Trout

iTrader: (1)

OK - hands up - it could be that I owe Jack a pound...


...although the full extent of this problem is not yet clear.


Network is a Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem router running 802.11b/g. Two Linksys Wireless Range Extenders (essentially a dumb rebroadcast device) in a large, old house ith walls up to 2ft thick (hence range extenders).

Until recently only two wireless devices in the house - a wireless enabled Win XP desktop and my Macbook Pro.

Over the past year additional devices include a PS3 (only on when in use); au pair's laptop (); and very recently two iPhones.

Symptoms:

* upgrading to Snow Leopard led to dreadful problems obtaining a stable IP connection utilising DHCP on the router - regularly getting no IP address, dropping it after anywhere from 10s to 30m, or getting APIPA.

* Manual IP addressing on the Mac shows as connected but does not allow internet traffic.

* Problems are MUCH worse when connecting via one of the range extenders (this has worked perfectly for two years).

* other devices now starting to suffer the same maladies - e.g. PS3 and desktop although nowhere near as bad as the Macbook.

* problem worse at night than in the morning!!!! However this may be that in the evening the wireless range extender for the entertainment room is having to support three to five connected devices; whereas in the morning it is probably one or possibly two devices.

* Mac book suffers most as it insists on trying to connect via the same IP address and is intolerant of being given a new IP address. iPhones most resilient and will connect with a manual IP address.

All devices have the latest drivers.

There are some references to unspecified DHCP issues on the latest and prior Netgear firmware.

Overall unbelievably frustrating.

I have a couple of BT routers that I am going to try as a temporary fix to see if they resolve the DHCP issues (although my experience with BT routers is not good!).

Longer term I need a better solution. N is out for the moment although it seems to offer better penetration as the Mac cannot be N enabled (even though it has Airport Extreme installed it will not let me upgrade it to 802.11n).

The best solution - but also the one I really don't want to do is to hard network the house. attractive but very expensive. I could do it through the loft space with several wireless access points; but the thought of having to climb into the loft to reset WAPs or the router fills me with dread if it is every other day (like it is now).

Alternative would be to create a couple of WAPs at each end of the house using the 'mains plug' network adapter.

Or finally, find a way to make my current set up work.

Thanks for reading my long whinge - any suggestions or alternatives I have not thought of would be welcome before I destroy all my electronic devices with an axe and become a Luddite.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Just found this...

Firmware nightmare

So the first step will be to swap the router out when I have less tiny kids to look after!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I give up - since threatening all my devices with an axe the network has been working absolutely perfectly!!!

Cylon2007

Have you checked to see if there are any new wireless networks in your area that may be interferring?

Markus

David,
The axe trick always works, as does a swift kick, but bootprints on servers tend to get noticed

He's in the middle of nowhere, or at least he is from a viewpoint of other wireless networks.

Having said that. David, do you have any other wireless devices, for example, wireless phones, TV repeaters or anything else that might use a wireless connection. I'm thinking of interference from other wireless devices, but I seriously doubt it's that. The one change you made was from Leopard to Snow Leopard, and unless they have made the software somehow more fragile to interference, I cannot see this being the problem.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

We do have a DECT phone, house is too solid for a TV repeater.

I think Jack is right - SL works but is less tolerant of any network issues. Have found some later firmware for the router and it is now uploaded. Will see how it works with two computers, two iphones, a PS3, a DS and a PSP all connected

Trout

iTrader: (1)

So just had the first network issue of the day...

...just as it got dark!

The only device attached to the network is my Macbook Pro. I put it to sleep and when it woke up again having given the kids a bath it said that another device was using this device's IP address.

It then assigned itself an IP address (what IS the point of that?).

So it looks like when the Mac went to sleep the router thought it was still connected and when it work up it wanted to reconnect it as a duplicate. Had to restart the router to clear.

Any thoughts?

dunx

iTrader: (3)

My only crumb of comfort is that when I had problems, (coverage over three floors), it took the whole lot to be powered down and restarted to get a stable system, even after a minor change of set-up.

Or an axe is good !

dunx

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Twelve hours and every device has worked perfectly!! Wahay!

Markus

You weren't connected to any servers via AFP were you? I ask as AFP does have a "reconnect" feature. The idea being, you connect to a server and it opens a session. If you sleep the machine then the session on the server is put to sleep, and when the machine wakes up the session is also awoken. the idea behind this being you don't need to reconnect to the server.

It is quite possible other network services, SMB/CIFS being the other main one, might do this as well.

I doubt it is that though, it sounds as though something simply isn't releasing the address for some reason. When you powered the machine back up, did it happen to tell you what machine (probably gave a MAC/NIC address) was using the IP, if so, one presumes it was the macbook's MAC/NIC address.

Question here is wether it's the macbook working incorrectly or the device supplying the address.

As for why it then assigned itself an address, that does make some sense, it's telling you the address is in use and as it's dhcp, it'll then request a new address. The message is really just there as a warning, would be nice if it did state "I'm now going to grab another address" in the message, or words to that effect, just so you know what it is about to do.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I do have a question for you Markus. How do I find out the Macbook MAC address?

I have looked in the various places where I 'thought' I should be able to find it.

When I look on the Macbook I can find an address. However when I look on the router at the attached devices it shows a completely different MAC address; the MAC address that the router shows for the device is the same MAC address the Macbook says is the router when I look up the Airport connection on System Profiler. I am mightily confused.

And having had nearly 24 hours of impeccable service - the Macbook has just repeatedly dropped the IP address (after about 10s of lease renewal).

I closed Thunderbird and Mozilla as the only two apps utilising the net and renewed the lease which then was stable.

It is all driving me crazy as a crazy thing.

Markus

David,
The first step is to go here:

Applications -> System Preferences -> Network

You'll see a list of network connections on the left (Built-In Ethernet, Airport, etc...)

For built-in, select it from the click then click Advanced then click the Ethernet tab and "Ethernet ID" is your MAC/NIC address.

What you'd also want to do is the exact same thing for any other active network connections, those with the green dot next to the name. You should then be able to tie up the address the router is seeing.

At the very minimum you'll have two MAC addresses on the machine, one for built-in ethernet, the other for the Airport wireless card. As you have parallels you might also have others in the list too, as Parallels does add items there, so I'd double-check the list to see what address they have and compare it to what the router thinks.

It's very odd the router is displaying it's own MAC address in it's listing, and I could see how that would confuse things no end. Any chance of a screenshot of the system profiler window where it's showing this info. Actually, having looked myself, if you go into System Profiler and look at the Network section and then the "Locations" sub-section, it will list all the info about the network interfaces there, along with the MAC address for built in and airport

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I just checked again and the router was displaying the correct MAC address. I wish I had screen shots from yesterday as it was definitely different. I have restarted the router since then.

The connection thing is much better since I upgraded the firmware on the router...

...however there are now two Macbooks in the house. Mine and a SL new build.

Both of them have the same issue with dropping the connection, although with the router upgraded, Renewing the Lease gets the Macbook connected, usually the first time of asking.

So better but not completely resolved. There is clearly something in the way SL works that does not like my network configuration.

hodgy0_2

why can't you troubleshoot the problem by giving devices fixed IP addresses

conceptually the wireless connection and an IP address are two entirely different things and work on completely different layers of the OSI network model

i.e. the MAC address is layer 2 and the IP address is Layer 3

it maybe you have a problem with DHCP, but the allocation of DHCP will come after a layer 2 wireless connection is made

also is it possible you have MAC address filtering enabled

another point is whilst trouble shooting to turn of all connection security protocols such as WEP and WPA – it will cloud the issue

try and work out at what layer of the OSI model the errors are occurring

EddScott

NSR Mode

You have an au pair? sweeet!

/NSR Mode

Markus

Ah Au Pairs, lovely, I used to wear two on my hands as mittens

David,
Good to know it is a little more stable. I assume the other SL build is a brand new fresh install and not an upgrade, if so then that doesn't help with the thought that a clean install would help.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Hodgy - I did try reserving an IP address based on the MAC address and although it looks connected with the correct IP address there is no internet traffic. I think this is a Macbook issue as it is reported as flaky elsewhere.

Markus - the other Macbook has gone home now but is a factory built SL machine. The behaviour was identical on both machines. Connected with no IP address - renewing the lease fixed it.

Now that everything has been upgraded and restarted it has been MUCH better. Clearly SL is less tolerant of the Netgear firmware issues, which the firmware upgrade has improved.

Now limited to the very odd drop-out (none today) which a lease renew resolves. No restart of Mac or router required.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Edd

hodgy0_2

but reserving an IP address against its MAC address still uses the DHCP protocol for IP assignment (so if you have a DHCP issue, this strategy will not show it)

thinking about it – it is often difficult to manually assign an IP address to a wireless connection, without the connection being made first

but in any case, my point is that the wireless connection – at the layer 2 (or data link) layer is independent of any layer 3 IP issues

but looks like the firmware update might have done the trick

also as a rule of thumb --- whenever I am asked why a problem has occurred to a network/system that used to work, I always reply in the first instance, "it will usually be connected with the last thing you have done to your network"

they always deny they have done anything, naturally, but when the reason for the problem is eventually discovered they always say – “Oh that, yes I did that”