Seven Royal Marines arrested.
19 October 2012, 06:35 PM
#272
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19 October 2012, 08:02 PM
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Well ok then, finalzero, let's see how you do.
Nope, no correction here. You state that "naskh only exists within the context of Islamic Jurisprudence", well allow me to shine a light on that. First, you use the word "only" in relation to Jurisprudence. For the uninitiated, I should point out that fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) builds on Sharia and incorporates the Sunnah; in other words it is the knowledge of the rules of Allah himself. All a jurist does is interpret the words of the creator of the Universe! Naskh only resides within fiqh. No big deal, clearly.
"When it is used outside of that", what, everything? "e.g. within the Islamic Sciences such as scholarly work", yes
"it must be taken into context." Oh, I see!
This is obfuscation and nothing more.
How do you know that "90% of modern Muslims will not be away (sic) of this term"? What's the source of this statistic? Anyway, let's assume you're right, are you saying that nine out of ten Muslims are ignorant of the fact that the Qur'an is peppered with contradictions and that there's an entire practise dedicated to deciding which contradiction has primacy. Nine out of ten Muslims? That statistic does of course leave 150 million Muslims who know to cherry-pick contradictory 'truths' at will. Still no correction.
So only Jurists (scholars) can understand the concept of abrogation and how it is applied within fiqh? I contest this point. I understand it. No correction.
Reasonably accurate, although restricting Caucasian to people with white skin is erroneous. Still no correction.
So the religion of peace is engaging in sectarian conflict because the Sunnis consider the Shia "deviants" and the Shia disagree. Ok, got that.
I can disagree, finalzero, it's been going on since the seventh century and it's been going on because...wait for it..."Shia's (sic) are considered deviants due to their estoric (sic) beliefs and bent on the whole religion of Islam."
Never mind.
Nope, no correction here. You state that "naskh only exists within the context of Islamic Jurisprudence", well allow me to shine a light on that. First, you use the word "only" in relation to Jurisprudence. For the uninitiated, I should point out that fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) builds on Sharia and incorporates the Sunnah; in other words it is the knowledge of the rules of Allah himself. All a jurist does is interpret the words of the creator of the Universe! Naskh only resides within fiqh. No big deal, clearly.
"When it is used outside of that", what, everything? "e.g. within the Islamic Sciences such as scholarly work", yes
"it must be taken into context." Oh, I see! This is obfuscation and nothing more.
How do you know that "90% of modern Muslims will not be away (sic) of this term"? What's the source of this statistic? Anyway, let's assume you're right, are you saying that nine out of ten Muslims are ignorant of the fact that the Qur'an is peppered with contradictions and that there's an entire practise dedicated to deciding which contradiction has primacy. Nine out of ten Muslims? That statistic does of course leave 150 million Muslims who know to cherry-pick contradictory 'truths' at will. Still no correction.
So only Jurists (scholars) can understand the concept of abrogation and how it is applied within fiqh? I contest this point. I understand it. No correction.
Reasonably accurate, although restricting Caucasian to people with white skin is erroneous. Still no correction.
So the religion of peace is engaging in sectarian conflict because the Sunnis consider the Shia "deviants" and the Shia disagree. Ok, got that.
I can disagree, finalzero, it's been going on since the seventh century and it's been going on because...wait for it..."Shia's (sic) are considered deviants due to their estoric (sic) beliefs and bent on the whole religion of Islam."
Never mind.
There never was any large scale sectarian conflict however the conflict was/is usually created by elements that would benefit from the civil and sectarian unrest.
You seem to dive into specifics to give yourself some enjoyment however unless you are practising Muslim who has sat at the feet of scholars and understood the inner nature of the religion you will not have an understanding of how the "majority" perceive the "minority" and vice versa.
It's easy to obtain information from the internet and claim to have detailed knowledge of the religion (I am not claiming this myself, I have limited knowledge) but as I said, unless you speak to the scholars first hand or sit and listen to their lectures you will not have a true understanding of the religion.
Pointing out race in my post, I am highlighting a fact that the religious denomination is now changing.
In layman terms you have the majority Sunni Muslims, within this you then have a few key groups and/or ideologies (Sufi, Wahabi, Salafi...).
The Sufi order (what I follow) is concerned with the pursuit of the intellect, academic studies, science, spirituality and is predominately non-violent believing in the greater jihad (to bear any difficulties) and we follow teachings of people like Imam Ghazali.
You have the Wahabi's who are predominately fundamentalists, taking a very hard lined approach to Sunni Islam and are now considered by man Sunni scholars as deviants (i.e. they have deviated from the true traditional teachings) and they are extremely intolerant (Wahabi's are a source of concern for all Muslims).
Salafi's are similar, usually found heavily in London etc they appeal to young people with their apparently approachable attitude and teachings however as I have experienced in the past, they harbour very strong (and sometimes extreme views).
The remaining groups consist of Barelvi's, Deobondis, Tabliqi's and so on - some more outside of the folds of the traditional teachings than others.
My teacher has taught me to respect all Muslims, Shia's included so don't try to paint a picture that I am isolating that group, I have prayed with Shia's, some of my friends are Shia's - I take my teachers attitude: We are all the same at the base level, just different approaches.
If you really want to get into specifics I can put you in touch with a real scholar who will correct you on many matters (educated to a high level in the UK and in Islamic studies both here and abroad).
Such matters are not for us to discuss, that is my point, so raising points like "naskh" has no bearing on a persons belief - Islam at a basic level is enough for most people but that does not make them ignorant as you stated. Some people will take the basics and be content with that, others will follow higher pursuits and become teachers and scholars.
One of my favourite Sufi teachers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...h-2057400.html
Peace be on you.
Last edited by finalzero; 19 October 2012 at 08:04 PM.
19 October 2012, 08:17 PM
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finalzero, all very eloquent. 
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
19 October 2012, 09:20 PM
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finalzero, all very eloquent.
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
In fact the reason I don't go mosque is because it is boring. I'd rather sit with a bunch of guys and talk about how hard the mujahideen were, cars and who's to blame for Pakistans failure then slag off the UK. I not agree with the debate but its a lot more interesting than discussing difference in sects.
The only sect I hate with a passion is the American Nation of Islam group. If I ever come across them they will face abuse.
Last edited by Shaid; 19 October 2012 at 09:30 PM.
19 October 2012, 09:40 PM
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One of my favourite Sufi teachers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...h-2057400.html
Peace be on you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...h-2057400.html
Peace be on you.
19 October 2012, 09:42 PM
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19 October 2012, 10:55 PM
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finalzero, all very eloquent.
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
But couldn't you just live your life? Without any of that? Just get up, brush your teeth, be a good person, strive to be the best you can be, have a cup of Horlicks, turn the light out, and repeat? What on Earth does it give you that you cannot give yourself?
What does it give? Haha that's the million pound question.
For me, it connects the dots, my physical world, who I am to the meta-physical world (the realm of spirituality).
It balances my equation, day to day, I am a very down to earth, driven person like anyone else (working as a Software Engineer) but for me, the Sufi path offers a way of seeing things differently.
And that's my answer in a nutshell, I get a different perspective on life, I get to see things differently to help me better understand my world (at the same time not excluding your point of view either).
Like taking an Acid trip but without the crazy side effects (mostly).
There is something there, that connects me, I can't really put it into words but it does, my particular choice of belief happens to be that platform for it but there is no reason why someone who is not 'religious' in any sense can't have that same experience.
19 October 2012, 11:01 PM
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Most of us do and happen to be Muslim and try and be all goody two shoes etc. it's only because everyone keeps getting Muslamic on us hence why we have to give an answer.
In fact the reason I don't go mosque is because it is boring. I'd rather sit with a bunch of guys and talk about how hard the mujahideen were, cars and who's to blame for Pakistans failure then slag off the UK. I not agree with the debate but its a lot more interesting than discussing difference in sects.
The only sect I hate with a passion is the American Nation of Islam group. If I ever come across them they will face abuse.
In fact the reason I don't go mosque is because it is boring. I'd rather sit with a bunch of guys and talk about how hard the mujahideen were, cars and who's to blame for Pakistans failure then slag off the UK. I not agree with the debate but its a lot more interesting than discussing difference in sects.
The only sect I hate with a passion is the American Nation of Islam group. If I ever come across them they will face abuse.
20 October 2012, 01:13 AM
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Hey, wait till our friend Mr Taylor hears about the Nation of Islam mothership 
http://www.thenationofislam.org/themotherplane.html
I really can't understand why they hate America so much.
Oh and those hats (in the video where a white Muslim rips them a new one lol)
http://www.thenationofislam.org/themotherplane.html
1. The Mother Plane is made of the finest steel in Asia.
2. It was made on the Island of Nippon (Japan) in 1929, and also took flight that same year.
3. Black, Brown, Red and Yellow Scientists built the Mother Plane.
4. The Scientists did not know what they were building.
5. Her size is Half-mile by Half-mile square.
6. Her shape is oval.
7. Her speed is up to 9,000 miles per hour.
8. Her flying ability is nine thousand (9,000) miles per hour in any direction, up or down, to or fro, in any direction without making a complete directional turn.
9. Her contents are 1,500 small circular planes, as the devil calls them, "FLYING SAUCERS."
10. These small planes carry three (3) bombs each, they also shoot flames of fire.
11. The Black men who pilot these small planes have been taught from the age of six that they are to do a special job.
12. These pilots can hit any spot in America, blindfolded, as the Devil will soon see.
13. The bombs that the small planes contain weigh two tons each.
14. They are designed to drill into the Earth upon contact, and drill from one (1) to six (6) miles through stone and rock, and to explode, destroying civilization or any living matter (or life) within a fifty (50) mile radius.
15. After these bombs explode, a poisonous gas is found to snuff out the remaining life, if any still exists.
16. The purpose of the Mother Plane is to destroy the most wicked place ever to be on the planet Earth at any time (America, the Great Mystery Babylon).
17. Her position is 40 miles out from the Earth's sphere.
18. She holds this position from 6 to 12 months at a time. When this time is
up, the Mother Plane comes into the atmosphere to take in fresh air for our Brothers inside, then she retakes her position.
19. At the dropping of the bombs, the flames will reach twelve (12) miles, in all directions.
20. When the destruction comes, America will burn 390 years and take 610 years to cool off. The Great Mystery Babylon (America) will perish in the flames of fire.
Allah will even cause the air which we breathe to ignite along with the
atmosphere. Every atom will burn in and over America from a height of twelve (12) miles down.
2. It was made on the Island of Nippon (Japan) in 1929, and also took flight that same year.
3. Black, Brown, Red and Yellow Scientists built the Mother Plane.
4. The Scientists did not know what they were building.
5. Her size is Half-mile by Half-mile square.
6. Her shape is oval.
7. Her speed is up to 9,000 miles per hour.
8. Her flying ability is nine thousand (9,000) miles per hour in any direction, up or down, to or fro, in any direction without making a complete directional turn.
9. Her contents are 1,500 small circular planes, as the devil calls them, "FLYING SAUCERS."
10. These small planes carry three (3) bombs each, they also shoot flames of fire.
11. The Black men who pilot these small planes have been taught from the age of six that they are to do a special job.
12. These pilots can hit any spot in America, blindfolded, as the Devil will soon see.
13. The bombs that the small planes contain weigh two tons each.
14. They are designed to drill into the Earth upon contact, and drill from one (1) to six (6) miles through stone and rock, and to explode, destroying civilization or any living matter (or life) within a fifty (50) mile radius.
15. After these bombs explode, a poisonous gas is found to snuff out the remaining life, if any still exists.
16. The purpose of the Mother Plane is to destroy the most wicked place ever to be on the planet Earth at any time (America, the Great Mystery Babylon).
17. Her position is 40 miles out from the Earth's sphere.
18. She holds this position from 6 to 12 months at a time. When this time is
up, the Mother Plane comes into the atmosphere to take in fresh air for our Brothers inside, then she retakes her position.
19. At the dropping of the bombs, the flames will reach twelve (12) miles, in all directions.
20. When the destruction comes, America will burn 390 years and take 610 years to cool off. The Great Mystery Babylon (America) will perish in the flames of fire.
Allah will even cause the air which we breathe to ignite along with the
atmosphere. Every atom will burn in and over America from a height of twelve (12) miles down.
Oh and those hats (in the video where a white Muslim rips them a new one lol)
20 October 2012, 12:36 PM
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Shaid, this ^ has beaten all the mythology available around the world!
Very futuristic. Will Smith should get some inspiration from this script for his new film.
20 October 2012, 10:02 PM
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My point Mr JTaylor is that for the average Muslim, this is not of concern because the basic foundations of the belief are adequate. Unless you are following the footsteps of becoming a scholar or a teacher you will not be concerned with the specifics, only that you are following one of the four schools of thought (in the Sunni tradition).
There never was any large scale sectarian conflict however the conflict was/is usually created by elements that would benefit from the civil and sectarian unrest.
You seem to dive into specifics to give yourself some enjoyment however unless you are practising Muslim who has sat at the feet of scholars and understood the inner nature of the religion you will not have an understanding of how the "majority" perceive the "minority" and vice versa.
It's easy to obtain information from the internet and claim to have detailed knowledge of the religion (I am not claiming this myself, I have limited knowledge) but as I said, unless you speak to the scholars first hand or sit and listen to their lectures you will not have a true understanding of the religion.
Pointing out race in my post, I am highlighting a fact that the religious denomination is now changing.
In layman terms you have the majority Sunni Muslims, within this you then have a few key groups and/or ideologies (Sufi, Wahabi, Salafi...).
The Sufi order (what I follow) is concerned with the pursuit of the intellect, academic studies, science, spirituality and is predominately non-violent believing in the greater jihad (to bear any difficulties) and we follow teachings of people like Imam Ghazali.
You have the Wahabi's who are predominately fundamentalists, taking a very hard lined approach to Sunni Islam and are now considered by man Sunni scholars as deviants (i.e. they have deviated from the true traditional teachings) and they are extremely intolerant (Wahabi's are a source of concern for all Muslims).
Salafi's are similar, usually found heavily in London etc they appeal to young people with their apparently approachable attitude and teachings however as I have experienced in the past, they harbour very strong (and sometimes extreme views).
The remaining groups consist of Barelvi's, Deobondis, Tabliqi's and so on - some more outside of the folds of the traditional teachings than others.
My teacher has taught me to respect all Muslims, Shia's included so don't try to paint a picture that I am isolating that group, I have prayed with Shia's, some of my friends are Shia's - I take my teachers attitude: We are all the same at the base level, just different approaches.
If you really want to get into specifics I can put you in touch with a real scholar who will correct you on many matters (educated to a high level in the UK and in Islamic studies both here and abroad).
Such matters are not for us to discuss, that is my point, so raising points like "naskh" has no bearing on a persons belief - Islam at a basic level is enough for most people but that does not make them ignorant as you stated. Some people will take the basics and be content with that, others will follow higher pursuits and become teachers and scholars.
One of my favourite Sufi teachers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...h-2057400.html
Peace be on you.
There never was any large scale sectarian conflict however the conflict was/is usually created by elements that would benefit from the civil and sectarian unrest.
You seem to dive into specifics to give yourself some enjoyment however unless you are practising Muslim who has sat at the feet of scholars and understood the inner nature of the religion you will not have an understanding of how the "majority" perceive the "minority" and vice versa.
It's easy to obtain information from the internet and claim to have detailed knowledge of the religion (I am not claiming this myself, I have limited knowledge) but as I said, unless you speak to the scholars first hand or sit and listen to their lectures you will not have a true understanding of the religion.
Pointing out race in my post, I am highlighting a fact that the religious denomination is now changing.
In layman terms you have the majority Sunni Muslims, within this you then have a few key groups and/or ideologies (Sufi, Wahabi, Salafi...).
The Sufi order (what I follow) is concerned with the pursuit of the intellect, academic studies, science, spirituality and is predominately non-violent believing in the greater jihad (to bear any difficulties) and we follow teachings of people like Imam Ghazali.
You have the Wahabi's who are predominately fundamentalists, taking a very hard lined approach to Sunni Islam and are now considered by man Sunni scholars as deviants (i.e. they have deviated from the true traditional teachings) and they are extremely intolerant (Wahabi's are a source of concern for all Muslims).
Salafi's are similar, usually found heavily in London etc they appeal to young people with their apparently approachable attitude and teachings however as I have experienced in the past, they harbour very strong (and sometimes extreme views).
The remaining groups consist of Barelvi's, Deobondis, Tabliqi's and so on - some more outside of the folds of the traditional teachings than others.
My teacher has taught me to respect all Muslims, Shia's included so don't try to paint a picture that I am isolating that group, I have prayed with Shia's, some of my friends are Shia's - I take my teachers attitude: We are all the same at the base level, just different approaches.
If you really want to get into specifics I can put you in touch with a real scholar who will correct you on many matters (educated to a high level in the UK and in Islamic studies both here and abroad).
Such matters are not for us to discuss, that is my point, so raising points like "naskh" has no bearing on a persons belief - Islam at a basic level is enough for most people but that does not make them ignorant as you stated. Some people will take the basics and be content with that, others will follow higher pursuits and become teachers and scholars.
One of my favourite Sufi teachers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...h-2057400.html
Peace be on you.
Search JTaylor and esoteric. I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth.
Last edited by JTaylor; 20 October 2012 at 11:30 PM.
20 October 2012, 10:12 PM
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Hey, wait till our friend Mr Taylor hears about the Nation of Islam mothership
http://www.thenationofislam.org/themotherplane.html
I really can't understand why they hate America so much.
Oh and those hats (in the video where a white Muslim rips them a new one lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZj5s...feature=fvwrel
http://www.thenationofislam.org/themotherplane.html
I really can't understand why they hate America so much.
Oh and those hats (in the video where a white Muslim rips them a new one lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZj5s...feature=fvwrel
Post 10 and 56 - it was a quarter of a century ago.
21 October 2012, 10:49 AM
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I was going to respond paragraph by paragraph, but I arrived at paragraph six and decided against it. Why? I was being tested on this at the age of eleven at Devonport High School for Boys by Ron Faulkner, the Deputy Head. I'm thirty six now and I have a quarter of a century of additional learning under my belt.
Search JTaylor and esoteric. I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth.
Search JTaylor and esoteric. I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth.
21 October 2012, 11:02 AM
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State clearly that about which I am wrong. No obscurantism or obfuscation, just identify the fallacy. I give you my word that if it stands I'll acknowledge it and submit.
21 October 2012, 09:53 PM
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I was going to respond paragraph by paragraph, but I arrived at paragraph six and decided against it. Why? I was being tested on this at the age of eleven at Devonport High School for Boys by Ron Faulkner, the Deputy Head. I'm thirty six now and I have a quarter of a century of additional learning under my belt.
Search JTaylor and esoteric. I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth.
Search JTaylor and esoteric. I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth.
If you will forgive me for my prejudgement, you come across (at least on this thread) as exactly what you stated, an 11 year old who has academic knowledge but lacks any wisdom to go with that knowledge.
I have come across many people like that, they have quantities of information stored in their head and are able to debate many a people but they seem to lack an understanding of some basic things and often see the surface information but not the (somewhat) hidden wisdom that comes from having a degree of humility.
Those people that do carry the burden of the information they have amassed well enough tend, in most cases to be quite humble, withdrawn even to some extent...maybe they start to see the world for what it is, certainly it must be from sitting pondering the knowledge they have gained.
It is easy to gain degree after degree, gain an academic standing or quantify your knowledge (the width of it and the length) but it is nothing more than just information and I have often found people who fit this characterisation, simply use that knowledge to bully other people around them and elevate their over inflated ego even further.
I am not saying you are like this, it would be ill conceived of me to assume so much from a simple thread but I say things how they are and right now you appear to fit the above category very well.
I have met all kinds of people in my life, from the incredibly arrogant self centred ignoramuses to the common person on the street and I have found those who possess a little bit of knowledge and accept they do, often have the greatest wisdom (because they sit and ponder about what they do have) and this usually humbles them.
I like to think of myself as one of those people. I might not be academic or have the appearance of someone educated but I have learn't a thing or two along the way and I would like to think I am smart enough to be good at my job.
So you could sit and rub shoulders with these people on an academic level, but I doubt you would have the depth of understanding that comes from gaining true wisdom, accepting that with all the knowledge you gain, you ultimately know very little (and Dr Timothy Winters is a good example of someone who is humbled by that knowledge).
So I will leave you with some Sufi wisdom:
"A pot made of clay only serves a purpose when it holds something of benefit for the person possessing the pot and/or the person receiving the pot."
Most people look at the pot and admire it's form and construction but they will miss it's true purpose, that it can provide benefit to people around it, such as life giving water...This is often called the "Transmission of Blessings".
Peace
Last edited by finalzero; 21 October 2012 at 10:16 PM.
21 October 2012, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for the response, finalzero. Just to clarify, where I state "I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth", that was intended to acknowledge that I feel no hostility toward Sufism, my contempt is reserved for the sects you outline in paragraphs 8 and 9 of post 273; they're in opposition to everything I believe.
I'll consider your final two paragraphs.
I'll consider your final two paragraphs.
21 October 2012, 11:17 PM
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Thanks for the response, finalzero. Just to clarify, where I state "I can rub along with the Sufi for what it's worth", that was intended to acknowledge that I feel no hostility toward Sufism, my contempt is reserved for the sects you outline in paragraphs 8 and 9 of post 273; they're in opposition to everything I believe.
I'll consider your final two paragraphs.
I'll consider your final two paragraphs.
I can empathise with your contempt, the threat from those groups is very real as they oppose everything any good society stands for.
Their influence is worrying me, I have seen how they work and they prey on peoples anger as well using rhetoric that appeals to young academics. When you talk to these people, any humility is gone, instead you are confronted with a abrasive character.
However I am generalising here, there are good people in walks of life.
22 October 2012, 09:24 AM
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