ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I think England should get a referendum on leaving the union, we'd be £15bn better off and be able to chuck out all the scrounging Scotts.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Sarcasm

Trouble is Scotland would **** themselves if England had a vote. We are good a smelling bull**** organisations

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Lol, I think if we did get a vote on it, it would probably be the lowest turnout in the history of voting... because quite frankly I doubt there are very many people that even care... as I said earlier in the thread... Scotland is just not really on the average English persons radar... even more so now they have their own worries about Brexit.

You'll be pleased to know if it was up to me... I'd give you independence in a heartbeat, who are we to stand in the way of what any country wants.

BMWhere?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there! Its a similar problem with the North/South divide within England. Nearly everything in the UK is London centric and regions are ignored more and more the further away you get! Scotland, Wales and the North of England have been shouting for years about it and yet are continually ignored by Westminster forcing policies that may make sense in London but defy all logic in the North!

Everyone in Scotland is sick to the back teeth of being ignored by England. They know that life will be harder without the Union, but they had enough of just being swept aside and ignored. Theresa May pursuing a Hard Brexit is giving them the middle finger ignoring the will of the Scottish people, and for that matter 48% of all British people. This is the final straw that breaks the camels back, they want to take back control of their own destiny! They know they're going to be f**ked post Brexit, so they may as well do it properly and take independence! They can then at least set their own taxes and policies to attract businesses to move to Scotland.

The real shame is that Wales as a principality rather than a separate country can't as easily do the same and the North of England has no chance!

Tidgy

and there in lies the issue with the whole thing, you have said she is 'pursuing a hard brexit'. Which is total rubbish, she is pursuing a trade deal but the fall back is world trade rules. That's the kind of out of context statement that is driving the whole thing in the media etc.

BMWhere?

Leaving the single market is a Hard Brexit, with or without a trade deal!

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Unless deals are done.

Tidgy

ah now i know where your coming from. Doom and gloom pessimist

BMWhere?

Erm no! A deal that means we stay in the single market is a soft Brexit. A deal where we leave the single market is a hard Brexit.

Staying in the single market would require us to allow EU immigration which Theresa May is ruling out.

We may get a trade deal, but won't have full access - thats a Hard Brexit! WTO rules would be a very Hard Brexit!

I know facts don't sit well with you populist Brexiteers, but you simply can't change the definitions because they don't suit your propaganda!

And for the record, I'm not a pessimist, I'm very much the optimist and you can rest assured I'll be making the most out of Brexit that I can. But what I'm certainly not is dillusional and sucked in by populist bull****!

andy97

iTrader: (1)

WTO isn't a doom gloom scenario, just an alternative

tony de wonderful

Soft and hard Brexit were concepts made up after the referendum result by Remain. They realised that the condition of 'leaving the EU' (as mandated by the referendum result) could be formally fulfilled by us leaving the EU only and staying in the common market. In other words we would stay in the EU in all but name.

If anyone remembers the campaign, the key issue was always about immigration (especially from eastern europe). If we stay in the common market then UKIP 2.0 will be a thorn in the Tories side for ever because the key issue of immigration won't be settled.

Soft Brexit is an attempted con trick which is emblematic of the pro-EU arrogance which got us into this mess.

BMWhere?

So you accept we're heading for a hard Brexit then!

You talk about arrogance of pro-Europeans, yet you refuse to accept that 52% is a tiny majority that certainly does not represent "the people". The vote was pretty much a 50/50 split so surely you should recognise that persuing a hard Brexit is ignoring the will of nearly half the population. If you remember back to the referendum, there was no fixed plan for Brexit and what it means, there was a great deal of talk about Norwegian, Swiss and Icelandic solutions in addition to WTO and trade deals. Immigration may have been a key issue for UKIP, but for the official leave campaign, they often shied away from the immigration issue for fear of being labelled xenophobic. The key issues were the £350M, taking back control and sovereignty.

The fact still remains, Scotland voted with a clear majority to remain in the UK. The Scottish parliament expressed their Brexit views to the Government and as usual, they have been completely ignored. They have every right to feel cheated, particularly given the promises made after the last indyref which have also not been fulfilled. You can't really blame them for wanting out and taking back control and their own sovereignty (sounds familiar!).

The reality is, Theresa May can bang on all she wants about coming together, but the whole Brexit debate has polarised the country and a hard brexit is definitely not what half of the voting population wanted. People are not going to come together over this unless the government is willing to compromise as listen to the other half of the people! This is a huge constitutional change that is going to affect the people for generations to come. In the US, a constitutional change requires a 75% approval from both houses and we're going ahead with a 51.8% approval from an ill informed (you can argue on both sides) public!

tony de wonderful

I'm sorry but it's laughable that you put the £350 million figure as the first 'key issue'. This was a number written on the side of one bus and a few flyers, yet you turn it into THE reason why people voted for Brexit?! Talk about denial. Why do you think sovereignty is important if not to control our borders? Soft Brexit does not return sovereignty that sense.

That's a fair point but the changes to our constitution vis a vis the EU: Rome, Maastricht, Lisbon treaties, etc., required no such test to be passed in the first place.

Tidgy

Eer no, I would say a hard brexit (as the doom sayers have coined the term on) is if we leave and go to world trade rules.

But its a term made up that people don't seem to agree what it actually means, you seem to think it means leaving EU at all.

Tidgy

Wee jimmy krankey has posted on twitter,

'.@scotgov is not proposing #scotref now...but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path.'


'meep meep, this vehicle is reversing' hahahaha how much further will she back up?

jonc

Only because Sturgeon/SNP has acknowledged a growing sentiment of anti-EU Euro skepticism in Scotland. This makes her mandate for calling a 2nd indyref to keep Scotland in the EU pretty much null and void.

May has said categorically her Government will not give Sturgeon permission to hold another indyref during Brexit negotiations. Also the battering she got from Ruth Davison who made some very good points. If only Sturgeon put as much effort in running Scotland as she did pursuing her Independence ambition.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/779...P-Conservative

There's also a petition for her to contend with
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, but this is just pedantry by any other name.

What does it matter WHAT name you give it, it's the final deal that will have the final say, and no matter what the doom sayer media want us to believe.

So far there are far more positives on the radar than negatives, despite the BBC and The Limp Dems,

And even though the Remoaners have somehow "disappeared" every last penny of the £350m a day we ACTUALLY pay for our membership, and keep on bringing up the "fact" that it's gone, NO-ONE is making THEM explain the special budget we were going to need, but didn't get, the WWIII ideas, the £4300 a year it was going to cost every person...and hasn't, the flood of companies that would leave, when actually more investment has happened....

Just more Remoan bullsh!t. They are feeding off one-another, like a bunch of old fishwives. I've already dropped out of one doom-fest thread on here as they were just vying with one another to see who could predict the worse scenario. This will go the same way.

dpb

I'd probably stay, if the right inducements were in place .OUR inducements..

With all the uncertainty otherwise I'd probably be off.

Devildog

Has no one consdered how ****ed the UK is going to be with a hard brexit let by May (and if we are talking odious bitches Jeff, I'll see your Sturgeon and raise you a May)

I suspect the whole "how ****ed will an indpendent Scotland be" will ultimately turn out to be a moot point considering the UK's financial state as a whole is considerably worse than that of Scotland.

There's a lot more to be concerned with right now being Scottish than another indy ref

Devildog

Jeff your ignorance never fails to astound me.

When the cheif economist of LLoyds Bank says (to me, in person, face to face) that the UK will be worse off post Brexit, I chose to believe him rather than wherever you get your misinformation from.

Devildog

Just in the interests of balance

tony de wonderful

If my pay was cut by 1p a year I'd also be worse off, but not significantly.

Devildog

Anyway, and back to a more serious point. Why doesn't England just fu ck off alone out of Europe? Take the Welsh with you if they still have the bottle?

That solves all the problems.

England (and perhaps Wales) get their brexit

Scotland, Northern Ireland (and porbably Wales and Cornwall when they man up to their mistake) remain as the United Kingdom and therefore remain part of the EU.

Its not Scotland who should be seeking independence from the UK. Its England.

Simples.

Devildog

Tony, stop being an ****

john banks

Can you explain this? I am assuming that by a "as a whole" you aren't simply taking the value of the debts and deficits rather than per capita, as that was the only way I could think of to come up with this assertion. Serious question. I was under the impression that Scotland's growth, employment and deficits were all worse than England and they are seriously propping Scotland up given the collapse in oil revenues. How have I been misguided? I thought Scotland was in the midst of a Sturgeon slowdown.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Why, apart from the important little detail that it's a legal and constitutional impossibility, you mean?

dpb

Why not spring a referendum on them next Thursday . That'll put um in a tail spin

Vote out and maybe only few years , five at most for them to get into Europe

Paben

iTrader: (5)

An independent Scotand would be a small part of small island, a tiny fish in an ocean full of sharks. If it retained Sterling then it would be far from independent, controlled by the fiscal decisions of a foreign country. If it ran into trouble then it would be to the Bank of England that Scotland would eventually have to turn for rescue, cap in hand. But London would only bale out Scotland if it was advantageous to the UK to do so, otherwise it would be allowed to drown. Were Scotland to adopt the Euro (assuming it was accepted into the EU) then similar limitations would apply: no one would tolerate another Greece.

An increasing number of people in the UK are sick of hearing the cries for independence by Mrs Sturgeon and her crew, and now would be only too happy to see Scotland clear off, and the sooner the better.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

The Chief of the Bank of england?

You never fail, do you, straight in, both feet.

Lloyds? takers...........

tony de wonderful

The SNP would have an indyref every day if they could.