f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

So is alcazar lying and the police were telling the truth or were the police lying and alcazar is telling the truth. I know, let's spend tens of thousands of taxpayers' money trying to fnd out... ah no he's not a Tory cabinet minister is he?

Xx-IAN-xX

Possibly trying to route out bent coppers which can't be a bad thing. Let's hope that a couple of spaces are reserved at one of her majesty's hotels.Hopefully the next lot will be South Yorkshire police force for altering over 200 statements in the hillsborough investigation.

hodgy0_2

doesn't the Hillsborough fallout show that not only do individual Police officers lie, but more worryingly they collectively lie as a whole police force

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

First off, he TOLD my son he had to give a DNA sample. I was there...I queried it most strongly, and he then backed down and admitted he didn't have to at all.

The others...I'm certainly NOT going to go into them on here, they are my business. One of them, in particular, would put me in a very bad light, despite being untrue.

But rest assured, I have NO reason to lie. Sadly they all happened.

I now trust any police officer about as far as I could chuck him AND his patrol car. And that's a healthy way to be in 21st century Britain.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Like ANYONE will go down for that?

Hasn't the top man already been allowed to go and is free from prosecution?

Xx-IAN-xX

Apparently new rulings will mean he could face trial again

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Ah...then we shall see what we shall see.

Bonehead

ok fair enough, so in a nutshell then your experiences of cops are negative.
I accept you saying you don't like them due the reasons you've hinted at, again fair enough.
We make judgements on people by our personal experiences and yours have been bad.

My experience of cops is mixed but generally much much better.
Some are ok and some are *******, some I'd trust with my life savings and some I wouldn't trust with a biro, some are hard working grafters just trying to do their best against an endless stream of over political interference and nonsense and dwindling resources, whereas some hide behind their uniforms and treat people like s**t with their main interest being promotion no matter who gets s**t on or using their position to bully normal folk.
I've encountered all types but generally the better ones outweigh the bad, but as in any job you just need a couple of the bad types to form an negative opinion of them all.

This Plebgate thing still has some mileage to go
I've always thought the cops would've been telling the truth as they would have had the most to loose here.
If there was any hint they were lying and stitching Mitchell up they'd be out on their ear and facing criminal charges
If Mitchell was lying then all he would loose was his position, which after the dust had settled he'd be given another role

A year on an the cops are still in post and this investigation is now centred on the actions of the Fed officers.
Which to me shows that Mitchell did say what he said to the cops

After the incident Mitchell should've gone round to the cops nick with a tray load of doughnuts and a vat of coffee and apologised for being such a ****** and that would've been the end of it as far as the officers would've been concerned.
However this Gov are very anti Police, Cameron and May have done real damage to policing with their 'reforms' aka 'cuts' and their gang of politicians been made to look bad.
They'll run this story on and on until they make the cops look bad.

The Fed officers shouldn't have tried to make political capital out of this incident but after the drubbing the gov has given the Police in their 'reforms' then you can see why they did it, even though it was pretty stupid of them to play politics with politicians

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Agreed.

Maggie had it right, if you want the police (anybody) on your side, you increase their pay. She did just that before the miners' strikes.

The present lot have targeted various sectors, starting with the public sector, to blame for the economic mess. They have since had a go at immigrants, and now the poor/unemployed, but the public sector thing rumbles on, with teachers, some council workers, the police and the firemen getting particularly sh!tty deals thrown at them.

I don't like what's going on, but feel a bit like my French mate, who complained to me once that he'd had to go out and vote for Jacques Chirac, who he hated, because there was a real danger that the National front's Jean-Marie lePen would get in if insufficient people voted.

I'm a bit like that...I DON'T want Labour back for a while, but hate the way the Tories are blaming everyone but politicians and the bankers for the economic mess.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

This ^^^^^^ 100%!

coupe_20vt

iTrader: (2)

You need to get your facts correct mate. Mitchell has already apologised for swearing at the police in Downing Street.

If you actually followed whats happened rather than spout s***e, you'd know the swearing is a side issue. The issue is the lying policemen, those who were present and those who weren't even there! An ex policeman lied and said he was a witness. Those on duty said a 'crowd' of people at the gates were shocked what they'd heard when in fact CCTV showed no crowds.

The Police Federation have been a disgrace in all of this.

The 3 reps who met Mitchell in his constituency office and then lied about what was said are shameful specimens. Their chief constables are no better.

Any respect for the Police I had after the shameful Hillsborough cover up has now evaporated.

And what the f*** has police pay got to do with this

Bonehead

It's cause the Gov had right royally s**t on all of the Police
They've done away with discretion and will soon be making cops redundant under compulsory severance
Are you aware of how badly they've shafted the Police

They want to run modern policing into the ground and replace it with their buddies in Gfarce

The Police Fed on a national level are crap and a joke

Modern senior officers are more politicians than 'real' Police

What's Hillsborough got to do with this?
It was 20 odd years ago, that's like blaming Bloody Sunday as having something to do with the three Marines currently on trial

Xx-IAN-xX

Hillsborough shows that it is not a new problem

Maz

iTrader: (34)

The shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes didn't exactly show the Police in a good light either.

coupe_20vt

iTrader: (2)

Exactly.

mrmadcap

F_1, I'm fed up with reminding people that the Police made their beds when they helped Maggie put down the miners strike, and the miners were fighting for their livelihoods not just for a big fat pension.

No sympathy for the coppers.

Bonehead

What about the cop that was killed earlier this year off duty who went running towards a ****head firing his shotgun and what about Fiona and Nicola? murdered by that scumbag in Manchester last year?

What about them?

Chip

The miners, stupid as they were, were fighting Scargills personal battle against Thatcher which he rightly lost.

mrmadcap

Wrong people in the wrong job in the wrong place at the wrong time unfortunately.

Like the keystone cops that kicked the **** out of a blind man because they thought his white stick was a samurai sword.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

True...but the cops weren't blameless.

cster

She saved them from themselves IMO.
I can't imagine a more **** job than working in a coal mine.
As for the idea of whole communities doing this job through the generations - all the while presented by the lefties of the day as some kind of socialist utopia?
Tells you pretty much all you need to know about the Left I suppose.

hodgy0_2

But interesting how the whole narrative has changed

Whole communities fighting for the right to work, then

Whole communities fighting for the right to sit on their ***** all day, now

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Bonehead

I note your comment that the Gov't have shafted the Police. Just not sure how? Have you had your pension and terms and conditions changed yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11446830

I would love to have your pension...........

Shaun

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

How about sitting about all day with NO job, watching your young family get more and more bitter, before moving into petty crime?

And all the while, we can IMPORT coal dug out by 12 year olds?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yeah but according to most on here that's fine as long as Thatcher made her point. That's despite the fact that most of them are too young to properly remember the 70s/early 80s!

neil-h

How exactly? Granted it could have been handled better but given the circumstances at the time it was a very difficult situation. If he had been a suicide bomber it could have been a very different chain of events.

RA Dunk

Agree with both Alcazar and F1 on the above comments TBH.

Only the more brainwashed among you cannot see her for what she really was and what she has done to this country, we really are seeing the effects of it now.

I suppose the usual culprit will come and defend her now.

Xx-IAN-xX

There wasn't a profitable coal mining industry in the UK since the 1960's, which is when most of the South Wales pits were closed.They were shut down by Labour's minister for energy - TONY BENN!

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Bunch of lying, incompetent *******s.

MISSING FIREARMS OFFICERS

The first came the moment the Brazilian left his block of flats at Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, which by sheer bad luck was also home to one of the failed bombers, Hussain Osman. The plan, according to John McDowall, who was in charge of the operation and is now deputy assistant commissioner at the Metropolitan Police, was that firearms teams would be outside the flats and would stop and question everyone who left. But the order was never communicated to the armed officers. Instead surveillance officers, with no training in stopping and questioning suspects, staked out the flats alone.

2 PHOTOGRAPH MIX-UP

The surveillance team, SO12, had not been shown a quality picture of Osman, the man they were hunting. All they had seen was a faded passport photograph at briefing at Scotland Yard at 5am and not all of them had a copy at the scene. The jury decided that the failure of the police to provide better photographs to the officers contributed to Mr de Menezes's death.

3 ABSENT FROM POST

But it should not have been a problem. The SO12 officers had a video with them to record those coming in and out of the flats. That could have been cross referenced to the photographs of Osman and the obvious differences established. But the SO12 officer, codenamed Frank, failed to film the Brazilian as he walked past his surveillance van because he had put down his camera so he could urinate.

4 BOARDING THE BUS

A fourth opportunity to stop Mr de Menezes – without the need for lethal force – came after he had boarded the No 2 bus. At that point officers told the control room at Scotland Yard that Mr de Menezes was not the suspect they were looking for. The decision was made to stop the bus and search and question him. That plan was abandoned when the surveillance officers changed their minds and sent a message to the control room saying they thought that Mr de Menezes was the man they were looking for. Again, this was highlighted by the jury, who said that the police's decision not to stop Mr de Menezes before he got on any public transport led to his death.

5 'ANTI-SURVEILLANCE TRICK'

It was shortly after this that Mr de Menezes got off the bus at Brixton, before boarding again. It was this decision which meant the Brazilian, according to the family's lawyer Michael Mansfield QC, was "virtually dead".

6 ENTERING TUBE STATION

As he arrived at Stockwell station another opportunity to stop Mr de Menezes before he went underground was missed. The gold commander in the control room, Cressida Dick, said that Mr de Menezes was to be stopped from getting on the Tube "at all costs", yet surveillance officers said they were never asked to stop and search Mr de Menezes outside – something they say they would have been able to do if asked. The jury said that the police's failure to use surveillance officers to intervene also contributed to his death.

7 COMMUNICATION BREAKDOWN

At this point in the operation there was confusion about whether Mr de Menezes was positively identified to CO19 firearms officers by the surveillance team or not and debate over what information, in terms of identification, was given to the firearms officers before they shot Mr de Menezes. That problem was compounded by the "awful" reception on the police radios.

Firearms officer C12 admitted he could have missed important messages over the radio and told the inquest that the signal was weak, faint and fuzzy and would sometimes cut out altogether. The other officer who shot Mr de Menezes, codenamed C2, said he heard a surveillance officer over the radio say "this is definitely our man". He was backed up by his firearms team leader, codenamed Ralph, who also insisted he heard that phrase. But the surveillance officer who had been tailing the Brazilian, codenamed Ken, denied making such a statement. The jury also said that shortcomings in the police's communication system contributed to the Brazilian's death.

THE FINAL MOMENTS

It was this confusion that led Mr Mansfield to accuse the firearms officers of deciding to kill Mr de Menezes as soon as they entered the station.

Denying this, they gave a detailed account of what they say happened in the seconds before Mr de Menezes was killed. The pair ran into the station and vaulted the barriers before pulling out their Glock handguns and running down the escalator towards the train Mr de Menezes had boarded.

Making his way along the platform with his gun hidden behind his right leg, C12 was the first inside the carriage and was alerted to Mr de Menezes's presence by a surveillance officer, codenamed Ivor, who pointed at the seated Brazilian and shouted "He is here". As Mr de Menezes stood up, Ivor pinned him back in his chair as C12 and C2 shot him dead.

Both firearms officers were adamant that they shouted "armed police" and C12 said he only decided to shoot the Brazilian when he continued to walk towards him after the warning was shouted. But six witnesses who were sat in the same carriage as Mr de Menezes said they heard no warnings. One, Anna Dunwoodie, said she was "very, very clear" that there were no shouts of "armed police" from the officers before they opened fire. Ms Dunwoodie also said she had no recollection of Mr de Menezes standing up and walking towards the officers.

Despite the horrendous sequence of errors which ended in experienced police officers killing an innocent civilian, perhaps one of Scotland Yard's most startling admissions during the inquest was that a similar tragedy could happen again.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner McDowall told the court that it was "entirely feasible" such a scenario could repeat itself. Cressida Dick, who has since also been promoted to deputy assistant commissioner, said: I pray it doesn't happen, but it is possible that an innocent member of the public might die in circumstances like this."

The key players

The Coroner

*Sir Michael Wright

The coroner, a former High Court judge, was brought out of retirement, but his conduct has been controversial. On the first day, he told jurors: "This is a fresh approach. No one can tell you what to decide." But he enraged the De Menezes family when he told the jury they would not be allowed a verdict of unlawful killing because that would suggest the officers who shot the Brazilian "had committed a very serious offence, murder or manslaughter". He also told the jury not to consider the feelings of Mr de Menezes's mother, Maria Otone, saying: "I know your heart will go out to her. But these are emotional reactions, and you are charged with returning a verdict based on evidence. Put aside any emotion."

The Police Chief

Sir Ian Blair

The then Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police resigned from the force after the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, made it clear he did not want him to continue. One of the reasons for Mr Johnson's lack of faith in the police chief stemmed from the criticism he received over the De Menezes shooting.

The Terrorist

*Hussain Osman

The man police were hunting when they mistakenly shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes is now serving 40 years for the failed 21 July 2005 suicide bomb attempts. Osman was among four men who tried to detonate devices on underground trains.

He is currently serving a 40-year jail sentence.

The Commander

*Cressida Dick

The Gold Commander on the day of the operation, and therefore ultimately in charge, Ms Dick has since been promoted to Deputy Assistant Commissioner, a decision which the De Menezes family described as a "slap in the face" for them. During the inquest she said that she thinks about the tragedy every day but that she would not have done anything differently. Ms Dick also said that she could not guarantee that the same thing would not happen again.

Scrappy9

In my opinion if this enquiry results in the police having to wear video and voice recording equipment whilst on duty, I think it is a positive outcome. I don't believe the police can be totally trusted if it was my word against a police officers I don't think I would have much chance of being believed.
I find the behaviour of some police officers appalling and I am friends with a couple of them.