Subaru4u are top notch, I have had a fully forged engine build from them in the past and it was spot on, Len and the guys are top notch honest guys so you can rest assured they are not pulling a fast one, hope it all goes well and it is not too crippling

 

I see your point, but IMHO one of the main reasons it failed is that the 2.5 doesn't like to be pushed for power without the internals being upgraded.

If the OP had a 2.0 that blew apart on the rollers, I'd be more inclined to pull it apart, but seeing as its a 2.5, I think the extra cost of a tear down is a bit of a waste, seeing as its well documented on this forum and others that they're prone to "giving up the ghost" when tuned without being forged first.

 

We had something very similar happen, a corsa vxr was mapped and as the car was road tested by the customer, piston 4 gave up. We had a duty of care while the car was in our hands to repair that car by law. The customer then asked for all 4 pistons to be done so we rebuild the engine for the customer who only had to pay for the 3 pistons. That's it, labour was covered by the mapping company and parts cost was covered by the dealership.

 

It maybe a very long thread but there are not as many individual cars identified as failing as the page count would suggest.
6500rpm is still 500rpm below the factory red line and should not be a cause of failure providing it was run on correct fuel,map and the engine was in good nick. Your trying to make out the 2.5 is so weak it will pop if pushed near the red-line which is nonsense mate. While not immune from piston issues the WRX is regarded as less prone than the sti, the gb270 being a wrx.
There has been no mention of smoke or loud noises that i have read. All i have read is the engine cut out and wont start. If the engine shat itself it would of smoked out the dyno cell unless it was cambelt related then it may no of. At this time its just way too early to be adding it to the list just because its a 2.5. I'm sure plenty of other cars have gone pop on the dyno

 

Whilst I agree with what you're saying, and not all 2.5's will die, there's plenty of evidence that the 2.5's are more prone to failure than the 2.0 when pushed for power. Like for like tuning on the 2.0 vs 2.5 typically would show the 2.5 die first (although there's probably plenty of 2.0's that have died in the tuning process too), it seems that the 2.5 is just inherently weaker.

There is obviously a lot of other factors that would need to be considered, fuel, service history etc.

My question here is: Is it just that the WRX is less likely to die due to it having less power than the STi as standard?

 

I agree but a couple of points to remember in this particular case.
A. where not talking in that much power as the car is pretty standard and the mapper had only just started the session so i doubt he had it running to the max of his standard turbo, injectors ect.
B. the owner has only just bought the car recently so doesn't really know how its been treated, what fuel its been run on and the over all condition of the engine prior to the dyno / map session. I know he said its been serviced by specialists but a service only covers so much and is not proof of engine condition.

 

Fair comments bud. The OP did mention it wasn't making as much power on last Dyno run as it should've done, and has had at least a tank of 95 through it. although I wouldn't have expected something like this after a single tank.

As a 2.5 owner myself, I've already decided to leave the engine stock for the time being as the risk of it dying is too great for the gains I'd get.

I guess the approach for tuning the 2.5 should differ from the 2.0 to mitigate the risk? I know that if I do ever decide to go for bigger power, first thing I'd do to mine is to forge it.

All this being said; 2.5 or 2.0, tuning can end in tears very easily (nearly did with a 3.0 conversion I did on my Vectra years ago), and I think that the OP has dealt with this way better than I ever could. Big to him for that.

 

At 6500rpm wouldnt there have been a massive bang when it gave up the ghost? Assuming that then saying it "cut out" doesnt really cut it.Surely theres a duty of care here,they assessed the car as being fine to be mapped after all.It makes it worse as the original poster wasnt present to see exactly how this came to be.

 

Just remind us all what happened to your 2.5 engined car again.

Just so we can quantify and put your statement in to context as far as this thread and the reliability of the 2.5 is concerned.

 

firstly my car was not standard when i went pop and secondly believe it or not i was only cruising at about 2500 rpm when it let go. quite fortunate really as it caused no other damage. One thing i can tell you tho, when the ring land let go there was clouds of thick white smoke from my exhaust and the car still started and ran. The op like everyone who bought secondhand ,myself included really has no idea what fuel the cars been run on or how its been treated. These problems like cracks in the piston can be present long before it goes pop. A while ago there was a pole here about Subaru across the range and there failures. While i dont take any such pole as conclusive evidence it has to be noted than many 2L cars standard and modded had failed. I'm not in anyway defending subarus choice in using hyper bullsh*t pistons cos there crap,there just not as weak as your implying by saying, "well its a 2.5 revved to 6.5k". Thats nonesence if the car is looked after, run on the correct octame fuel and in the case of my car (rb320) not pushed above 10% of its standard power on standard piston and head bolts.

Sorry but this "well its a 2.5" is the generic scoobynet answer for everything, regardless of evidence, or lack of.

 

I wouldn't say it's the definitive answer, but it certainly does go a long way towards an explanation in some instances.

 

keep the faith brother.

Hi ho silver away.....

 

i do find it strange about what actually happened, afaik the 2.5 have weak ringlands which shouldnt be a particularly catastrophic failure, smoke a bit maybe and make a tappet noise.

but engines are moving quite fast inside , maybe part of a ring broke off and fell somewhere nasty. or could be something else completely like oil starvation, cracked /blocked pick up -pipe.

i wouldnt kick up a fuss because at the end of the day its your risk when having a car mapped (but tbh i would always be there to see it) . simon is one of the best mappers in the business so i doubt its a mapping issue but i would want to know what actually failed

 

Guys just to clarify a few points, the car was previously owned by a very respected Scooby forum owner previously that is meticulous when anything Subaru is considered. The car from what I have been told has never run on anything but Vpower whilst in his ownership.

On the last dyno test I did make a massive blunder and put supermarket Ron97 in not 95 which resulted in Simon doing a very conservative map due to the quality of the fuel.

As stated above the engine was just serviced by Sub4u and nothing was reported as suspect. Up until the dyno on Tuesday the car was running beautifully with very little oil usage and just did a 450 mile round trip to Norwich and was a pure joy.

On reflection I wish I was there during the mapping but unfortunately I live 45 miles away and was working at the time. Neither Simon nor Rick mentioned seeing any signs of smoke from the car and it appeared it just let go. Rick mentioned late yesterday afternoon that the motor was turning slighty but seemed to stop at a certain point.. Not sure what that means but the advise given was to rip and replace.

Nevertheless I am trying to evaluate the best way forward and 224 and myself are currently talking about the Fully forged 2.5 he has that API built for him. Just getting the motor inspected and hopefully we will have a deal. Seems this is my only concrete option right now.

 

The API engine sounds like a good option & paying to have the blown engine stripped may be a waste of money. However they are easy to strip down, so I would keep the old engine & strip it yourself so you can put this to bed once & for all. In no way do I think anyone is to blame, but I would really want to know why it happened.

 

+1

 

My car is Mapped by Simon and looked after by Len and I trust them both. They are both very genuine and decent people.

Sadly these things can and do happen. I've been there myself not too long ago and it's gutting. It's also the risk we all take when putting a car on a dyno or pushing for more power. My car, as Banny said, is there right now having some engine work done and I'll be honest, as a track car it gets some right abuse.

Depending on what you're aiming for, if you're going to rebuild something I would do it properly.

If 2.5 then send the block to Drewtts or Alyn @ ASPerformance on here and get the closed deck inserts put in it & 14mm stud conversion. A few cars running 600+ on these and so far they seem to be doing ok. Speak to Mark @ Lateral or Steve @ SMG and get some decent rods/pistons. You could get all that for less that 2.5k or thereabouts and you'd have a good strong base to go forward with.

Failing that... a well built 2.1 with good internals is also a proven route and I think the whole kit is about 2k inc VAT.

The main thing is it's happened and while the engine needs to come out you may as well do it properly. Don't rush into any rash decisions or go buying the first decent sounding engine that pops up.

Think about what you want, speak to Len & Simon....or someone else if you wish....and talk through the best option to get to where you want to be.

As I said at the start, Both Simon and Len are decent people. They are honest and wont pull your pants down, baffle you with BS, or rip you off. This is the main reason I chose them to do my car.

Good luck with getting it sorted. Chin up

 

If it wasn't using oil then it is unlikely that there was a pre-existing ringland issue. That would also be evident audibly when starting the car via a hiccup in the engine note.

Could be any number of things that went wrong though. Did you get the dyno graphs of the last run ?

The 2.5 is weaker than the 2.0 (or at least a healthy 2.0)but it isn't weak IMO. Still no reason why these cant be pushed quite hard and have mapped lots of 2.5 wrx engine to 350bhp and above with these being run at this levels for years. There is no reason to be afraid of pushing them so long as good oil, good fuel and the map is right. Please note that I am not saying the map was not right on this but I would def want to strip down the engine to find out what failed and why if only to make sure that when it is all back together that you are solving the problem not the symptom.

 

The bad thing with Subaru is why tune a car for 98ron and above when you know some tight git will stick 95ron in!!!

The car should be able to sort out the difference and retard itself enough to be safely driven on 95ron. Are people just not making too much of a fuss over the fuel??

My hg has just gone on my 2.5sti I simply don't have the money to forge it, the work I'm having done is already £1300 with a clutch aswell. Forging would double it

Once I'm done I'm having a conservative map done for 95ron fuel. Something that will put it roughly around or just over where it is from factory.

Then if It ****s itself, I'm driving it off a cliff

 

The only reason I am considering a forged motor is I use this car as my every day drive and was only looking for a power gain around the 300bhp mark. I knew before buying the car that the 2.5 was problematic but just didnt consider the fact I'd be spending circa £5.5k over and above the 10k I paid for the car in the first place 3 months ago.

I really like the car and I think it's worth going forged if it means I am guaranteed the reliability based on the power goals I am after.

 

mines a daily driver too, with 70k on clock

 

Frankly I am amazed, that opinion is, that if your engine blows during a remap then "thats a risk you take". I am certainly not pointing at the mapper in question simply the general acceptance that it's the risk of the owner alone. When paying in essence a hefty price (if your counting time involved) for the skill and reputation of your mapper of choice then there has to be some onus of responsibility surely. There are risks of component failure but that is why you are paying for a professional to safely programme your ecu with safety margins. Is there any other trade where this would be accepted without proper diagnosis? Not meant to slight jgm but my question is a general one regarding remapping and the risks/consequences of failure.

 

I got gut feeling for you that there more to this than meets the eye, no garage says scarp it, needs new engine, before spending your hard earned money you need see what caused this to go wrong. Otherwise what stopping it happan to your new engine.

The best companies and best people out there do make mistakes(not saying this has happaned here but these things do happan)

The 2.5 engine may be a weak engine but it was not on it limits. I find it bit odd that it not been said that for example piston gone or rod gone though the block ect just an enigine gone.


End of the day your car gone into that garage in perfect working order and your paying for a service. It now broken in the care of the garage that working on it. They will(should) have insurance for problems like this. Something not quite right in my eyes

 

Well this was my initial thoughts but was lead too believe that the risk is mine when tuning a car. I personally consider a remap a very mild form of tuning and considering the variables involved was very surprised when I got the call.

 

Was you told this before hand? If this was me i would not be folking out for a new engine, the car went into the garage in perfect working order and is now broken, you out that in front of a judge and it a clear cut case.

LIke i said before this happaned to us and we had to repair the car back to the standard in came into us after a remap was done. It down to them sorry, the car was in there care.

 

No, was not told this beforehand nor recall signing any indemnities

 

Im sorry but it the garage and mapper who needs to folk the bill or at least some of it, there not alot information coming about what went wrong with the engine, just a broken engine, not something id except of a company who have such a good rep.

In eye of the law, the car gone into a garage for work to be done, no discalmer has been signed and the car now has broken engine,

What worries me that it just stopped, no knocks or smoke, sounding like the car just ran out of oil and wont no longer turn over.

If the car had left the garage then yes the garage would have some kind of come back as you dont know how it been treated or driven but the fact it gone on the rollers while being mapped sounds bit odd to me sorry

 

Well just spoke to Rick and its all speculation at the moment as they haven't pulled the head off so have no idea as to the extent of the damage.

No signs while doing the map that anything was wrong, oil pressure, AFR and all sensors where spot on and then it just cut out. Cambelt still intact and nothing sinister sounding. Just being told the motor only turns slightly by hand and then stops.

 

Doesn't sound like cambelt then, sounds like you may need to get it inspected independantly to see why it failed.

 

Could be a few things, valves, rod or piston if it won't turn beyond a certain point, but it's just a guessing game until it's out and on the bench in pieces.

My approach would be to have a long chat with the mapper and garage and see what they were willing to do, i'm sure they are just as keen to find out what happened as well.

There's no question that your in good hands as mentioned by need4speed, so i'm sure all parties will come to an amicable arrangement, most important thing is to remain calm and talk it through like adults, your dealing with some of the best in the business, I feel confident the service you receive will reflect this.

It's early days yet so just hang fire and see what transpires, I know it's difficult, I've had engines let go on me twice now, and wish at the time I was in the care of the kind of people your with as apposed to the shysters I got involved with.