the car hasn't gone boom-bang-a-bang yet although I've hardly been pushing it the last couple of days. The noise is still there and the more I hear it, the more I think I can describe it and at least I can produce it at will - 3rd gear, about 5600k rpm. It's definitely coming from the (right side of the car) passenger side and it sounds really like one of those plastic windmill type things that you would get at fairs as a kid. You know when the wind goes through the windmill it makes this plasticky flip-flip-flip sound? This is the same but considerably faster. Could it be the air filter? Well, something up near the windscreen maybe and that's the only thing I can tell from the manual.

I was running low on oil (very low) and was sure I wouldn't make it to my dealer this week to find out what they'd done at the 1600km service, so posted another question in Drivetrain about what I should do...cutting a long story short, I ended up calling the dealer and telling them I needed to see them tonight even if it was after normal working hours. To their credit, they stuck around until I got there and I also described the problem to them. Whilst they didn't diagnose the problem there and then they assured me that I should have no problems until my service at 10k which will be very soon. They sorted me out with my oil worries and told me my coolant level didn't need sorting out yet (my ignorance in reading the manual in French is starting to show up...badly).

So, whilst I don't have a result on the noise problem, I'm sorted with the coolant I didn't need, and the oil which I did. I appreciate you guys taking the time to bear with this non-mechanically-minded fellow scooby driver. I don't like to see you guys fighting as I know each of you in your own way is trying to be helpful and it IS much appreciated.

Claudius

Hi Frenchie,

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to start a fight (and I dont think I did).

If your noise sounds like a plastic noise, it could be anything, maybe the wheelarch plastic come loose or something?

I dont know if your car dets, if it will ever det, if it will blow or not; I am simply saying it has happened more than once, in fact 32 times I know of, and that that's unusual. It was found out that the ECU does not supply fuel for 5 s under WOT and that det was relatively high on an STI that a friend of mine tested.

Claudius

Hi matt

I provided a link to the Italian Subaru Club where I invite you to go and read up on the issue. One person is currently having his car fixed, and another stated that 3 other cars have blown up, which everybody else knew and commented on.

I emailed my friend Jean Guillaume who had his standard STI blow up after less than 10,000 km. He showed me the piston in question a few months ago. I asked him to send me a picture of his piston. Now I dont know if you will accept that as proof. I could ask him to email you if you like (not sure if he speaks English though). I could also try and get someone to take a picture of the knockmeter connected to the car if that helps. Do you want me to try and get a list of STI owners whose cars have blown up together? Let me know what you want.

I believe the maps to be different, but I couldnt tell for sure. One indicator may be that a LHD STI makes 265bhp and a RHD 280. I also heard the blocs are different, but unless we open one of each, how can we tell for sure?

mutant_matt

Claudius,

I'll have a read of that link, ta AFAIK, the EU STi's are the same as the UK STi's as I believe that there are currently two main models (not including the special editions and groupN targeted type models), the 276bhp JDM model and the 260bhp "Rest of the World" model (which even Australia and New Zeland now get (previously they tended to get the JDM models)). Perhaps the LHD models get a different map but I don't see why they would, I mean, it would push the cost up and for what purpose? Also, how do you know that the problem is that the fuel is cut for 5 seconds? I mean, that's a long time and something you would be surprised to find in a production car and something you would think unlikely that a) Subaru would not spot b) that they wouldn't do something about?

I've experienced fuel surge in Subaru's before and it usually lasts less than a second - this does not sound like what you are talking about!

No need on the piston picture front () STi's here have blown up too, some for unknown (or undisclosed) reasons, some for obvious ones. John Felstead drove a demo STi last year and said it was audibly detting and he suspected (or perhaps actually saw) it was running on NUL. Another car had someone go from sixth to third by mistake instead of sixth to fifth and was also (IIRC) a demo car. Demo cars get abused, don't get run in and are often run on NUL so I guess this is not surprising but a few people here have had their cars blow up too, some who say they have run them in properly, have treated them well and have had them serviced correctly.

If it was this 5 seconds of no fuel you mention, that would be really noticable to the driver?

Ta,

Matt.

Claudius

A French tuner told me that. He measured it with a wideband lambda sensor (Sard Analyzer).

That's exactly what we are wondering here!

A common guess is that it will be cheaper to get those whose cars blow a new bloc than to make a recall / get bad reputation. In addition to that, they dont sell many cars here, and many arent used as daily drivers, so not all blow. Especially since the AFR gets very rich after 4500 rpms and a lot of people just hammer the car around a back road on the weekend, so no failures there.

I wonder what that could be...

So what? I'd imagine the ECU would pull the timing and the car simply be slightly slower?

Of course. Everybody or 99% of people who buy a car for £30k treat it well, I suppose. People ask about running the car in, rpms, boost, etc, just like here. They want their pride and joy to last. The thing is they dont always last.

I'd like to thank you for being a little more open-minded than that deep guy (no idea what his problem is, I hope he keeps his promise and doesnt answer me again) and for showing interest in the issue. I'm not talking rubbish, I'm just saying what I almost certainly know for fact (I say almost because I havent actually seen an STI blow or det, but I have met owners and tuners who have and cannot see why they would lie).

Later

Claudius

pat

Let's get one thing straight, if there is no fuel, there is no power, and you really would have to have absolutely zero driving ability not to notice that the car is actually slowing down (I don't mean accelerating less hard, I mean slowing down)! If you want to know what it feels like, find an empty-ish dual carriageway, take the car up to about 70MPH then turn the ignition off and floor the accelerator (ie it's moving air but has no fuel and no spark). Doesn't go too well, does it?

So the only issue that there might be is that there is INSUFFICIENT fuel, and this is guaranteed to happen with pretty much any after market air filter that does not use the original air box. So I wonder how many of these cars that have blown up have had air filters, but the owners are keeping quiet about it because they put in a warranty claim? Anyway, today's lesson is: fit non-panel air filter, blow up car.

With regard to EU maps, I will check tomorrow... but I doubt that they're any different to the UK ones. As for the sound of det, it's quite ironic how many people claim to know what it sounds like but who haven't actually ever heard it. The best way to describe it is like a pin falling into a tin can, it's quite distinctive but if you can hear it inside a Subaru then there is massive det.

With det cans on I can hear det before the ECU and knocklink can (not even bottom light on the knocklink), when the Knocklink lights the big red LED you can't hear it in the car, so when you can actually hear it inside the car you have a very serious issue. I've seen the KnockLink light up to red with the stock ECU, but not heard the det, so it's mild transition det. Normal det you can hear the engine get sparkly first then it dets, with transition it just comes out of the blue, the engine can be running as sweet as anything, quiet, not a hint of sparkle, then bang, one det, and then back to silence.... no ECU in the world can prevent that, because there's nothing to indicate that it is going to happen. The only thing that you can do is know the timing back even further away from optimal just on the off chance that there might be some transition det.

I'm out mapping an STi VII tomorrow, so I'll have a listen to it with the det cans on to see if there is any truth the the stories of the ECU not retarding the ignition when it starts detting. Frankly I find it hard to believe, but there may be mitigating circumstances which may produce this effect... I've seen a couple of STi V cars run into det and the ECU did nothing, but they had full exhaust systems on, and you could feel they were running lean even on cruise, so it's no surpirse that they ran hot under load and started detting. Anyway, I'll post up again tomorro with details of what I could hear through the cans.

Cheers,

Pat.

mutant_matt

Pat,

Has Stephen Done seen any LHD STi MY02's? If he has then he would probably know if the maps are different?

If the ECU can pull back the timing as far as it likes, this would imply that most of the time, it should be able to avoid det (at the cost of power)? If so, then it shouldn't matter if NUL is used (apart from poor performace)?

So, who wants to offer their STi as a test case for Pat then?

Ta,

Matt

Deep Singh

Claudius,I did'nt 'promise' I would'nt reply.(LOL).No more fighting ok? If my initial reply seemed aggressive,I did'nt mean it to.It just seemed a tad over the top to tell some guy with a strange noise under his bonnet that he most likely had terminal det and was about to have his engine blow.Even you agree now that it sounds like something else.I'm not denying for a minute that there maybe/is an issue with the mapping/pistons on the STi.If you read the thread 'STi7....bang' you'll see I was very vocal about the numbers of cars that seemed to have gone bang,and that we needed a decent explanation of why.
We seemed to have got into confrontational posts that d'ont help anyone so lets agree to stop.Any infomation you have is appreciated by us all.
You seem to think that over 30 have gone bang so far.Are you sure about this number?
Deep.

Claudius

Hi Deep

Good to see you're getting a little more reasonable. There's not really anything to fight over, is there?

I have just read on the Italian forum that there could be a problem with the fuel pressure regulator tube bending or swirling or something, reducing fuel pressure. Not sure, my Italian isnt that good, but that was mentioned by a tuner there.

Someone else there mentioned 3 cars gone bang, and one other recently, so that's four. 27 in France: I know this from a Franch tuner who has already installed 4 stroker kits in STIs and mapped other STIs with new engines after they blew. He measured over 38% knock at 4000 - 4500 rpms and that lean spot I mentioned, which go together.

mutant_matt

Claudius,

Have you got the URL on the Italian BBS as my Italian is non existant so I have to resort to Babelfish and whilst I can just about follow threads, I couldn't find the one you mentioned.

I wonder if the LHD cars are suffering from a mechanical problem of some kind related to being LHD (as opposed to an ECU problem). The FPR/pipe you mentioned made me wonder? (and that would then backup my assertion that the ECU/map is the same)

Matt

Deep Singh

Hi Claudius,the number of French ones at 3o fascinates me.What number do they have to get to before ordering a recall? Ipresume its a financial equation.

Claudius

We think it's a financial thing as well. Not that many will blow up, and after a year, the owner will have to pay...

Matt, the url is www.subaruclub.it. Once you get there, click on "forum".

Later

Claudius