IT job market...............grrrrr
03 March 2003, 03:50 PM
#1
Hi All,
1 month down the line of being made redundant and Im still looking for work. Once again a recruiter confirmed my suspicians this afternoon telling me that basically she would only submit people who have 100% of the skills required and are in the right location too.
She told me previously she could submit someone with say 5 of the 8 skills required(about 2 years ago this is), but now it was much tougher and companies are just picking and chosing whom they want - its a total clients market.
Recruitment firms must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Its seriously begining to p1ss me off and get me down, next up Ill have the dole office asking me why I havent found a job.......
Im seriously considering a career change, a total bye bye to IT and make it a hobby!
Anyone else finding this, I know there are a number of people in my situation.
Andy
1 month down the line of being made redundant and Im still looking for work. Once again a recruiter confirmed my suspicians this afternoon telling me that basically she would only submit people who have 100% of the skills required and are in the right location too.
She told me previously she could submit someone with say 5 of the 8 skills required(about 2 years ago this is), but now it was much tougher and companies are just picking and chosing whom they want - its a total clients market.
Recruitment firms must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Its seriously begining to p1ss me off and get me down, next up Ill have the dole office asking me why I havent found a job.......
Im seriously considering a career change, a total bye bye to IT and make it a hobby!
Anyone else finding this, I know there are a number of people in my situation.
Andy
03 March 2003, 04:11 PM
#3
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ADP I am still looking and have found the situation exactly the same as you have, hence my post about doing courier work. Thinking of doing this as spring/summer is rapidly approaching and this will be something I can do while I wait for the right job in IT to come along, if it ever does!
Still thinking about other stuff as a career change but riding a motorbike is something I can do now so might as well try and earn some money doing something I am already able to do and enjoy.
Still thinking about other stuff as a career change but riding a motorbike is something I can do now so might as well try and earn some money doing something I am already able to do and enjoy.
03 March 2003, 04:18 PM
#4
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Come up North 
Try this
http://www.gojobsite.co.uk/
they email jobs to you etc.
Good luck hope it helps
Si
Try this
http://www.gojobsite.co.uk/
they email jobs to you etc.
Good luck hope it helps
Si
03 March 2003, 04:31 PM
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ADP,
Yep things are bad, I was contracting for eight years and then worked direct for two years but the last six months I was struggling so Im back in permie dom for the first time in 10 years, luckily one of my good clients needed a technical director and here I am, good luck, with IR35, fast track visas and cheap offshore IT the government have well and truly butt f**ked the IT industry.
Gary
Yep things are bad, I was contracting for eight years and then worked direct for two years but the last six months I was struggling so Im back in permie dom for the first time in 10 years, luckily one of my good clients needed a technical director and here I am, good luck, with IR35, fast track visas and cheap offshore IT the government have well and truly butt f**ked the IT industry.
Gary
03 March 2003, 05:05 PM
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03 March 2003, 05:25 PM
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FFS another call about a job that I probably won't be put forward for now as I don't have any Cisco routers knowledge.
What the **** are employers playing at, since when has doing desktop support involved doing router management, exchanger server maintenance and SQL database support? These are now the things that are stopping me from getting jobs. In the 4 years I have been doing desktop support never ever did the desktop support guys get involved with routers, email servers or sql and database support on the server side. To me these are 3rd line areas which have always had there own specific teams for support.
If you could do all these things you used to be worth about 40-50k a year in 3rd line. Now you are expected to be able to do it as 2nd line and are paying as low as 25k with all the skills under the sun required! Plus they are not prepared to give you any training, you must have every skill and be able to hit the floor running as soon as you walk in the door on your first day. Its a joke!
Certain employers are going to get hit big time treating the job market like this because when things pick up people are going to jump ship to the companies who are paying the proper money for the skills involved. Luckily there are some still out there who have realised this approach isnt beneficial in the long run. Only problem is every single redundant IT bod in London is applying for these positions with the good companies.
Every day that goes by I am becoming more and more reluctant to go back into IT.
What the **** are employers playing at, since when has doing desktop support involved doing router management, exchanger server maintenance and SQL database support? These are now the things that are stopping me from getting jobs. In the 4 years I have been doing desktop support never ever did the desktop support guys get involved with routers, email servers or sql and database support on the server side. To me these are 3rd line areas which have always had there own specific teams for support.
If you could do all these things you used to be worth about 40-50k a year in 3rd line. Now you are expected to be able to do it as 2nd line and are paying as low as 25k with all the skills under the sun required! Plus they are not prepared to give you any training, you must have every skill and be able to hit the floor running as soon as you walk in the door on your first day. Its a joke!
Certain employers are going to get hit big time treating the job market like this because when things pick up people are going to jump ship to the companies who are paying the proper money for the skills involved. Luckily there are some still out there who have realised this approach isnt beneficial in the long run. Only problem is every single redundant IT bod in London is applying for these positions with the good companies.
Every day that goes by I am becoming more and more reluctant to go back into IT.
03 March 2003, 05:37 PM
#11
B2Z
You must realise that now the support person must be GOD at everything and anything - yeh right, well thats what it seems like.
Jobs specs seem to be something like:
Desktop Support £15k - Ideally MCSE qualified, CCNA also. Citrix 5 years essential, Office, Unix(SCO,Irix,Solaris, HP all essential), TCP/IP, checkpoint firewall, full hardware knowledge, SQL server, Exchange 5.5 and 2000, expert scripting etc etc.
--------------------------
Its moon on a stick, but the problem is because the market is saturated with candidates they can afford to want the best people for bugger all money.
I reckon its tickets in a barrel, make sure youve got lots in there and youve got more chance of being pulled out.
andy
You must realise that now the support person must be GOD at everything and anything - yeh right, well thats what it seems like.
Jobs specs seem to be something like:
Desktop Support £15k - Ideally MCSE qualified, CCNA also. Citrix 5 years essential, Office, Unix(SCO,Irix,Solaris, HP all essential), TCP/IP, checkpoint firewall, full hardware knowledge, SQL server, Exchange 5.5 and 2000, expert scripting etc etc.
--------------------------
Its moon on a stick, but the problem is because the market is saturated with candidates they can afford to want the best people for bugger all money.
I reckon its tickets in a barrel, make sure youve got lots in there and youve got more chance of being pulled out.
andy
03 March 2003, 05:45 PM
#12
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LOL Andy thats exactly the type of stuff I am being sent and its a lot less than 50% of what I was on.
For 15k I can go and drive a white van delivering stuff, drive like a **** and apparently get away with it
and have an easy life.
My first IT job answering the bloody phone on the helpdesk was 19k FFS, let alone 15k and be expected to be IT guru of the year
For 15k I can go and drive a white van delivering stuff, drive like a **** and apparently get away with it
and have an easy life.My first IT job answering the bloody phone on the helpdesk was 19k FFS, let alone 15k and be expected to be IT guru of the year
03 March 2003, 05:52 PM
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Without wishing to sound smug, I've been waiting for this to happen for a long time now.
As everyone now realises, there is IT oversupply, brought about by years of ****-takingly expensive consultants who charge the earth in return for delivering poor-quality results.
Those who thought that IT was a licence to print money are now realising that there is no such thing. I feel sorry for people on an individual level, but at the same time am amazed that so few people seemed to see it coming.
Regardless of what those in the IT world believe, it's not this governmment or IR35 which have killed the golden goose, simply the fact that you can't buck the market; supply and demand will always level out.
Good luck to those looking. I genuinely hope that you sort yourselves out financially and professionally, but believe that many of you will have to accept a permanent salary reduction, at least until the next boom.
bros
As everyone now realises, there is IT oversupply, brought about by years of ****-takingly expensive consultants who charge the earth in return for delivering poor-quality results.
Those who thought that IT was a licence to print money are now realising that there is no such thing. I feel sorry for people on an individual level, but at the same time am amazed that so few people seemed to see it coming.
Regardless of what those in the IT world believe, it's not this governmment or IR35 which have killed the golden goose, simply the fact that you can't buck the market; supply and demand will always level out.
Good luck to those looking. I genuinely hope that you sort yourselves out financially and professionally, but believe that many of you will have to accept a permanent salary reduction, at least until the next boom.
bros
03 March 2003, 06:02 PM
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Bros2 I knew it would get bad at some stage with the large no's of people deciding to go into IT but I never knew the market would be flooded so early.
I have never done contracting so haven't been affected by IR35 and unfortunately I have never earnt the ludicrous sums of money that contracters were earning.
I certainly don't blame IR35 as I have never experienced it, but in a way it hasn't helped I suppose as many contractors have decided to go down the permanent route to employment therefore increasing the supply of applicants for permanent positions, whereas before many would't have even considered going permament.
I have never done contracting so haven't been affected by IR35 and unfortunately I have never earnt the ludicrous sums of money that contracters were earning.
I certainly don't blame IR35 as I have never experienced it, but in a way it hasn't helped I suppose as many contractors have decided to go down the permanent route to employment therefore increasing the supply of applicants for permanent positions, whereas before many would't have even considered going permament.
03 March 2003, 06:11 PM
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B2Z
It's a sod for those in perm jobs who are suddenly seeing themselves under threat because the contractors are now looking for a bit of security, but it's the way life is.
The boom will be back at some point, but if it's in the next two years I'll be amazed. Businesses have a long way to go before they recover their profitability, and so many Finance Directors have been burned through the folie de grandeur they've seen installed that they'll need a lot of convincing before they start contemplating big capital spend on yet another new system.
I know, I was that man with JD Edwards - I spend a year of pain getting the system installed, and it's never workd properly. Has it saved us any money (as originally specced? Nope. Have we managed to reduce headcount through increased efficiency? Again, no. Do we even have better reporting? Well, marginally, but for £2m you'd expect something substantially better.
bros
It's a sod for those in perm jobs who are suddenly seeing themselves under threat because the contractors are now looking for a bit of security, but it's the way life is.
The boom will be back at some point, but if it's in the next two years I'll be amazed. Businesses have a long way to go before they recover their profitability, and so many Finance Directors have been burned through the folie de grandeur they've seen installed that they'll need a lot of convincing before they start contemplating big capital spend on yet another new system.
I know, I was that man with JD Edwards - I spend a year of pain getting the system installed, and it's never workd properly. Has it saved us any money (as originally specced? Nope. Have we managed to reduce headcount through increased efficiency? Again, no. Do we even have better reporting? Well, marginally, but for £2m you'd expect something substantially better.
bros
03 March 2003, 06:45 PM
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I feel sorry for all involved as I've been though the job security hell myself.
Its just supply and demand, nothing else. Thats why a plumber can earn 4 times as much as IT bod.
Our IT guy looks after our 200 PC, 5 server network which has a mixture of NT, 2000, 98, 3.1, unix, Novell, JD Edwards, Minos, SAP and SCADA/CXlogix. Our system is also linked to HQ and other sites. He earns around £25k for a 48 hour week.
Our Electricians and Fitters earn more.
He does however say he would not go anywhere else as he's almost his own boss because no one else has a clue what he does.
Lee
Its just supply and demand, nothing else. Thats why a plumber can earn 4 times as much as IT bod.
Our IT guy looks after our 200 PC, 5 server network which has a mixture of NT, 2000, 98, 3.1, unix, Novell, JD Edwards, Minos, SAP and SCADA/CXlogix. Our system is also linked to HQ and other sites. He earns around £25k for a 48 hour week.
Our Electricians and Fitters earn more.
He does however say he would not go anywhere else as he's almost his own boss because no one else has a clue what he does.
Lee
03 March 2003, 07:04 PM
#17
Well Ive never contracted, nor have I ever earned **** takingly large sums of money, especially when I ve seen some ****** in marketing lardee daring around the office doing **** all for 50k a year, just because they have querky chris evans glasses and prefer white whine spritzers to a pint of lager.........
However when I moved jobs last I entered a compay who were paying ex contractors sums like 50-90k just to be a good developer.
I have to say I was staggered that these people were earning this kind of money and wondered how they could possibly justify it, but to them it was the "norm". I was not earning anything like that sum.
It may not surprise you then that this company is all but folded, and quite frankly I hope the directors fall flat on their *****! - there are lots of people out there who need to get with the times.
However as someone who has good A-Levels, a degree from one of the best Universities in the country , 3 years commercial experience and numerous recognised IT qualificiations I am frustrated at struggling to find a job that even pays as much as £25,000.
So should I be looking to take a pay cut? I think not.
However when I moved jobs last I entered a compay who were paying ex contractors sums like 50-90k just to be a good developer.
I have to say I was staggered that these people were earning this kind of money and wondered how they could possibly justify it, but to them it was the "norm". I was not earning anything like that sum.
It may not surprise you then that this company is all but folded, and quite frankly I hope the directors fall flat on their *****! - there are lots of people out there who need to get with the times.
However as someone who has good A-Levels, a degree from one of the best Universities in the country , 3 years commercial experience and numerous recognised IT qualificiations I am frustrated at struggling to find a job that even pays as much as £25,000.
So should I be looking to take a pay cut? I think not.
03 March 2003, 07:28 PM
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Ha! Try a career in science for taking the ****. I have a degree in Molecular Biology (1st class hons), a PhD in Molecular Immunology, experience in 8 different labs, am a published first author in several well respected journals - starting salary?
£18,265!
No, I'm not joking, it really is! And three years down the line, only one in twenty people who want to stay in science actually manage to get jobs. Upshot, all that training is for nothing and all that debt is yours for life! Hooray for supply and demand!
£18,265!
No, I'm not joking, it really is! And three years down the line, only one in twenty people who want to stay in science actually manage to get jobs. Upshot, all that training is for nothing and all that debt is yours for life! Hooray for supply and demand!
03 March 2003, 07:46 PM
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Any of you do Access databases, Visual Basic stuff? It's not a full time job but I need someone to sort out some of this stuff for me. Mail me for details if interested. My office is in Stevenage.
03 March 2003, 07:58 PM
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Cletterridge that is one hell of a **** deal! Thats a hell of a lot of knowledge to have with ludicrously little pay for somthing that actually matters to people, as opposed to IT which is just playing with pc's att he end of the day 
Neill, good call m8, have just taxed the bike so ready for a good blast, however it does need cleaning big time as currently its an embarrassment to the motorbiking fraternity (it is the filthiest its ever been)
Pcharlie unfortunately I have never touched databases or VB as they have not been areas that have interested me. Now regretting it as the things I haven't got involved with are the things that are stopping me from getting a job, such as SQL.
Neill, good call m8, have just taxed the bike so ready for a good blast, however it does need cleaning big time as currently its an embarrassment to the motorbiking fraternity (it is the filthiest its ever been)
Pcharlie unfortunately I have never touched databases or VB as they have not been areas that have interested me. Now regretting it as the things I haven't got involved with are the things that are stopping me from getting a job, such as SQL.
03 March 2003, 08:25 PM
#25
****** in marketing lardee daring around the office doing **** all for 50k a year
ADP, bang on, spent some time at a well known Brewer of Irish Stout, their entire marketing department was staffed by clueless graduate Marketing students with w4nky glasses and an ability to say yah,yah al lot and spout buzzwords all day.
Also HR people p1ss me off, money for old rope, inventing all sorts of ways to make recruiting somebody very complex. How come its "Human Resources" nowadays, it used to be just plain old staff/personnel
Makes me laugh about IT contractors, they had a taste of the good life for a few years and all got really nice cars and developed expensive tastes, now they are going back to what they are worth. I must add that I am an Oracle DBA so can comment and am not a jealous typist.
ADP, bang on, spent some time at a well known Brewer of Irish Stout, their entire marketing department was staffed by clueless graduate Marketing students with w4nky glasses and an ability to say yah,yah al lot and spout buzzwords all day.
Also HR people p1ss me off, money for old rope, inventing all sorts of ways to make recruiting somebody very complex. How come its "Human Resources" nowadays, it used to be just plain old staff/personnel
Makes me laugh about IT contractors, they had a taste of the good life for a few years and all got really nice cars and developed expensive tastes, now they are going back to what they are worth. I must add that I am an Oracle DBA so can comment and am not a jealous typist.
03 March 2003, 08:38 PM
#26
Just one more thing, I have to say thank god Im not doing an IT degree at the moment or have just graduated - that would be the biggest kick in the pants.........talk about hopelessness.
The other problem as Christian points out is that every man and his dog thinks he can "do IT". My message to those have ago heroes is **** off back to your supermarket job, this is profession and you cant just blag it from the side of the coco pops packet. Maybe 5 years ago that was ok when demand was high, but when demand is low like now then just forget it. Leave the jobs to the pros
like me
04 March 2003, 08:59 AM
#28
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Well, I thought id add my two peneth worth.
At 19, whilst still at uni, I was employed by Unilever. I was part qualified in several different areas. I was on > 27k/y before ot for a basic second line tech support. 27K at 19!!!!. I had so much cash I didnt know what to spend it on, but I did . However, years later, qualified with degree etc, im stuck in a dead end (but ok) sys admin job for a manufacturing firm. Pay now ? £23k. It sucks big time.
I do indeed blame all the fecking "oh lots of money in IT, lets do it". THEY are the people who have done it, especially the mcse "i can read a book but know **** all about real IT, because my trainer says it hard".
At 19, whilst still at uni, I was employed by Unilever. I was part qualified in several different areas. I was on > 27k/y before ot for a basic second line tech support. 27K at 19!!!!. I had so much cash I didnt know what to spend it on, but I did
. However, years later, qualified with degree etc, im stuck in a dead end (but ok) sys admin job for a manufacturing firm. Pay now ? £23k. It sucks big time.I do indeed blame all the fecking "oh lots of money in IT, lets do it". THEY are the people who have done it, especially the mcse "i can read a book but know **** all about real IT, because my trainer says it hard".
04 March 2003, 09:22 AM
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Makes me laugh about IT contractors, they had a taste of the good life for a few years and all got really nice cars and developed expensive tastes, now they are going back to what they are worth. I must add that I am an Oracle DBA so can comment and am not a jealous typist.
Gary
04 March 2003, 10:00 AM
#30
Well if you were along for the ride, and took the cash and have made a mint then bl00dy well done! I tell you, if you can get the money, take the money...........just watch your back and think about the future