harvey

iTrader: (48)

This is the product blurb as advertised on Scoobynet.
Once again Australia have come up with the goods.

Some serious R+D has gone into this product, andafter much testing of materials, heat treatments, andtooth profiles, this kit is guaranteed strong enough for cars running up to 450bhp, and 400ftlbs of torque.

This kit has been tested in cars, in both Australia, and the UK, with power levels exceeding the guaranteed limits, and has even survived the drag strip.

Anybody know how long that has been the advertising claim?
Just wondering because until recently there were no Scoobies in the UK with 450bhp and 400ftlbs and certainly none running PAR kits that I am aware of.

RB5SCOTT

Stop stirring Harvey

Give me a couple of weeks to get run in and mapped and i will put your theory's to the test

Adam M

didn't mark do a couple of thousand miles with the box in his own car running at well over 500lbft including some heavy launches at totb? to my knowledge the only impreza in the UK to have run WELL over an engine dyno proven 500lbft and 500bhp on the road.

john banks

A couple of thousand miles is not a test. Mine lasted a few weeks after run in, a couple of thousand miles.

I could sell UK gearboxes and advertise them as tested on the dragstrip and to 440 BHP and >350 lbft because Andy ran one and it lasted a few weeks and a few thousand miles. I could sell UK engines as tested to >400 BHP. I would be a little dishonest and stupid to do this and would get everything I deserved when the testing I claimed was exposed to be so inadequate.

I suspect my failure was earlier than others because most others in the UK at least have not run it with decent torque for a decent amount of time. Or then again maybe it is a bad batch, but the number of failures suggests otherwise? Presumably a phenomenon like metal fatigue will have something like an exponential drop in mean time between failures - it could last weeks at 400lbft, months at 350 lbft, years at 300 lbft?

john banks

Note to say that I very much appreciate Harvey's counsel in these matters since he has had trouble with aftermarket parts suppliers previously and been successful in resolving this.

I am waiting for a response from Lateral that is more concrete than the open ended suggestion of sending the broken parts back to Australia.

This from the DTI on advice to traders:

"What about manufacturers' guarantees?

The important points to remember are:

(a) the rights conferred on the customer by law are against the person who supplied him with the goods and not against the manufacturer (unless he is also the supplier); and
(b) in a consumer sale, nothing in a manufacturer's guarantee or warranty can take away any of the consumer's rights

It can therefore only be to your customer's advantage to sign and send off manufacturers' guarantee and registration cards. Such signed guarantees may give the customer rights that he would not otherwise have against the manufacturer, but the fact that the manufacturer may guarantee the goods does not affect your obligations to your customer."

And their guidance to consumers:

"Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?

No. You bought the goods from the trader, not the manufacturer, and the trader is liable for any breaches of contract (unless he was acting as the manufacturer's agent)."

This is presently what I am trying to enforce.

There are documented cases of PAR refusing warranty claims and disgruntled customers are only a google search away, some with similar failures to myself, but that is a matter between the supplier and PAR.

You can't take profits from sales and then leave the customer at the mercy of the manufacturer.

john banks

My advice Scott is to keep a very good eye on what is attached to the gearbox magnet. Stuff that sits upright to it when dry is likely to be from gear teeth, the next thing you might have a gear tooth sticking to it. Beware.

I hope it lasts for you and the others who are running it, there is nothing more miserable than changing gearboxes in freezing cold weather, and the stench of gear oil is not at all pleasant, or the garage bills to do it, or in my case my constant indebtedness to T-uk! Above and beyond the call of friendship by a long shot m8! And it is not the first time he has sorted me out in the last few years by any stretch.

Adam M

sorry to hear about your failure john.

But I don't understand what you are trying to enforce against mark.

hasn't he requested the broken part back in order to pursue a warranty claim?

edited because apparently pursue has 1 E and 2Us not vice versa

[Edited by Adam M - 1/9/2004 2:12:06 PM]

john banks

Might be better to discuss further off line Adam. johnbanks@dsl.pipex.com

chiark

It sounds like there's two issues here:
- Harvey claiming that Lateral are making unsubstanciated claims in their advertising
- John having issues with warranty support

John, good luck with the warranty. I don't know the details or specifics, but if something is sold with a warranty by a dealer then I would expect the dealer to handle the warranty. That is purely my expectation though

Harvey, I dunno the answer but it's a good point that you make: there's not many running that sort of power as you say. The only way to resolve the question is to ask Lateral, and I hope Mark will post an answer on here.

Let's hope to get it sorted amically and quickly

Cheers,
Nick.

Andy.F

Adam IIRC when marks car was last running some 18 months ago, the engine output as displayed by the dyno was unrepeatable once it was instaled in the car. Mark himself made reference to severe overfueling when it was at the dragstrip and the subsequent performance on the 500m run was representative of a 350-400 bhp Impreza.

Andy

john banks

What torque has Christian R's car produced on a dyno?

Andy.F

I seem to recall 380 at a group test day (ie slightly more believable)
It is questionable how much flat out 4th gear running it gets at home though

Adam M

fair point andy, but the overfuelling was as a result of marks fuel pumps not leaning out when the equivalents on the dyno at the time were not up to it.

This would have had no effect on peak torque which was still well over 500lbft and I would have thought it was the torque which is the issue.

This is a moot point anyway, since I am not clear of the relevance of UK testing being distinct from AUS testing.

john banks

You might care to look up the reputation of these gearkits on the MRT forums?

Funny you say that overfuelling has no effect on torque.... try fitting 550s onto a 440 designed ECU and then tell me if it has any torque - it actually dies horribly.

Maybe you are saying it was only dropping at the top end?

Not a moot point when you're waiting for a refund on a product that was supposed to be the holy grail of all our 5MT problems.

[Edited by john banks - 1/9/2004 3:44:38 PM]

Andy.F

Adam

Marks car was pumping out black smoke all the way up elvington, I have the video clip if you like ? It was overfueling massively through the midrange as well as top end.

Andy

T-uk

But I don't understand what you are trying to enforce against mark.

hasn't he requested the broken part back in order to pursue a warranty claim?


since this has been brought up could a brainy type comment.

jb's contract is with the seller, the sellers contract with the manufacturer.

therefore if the broken gear-kit is required in court as proof, is jb not quite right to hang onto it, until going to court or an agreement has been reached?

I would have thought the kit being at the other side of the world, would be a problem.

StanS

iTrader: (3)

My 2p worth !
I had what seemed to be an obvious manufacturing defect with a PAR gear set supplied by Mark. You could not wish for a more rapid and professional response by Mark to the problem - car driven into specialist garage (agreed with Mark) with noisy third, box out and stripped, digital photos sent to Australia via Mark, new gearset couriered to the garage same day, parts and labour covered by Mark. Car returned following day. Original gearset returned to Aussie for inspection. Maybe I was lucky with this service - but having dealt with Mark many times, I do not believe that. He has always shown total integrity and desire to supply good products and good service.

(very satisfied customer - no other links with Lateral/Mark etc etc)
Thanks again Mark !
Stan

(editted to say that supplier's response to problems will depend on the type of problem and how caused - mine was straight forward)


[Edited by StanS - 1/9/2004 7:40:54 PM]

EvilBevel

Harvey, you are *self edited*

Mark, you need to sort this out, and do it quickly. The PAR kit is not up to spec IMHO. My problem could have been a freak accident, but in the mean time, it seems more & more problems are surfacing.

John has every right to be mightily pissed off, and you know very well, like me, he is not a full time trouble maker unlike some.

In the mean time I propose we warn people against buying PAR gear sets.

R19KET

Right, I am not prepared to get involved in this, or any other thread, relating to John's gear kit, until such a time that I have emsiled my full reply to John.

I emailed John on the 7th, saying that I would reply fully in the next few days, and this will be done.

Mark.

StickyMicky

ahh but its allready been 3 days

T-uk

stan,

I wonder if you would have been as happy if you had rejected the kit, not taken a replacement?

evil,

answering for jb here. most of the failures have been third but john's was 4th. we had thought that a bad batch may have been made up at some point and john's might have been okay, which is why he decided to keep it, rather than sell it. when 4th let go in very strange circumstances,(poor road conditions,cold car getting warmed slowly, so getting driven gently,no garden gnome ),we decided it was just not worth the risk fitting yet another LP kit.

mark,

really cannot understand why you are trying to draw this out?, with the timings of the year it could have been understood, until you see that you where still posting over the holidays, answering questions on your products.

M0NEY

Not taking sides as always and not sure of the facts.

But Mark, may have been better if you refunded John straight away and took it up with PAR yourself for them to get it fixed?

Im not saying your not going to refund him or are not sorting it out with PAR but by this being posted on a general board, its not good for your company

Going the same way as Impreziv

I have to say i have bought parts of Mark and have gone round to his house and he has always helped me out

R19KET

T-uk,

For the record>

I was up in York from Tues' the 23rd, and returned on the 5th, emailing John on the 6th.

John called me on Mon' the 22nd at about 9pm telling me he thought a tooth may have broken, but hadn't checked it at this time.

He mailed me at 16.37pm on th 23rd, saying that the gearbox had now been taken out, and confirmed that a tooth was missing from 4th.

I replied on the 24th, from York, that I was away until the begining of Jan'.

John emailed me back at 20.43pm on the 6th, and the contents required time to address.

I emailed John on the 7th telling him this.

I will deal with this as soon as possible, but I will not be forced, or pressured into a premature decision, on the best way to deal with the situation.

This is my last post on the subject, until I have emailed John.

Mark.

john banks

My email on 23/12/3 laid out my rejection of the kit and clear request for a refund within a fair timescale of seven working days allowing for the holidays - since you returned on 6/1/4 this is when the seven days starts. You knew that I did not want a replacement and was ordering a six speed, you asked what I wanted to do on 22/12/3 and I said I wanted a refund. In the email on 23/12/3 I reminded you that my contract is with you the supplier not PAR and that I was not going to return the gear kit to you to go away to Australia for a decision from the manufactuer in advance of you offering a refund - this is between you and the manufacturer. That was completely ignored without explanation in your reply on 6/1/4 "Please can you return the complete gear kit, so that I can send it to PAR for inspection" and it was this that prompted the referral to Trading Standards of which I sent you a copy, a complaint to Scoobyshop and the publication on here of my difficulties, along with collection of court documents, advice from Trading Standards and discussion over seeking an engineer's report. Had you simply fulfilled your legal obligation or stated your intention to do so, or even tried to negotiate the terms this would not have gotten out of hand. Had you asked me to return it before the holidays then that could have avoided two weeks of delay and irritation in itself. To be asked without explanation to just return it when you could have asked for this before Xmas when we spoke on the phone is guaranteed to cause aggravation.

I cut you a lot of slack over the three failed engine builds that had my car off the road for nearly FIVE months last year, with a huge number of delays that it was embarrassing keeping chasing you, and then chasing the refund took one month from 18/10/03.

Now I am £x000 out of pocket for another gearbox, and my car has nearly been off the road because of this for three weeks - as long as it ran for daily use after I got it back, hopefully the six speed will be fitted very soon once we get the transmission jack.

Aside from statements of fact above, I do actually feel conned by all of this. I have not had any major product (ie more than a few hundred pounds off the shelf items) that I can recall from Lateral Performance that has not either failed (broken) or lived up to its performance claims.

T-uk

John called me on Mon' the 22nd at about 9pm telling me he thought a tooth may have broken, but hadn't checked it at this time.

<for the record>

I had heard the noise in forth myself,before draining the gear oil.

I was there holding the broken tooth during the call on the 22nd, it was very clear from john's description that there was no guess work.I heard john reject a replacement, so you had obviously accepted the description of the failure at that early stage.

I have also seen the emails and understand why john feels so let down by your response to a refund.

I also think it correct, that given the scoobynet community is basically your "shopping window", members should be aware of the possible issues of failed products and back-up.

john banks

Meanwhile, back onto the topic of the original thread, the allegedly false advertising in Scoobyshop has not been corrected regarding it being tested to in excess of the guaranteed limits in the UK.

If it is not changed or evidence provided to support the claim my next complaint will be to the Advertising Standards Authority.

We are also waiting for proof of the 1400kg clamping force on the clutch.

We have already proven the 1.8 bar to the red line claim on the MD304 as false (where are the people running this and making extra power as a result by running all this boost at 7000 RPM?), although that was not used in advertising.

If retailers are realistic about their claims and back them up with evidence where requested, and don't sell things with far higher claims than the competition then all this sort of trouble would not occur. More importantly if they test them themselves such as BR Developments do before releasing them to customers as test dummies then the aftermarket parts supply industry in the UK would be a lot more mature and we could get on with making cars that live up to their claims rather than half of them being paper racers.

It is impressive how much testing Bob does for things he is going to release - look at all the work he is doing on the twin scroll STi rather than rushing things to the market with a bolder claim than everyone else. Same with Prodrive and other quality outfits. Prodrive's products are so well judged on the reserve capacity and reliability front.

DocJock

JB, sorry to hear about your troubles.

My own car has been off the road since October after a not inexpensive "upgraded" part failed after 1300 miles. I understand your frustration, I really do......but I am feel there is a need for some moderating consistency here.
Sorry for the hijack.

Webmaster

To quote you from the looooong Bedford thread..... http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...278348&Page=15

Guys

Can you please change your "from" texts. I'm sure I don't have to explain how they need to be changed, or who needs to change them. This is a polite request to mature individuals.

All the best

Simon


Will you now be making the same request to certain posters on this thread, or do you think MarkA is less likely to threaten legal action than Dr Palmer ?

john banks

From text changed.

john banks

"next few days" is now 72 hours and still no outcome

StanS

iTrader: (3)

T-UK I was very pleased with the kit (apart from the problem, after about 15k miles, with third - but was also apparent to a much lesser extent on the other gears) and I put it down to a some manufacturing problem, as did the gearbox builder. The odd fault happens to everyone sooner or later and if the supplier does everything within their means (which is what happened to me) or even reasonably, to put things right, then I am satisfied. If you are in a service industry things do sometimes go wrong - no one (or ones suppliers) is perfect. I can only refer to MY experiences with Lateral/Mark, which have been excellent. I am sorry if anyone has had what they consider to be less than reasonable service. I cannot speak for them.

If, however, my replacement gears develop a problem, then, depending on the fault, I MAY lose confidence in the manufacturer.
I am not going to worry about what may happen in the future, I am very pleased with how Mark sorted my problem out in the past.
Stan