CONFUSED... AND/OR PEE'D OFF !!!
08 July 2009, 09:42 PM
#1
CONFUSED... AND/OR PEE'D OFF !!!
Had my WRX mapped at ZEN's about a month ago (after recently running in their rebuilt engine).
Car made 282/273 on std TD05, 380cc inj and STi v.2 TMIC. It was A'PEXi PFC-mapped on Esso 97 (but I use V-Power to add some headroom against det... should it ever occur).
Was hooning tonight (and the CEL quickly, repeatedly flashed when over about 5k rpm. Now the "Inj. Duty Warning" and "Airflow Warning" are both turned off on the Commander, leaving just the "Knock Warning" on.
Therefore, this CEL would seem to be indicative of knock then... EXCEPT the Commander logged a max knock level of 'only' "19"! I believe the early EJ20G only really starts detting 'properly' at roughly around the "30" mark (but I know each individual motor is different, etc.) Also, Paul added that my particular engine was pretty resistant against det, when he mapped it.
So the flashing CEL and the max knock reading would seem to be at odds with each other.
Is the flashing CEL anything to be concerned about then?... 
Car made 282/273 on std TD05, 380cc inj and STi v.2 TMIC. It was A'PEXi PFC-mapped on Esso 97 (but I use V-Power to add some headroom against det... should it ever occur).
Was hooning tonight (and the CEL quickly, repeatedly flashed when over about 5k rpm. Now the "Inj. Duty Warning" and "Airflow Warning" are both turned off on the Commander, leaving just the "Knock Warning" on.
Therefore, this CEL would seem to be indicative of knock then... EXCEPT the Commander logged a max knock level of 'only' "19"! I believe the early EJ20G only really starts detting 'properly' at roughly around the "30" mark (but I know each individual motor is different, etc.) Also, Paul added that my particular engine was pretty resistant against det, when he mapped it.
So the flashing CEL and the max knock reading would seem to be at odds with each other.
Is the flashing CEL anything to be concerned about then?...
Last edited by joz8968; 08 July 2009 at 09:45 PM.
08 July 2009, 10:14 PM
#2
It could be that the Det level threshold that flashes the Cel on the Ecu ( is it an Apexi Ecu ?) has been set to low & the threshold just needs moving ..
Best to speak to Zen, Im sure they will be helpfull & put you right & your mind at rest.
Cheers.
Dean
Best to speak to Zen, Im sure they will be helpfull & put you right & your mind at rest.
Cheers.
Dean
08 July 2009, 10:45 PM
#3
Yes Dean, it's a Apexi Power FC... and that would be the most logical answer.
Paul modded the previous map (by JGM back in Aug 2007, on the same mods and on this engine... but before it was rebuilt). So perhaps, JGM's old "Knock level CEL warning" threshold setting hasn't been altered in this new map?
As you say, this is one for Zen to address, I think...
Thanks for your learned reply... m'lud.
Paul modded the previous map (by JGM back in Aug 2007, on the same mods and on this engine... but before it was rebuilt). So perhaps, JGM's old "Knock level CEL warning" threshold setting hasn't been altered in this new map?
As you say, this is one for Zen to address, I think...
Thanks for your learned reply... m'lud.
Last edited by joz8968; 08 July 2009 at 10:58 PM.
08 July 2009, 11:41 PM
#5
Can you only set the CEL's knock threshold setting on the laptop program that's used for mapping the PFC... Or is there a way of setting it from the Commander? (Can't say I've seen it though...)
Last edited by joz8968; 08 July 2009 at 11:52 PM.
09 July 2009, 12:17 AM
#6
don't think you can do it on commander mate,when buzzing around in mine it reads 27-29
sometimes in the low 30s but my light doesn't flash.it did flash just after i had it mapped
but i put that down to a shi* batch of fuel,its never happened since
sometimes in the low 30s but my light doesn't flash.it did flash just after i had it mapped
but i put that down to a shi* batch of fuel,its never happened since
09 July 2009, 12:51 AM
#7
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Forget what exactly they are called but there is the basic knock and the actual knock recording and the CEL light I believe is calculated from the RAW and then the calculation for the display etc.. because years ago I have seen on my own car CEL flash for knock but the recorded peak is less than trigger..
I would have set the trigger just above the knock level seen which was not actually det but just engine noise.. iirc it would have been about 45.. I can check as I will have your map on laptop.. but Paul would have assessed and altered anyway.
I suspect you just have a bad batch of fuel or it got hot intercooler in current weather..
if it is repeatable then go back to Paul.
Can I just clarify that I mapped it and said the head gaskets were on the way out watching the coolant temp.. the head gaskets then failed a few months later and Zen rebuilt the engine.. otherwise it sounds like reading the above that it blew up as a result of my mapping..
Simon
I would have set the trigger just above the knock level seen which was not actually det but just engine noise.. iirc it would have been about 45.. I can check as I will have your map on laptop.. but Paul would have assessed and altered anyway.
I suspect you just have a bad batch of fuel or it got hot intercooler in current weather..
if it is repeatable then go back to Paul.
Can I just clarify that I mapped it and said the head gaskets were on the way out watching the coolant temp.. the head gaskets then failed a few months later and Zen rebuilt the engine.. otherwise it sounds like reading the above that it blew up as a result of my mapping..
Simon
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09 July 2009, 09:57 AM
#9
Thanks everyone.
Simon, no it wasn't your fault mate - it was mine!
lol...
You possibly may remember that I had an SMR engine put in there
(because I thought the orig. motor's big end had gone). Apparently, when the HG failed on the SMR, when Paul inspected it, he reported that the heads were held on with twine and dowels!!! 
So it would have been this abortion that would have accounted for the HG failure. 
When Paul rebuilt it, he retained SMR's v.1/2 heads and crank (they were actually totally fine)... but kindly donated F.O.C. a new ODB
(SMR's one showed signs of rust and pitting, I believe). He also done a good deal on a set of STi 3/4 pistons and STi 9 rods. It also has ACL Race Series bigs and mains.
Simon, no it wasn't your fault mate - it was mine!
lol...You possibly may remember that I had an SMR engine put in there
(because I thought the orig. motor's big end had gone). Apparently, when the HG failed on the SMR, when Paul inspected it, he reported that the heads were held on with twine and dowels!!! So it would have been this abortion that would have accounted for the HG failure. When Paul rebuilt it, he retained SMR's v.1/2 heads and crank (they were actually totally fine)... but kindly donated F.O.C. a new ODB
(SMR's one showed signs of rust and pitting, I believe). He also done a good deal on a set of STi 3/4 pistons and STi 9 rods. It also has ACL Race Series bigs and mains.
Last edited by joz8968; 09 July 2009 at 10:04 AM.
01 August 2009, 09:08 PM
#10
Just a small bookend to this thread...
Put in some fresh V-Power the other day, and appears to be no flashing CEL this time. Presumaby the previous batch was stale(?), as suggested.
The only thing that I don't understand is, if that was the case, then how come the CEL flashed... but the knock level only read 19, and not into the 30-40+ area?
Put in some fresh V-Power the other day, and appears to be no flashing CEL this time.
Presumaby the previous batch was stale(?), as suggested.The only thing that I don't understand is, if that was the case, then how come the CEL flashed... but the knock level only read 19, and not into the 30-40+ area?
Last edited by joz8968; 01 August 2009 at 09:12 PM.
01 August 2009, 09:12 PM
#11
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jez Jon you not got your reading glasses on
I said a few posts up
I said a few posts up
Forget what exactly they are called but there is the basic knock and the actual knock recording and the CEL light I believe is calculated from the RAW and then the calculation for the display etc.. because years ago I have seen on my own car CEL flash for knock but the recorded peak is less than trigger..
01 August 2009, 09:18 PM
#12
Coat duly donned and scarpering out the door... 
I totally forgot about that part of your post (it's the age
). Cheers Simon - all good then.
P.S. Ironically, on Wed at work, I had an H&S eye test!
Last edited by joz8968; 02 August 2009 at 11:32 AM.
03 August 2009, 02:23 PM
#16
Simon...
That reading of "19" was actually a 'bad' reading (i.e. coinciding with the flashing CEL)... As now - with everything all working fine - my max knock level is only at "8"! 
That reading of "19" was actually a 'bad' reading (i.e. coinciding with the flashing CEL)... As now - with everything all working fine - my max knock level is only at "8"!
Last edited by joz8968; 03 August 2009 at 02:27 PM.
03 August 2009, 03:18 PM
#17
Your knock level will be lowered to be just above the highest knock values seen during mapping, that way if you do get any slight det, it will flash the CEL to make sure you know about it, which is much safer than doing what some (mainly non subaru) tuners do and put the knock threshold up so that it needs to be detting its brains out to flash the CEL.
So on the one occasion you've had something out of the ordinary happen, the PowerFC has let you know about it which is exactly what you want, and now you've put some more fuel in everything sorted itself out.
I would say that's a result, and rather than being pee'd off, you should be happy!
So on the one occasion you've had something out of the ordinary happen, the PowerFC has let you know about it which is exactly what you want, and now you've put some more fuel in everything sorted itself out.
I would say that's a result, and rather than being pee'd off, you should be happy!
03 August 2009, 03:52 PM
#19
Your knock level will be lowered to be just above the highest knock values seen during mapping, that way if you do get any slight det, it will flash the CEL to make sure you know about it, which is much safer than doing what some (mainly non subaru) tuners do and put the knock threshold up so that it needs to be detting its brains out to flash the CEL.
So on the one occasion you've had something out of the ordinary happen, the PowerFC has let you know about it which is exactly what you want, and now you've put some more fuel in everything sorted itself out.
I would say that's a result, and rather than being pee'd off, you should be happy!
So on the one occasion you've had something out of the ordinary happen, the PowerFC has let you know about it which is exactly what you want, and now you've put some more fuel in everything sorted itself out.
I would say that's a result, and rather than being pee'd off, you should be happy!
But I would've have expected the CEL to have been set to flash at just after an indicated knock level of around the 30-40 mark (rather than c.19) as, generically, the early EJ20G knocks 'properly' at this higher ballpark area - that's what I was initially confused about.
Unless, of course, Paul at Zen mapped it relatively aggressively re. the ign. timing(?)
Last edited by joz8968; 03 August 2009 at 04:03 PM.
04 August 2009, 12:29 AM
#27
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Well, now that I know it's all working - and that it all points to a bad batch of fuel - of course I'm now not pee'd off.
But I would've have expected the CEL to have been set to flash at just after an indicated knock level of around the 30-40 mark (rather than c.19) as, generically, the early EJ20G knocks 'properly' at this higher ballpark area - that's what I was initially confused about.
Unless, of course, Paul at Zen mapped it relatively aggressively re. the ign. timing(?)
But I would've have expected the CEL to have been set to flash at just after an indicated knock level of around the 30-40 mark (rather than c.19) as, generically, the early EJ20G knocks 'properly' at this higher ballpark area - that's what I was initially confused about.
Unless, of course, Paul at Zen mapped it relatively aggressively re. the ign. timing(?)
Agree with what Paul said 100%
Simon
04 August 2009, 05:46 PM
#29
Regardless, I was surprised to see CEL knock activity at a relatively 'low' 19, that's all. (I assumed it would happen from, say, late-20s onward, at worst).
But it is what it is. Obviously.
P.S. But as Paul said, it DID what it's supposed to do - and I'm well happy.
Last edited by joz8968; 04 August 2009 at 06:04 PM.
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