W/b vs stock 02 ?
13 January 2013, 09:25 AM
#31
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What can I say , I've been told it don't work , I've now had my car on one of the country's most known dynos and its come back showing afrs the same as I've got in my map and the same as my logs in the range that I've logged in
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
13 January 2013, 10:17 AM
#32
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What can I say , I've been told it don't work , I've now had my car on one of the country's most known dynos and its come back showing afrs the same as I've got in my map and the same as my logs in the range that I've logged in
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
People dont like change mate, Keep on plugging away
13 January 2013, 10:50 AM
#34
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What can I say , I've been told it don't work , I've now had my car on one of the country's most known dynos and its come back showing afrs the same as I've got in my map and the same as my logs in the range that I've logged in
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
So what more can you do , and still it's said " it can't be right "
So if somebody would like to tell me how else to prove it works ,I'm all ears
Obviously the clinics equipment is wrong now
Unbelievable
I cannot remember the details of your car, so just remind me, you are on STi pink injectors ?
13 January 2013, 12:29 PM
#36
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I've had the car on a known dyno at a known place and it comes up with the same result
Are you saying the clinics equipment is not correct
The fact ( fact ) that the dyno run showed exactly what the 02 said it is in o/l up to redline
It's now here in black and white
No martyn I'm running modded stock , flowing at 730
And as for fluke ,
Two dynos , two places , at different times , with different set ups and its a fluke also others have used the same methods and had comparable tesults to an aftermarket w/b coupled to the fact I don't understand
Come on guys this really is getting silly
13 January 2013, 01:18 PM
#37
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What you have shown is that on those particular power runs, in those conditions, on those occasions there was correlation between the dyno (hopefully) wideband and your estimation. You are now hoping to extrapolate that situation so that when you increase your boost (and the mass, temperature and pressure of exhaust gases leaving the turbine vs wastegate presumably quite near your oxygen sensor now at the top of the downpipe?), running a different EGT, different ignition timing altering combustion, a different place on your MAF scaling, a different fuel pressure with a different point on your fuel pump pressure vs flow map and perhaps other tweaks which may fix or introduce leaks, you hope that your estimation will still be correct. That is an errant hope until proven so your future AFR will always be in question.
You're not thinking about this with a scientific, logical or engineering mind and the sort of approach you're taking may get lucky but is considered bad practice because of uncontrolled variables. Correlation on a few occasions does not imply accuracy and that is the point that I was trying to get across to your five months ago and still am. Ignorance of this fact can and does produce astonishing errors, so you're left with faith, hope and love to keep you correct. Good luck with that.
None of this is to do with open source or DIY mapping, or even sensible saving of money BTW, it is simply due to cowboy methods that will reduce the safe output you can get and either waste the potential of the engine or damage it unnecessarily, perhaps both. If you wish to overturn established principles of scientific method that have been devised over centuries to protect the unwary from falsehood, you're arguing it at primary school level and will have to up your game to convince anyone that knows what they are doing that we can throw away widebands.
You're not thinking about this with a scientific, logical or engineering mind and the sort of approach you're taking may get lucky but is considered bad practice because of uncontrolled variables. Correlation on a few occasions does not imply accuracy and that is the point that I was trying to get across to your five months ago and still am. Ignorance of this fact can and does produce astonishing errors, so you're left with faith, hope and love to keep you correct. Good luck with that.
None of this is to do with open source or DIY mapping, or even sensible saving of money BTW, it is simply due to cowboy methods that will reduce the safe output you can get and either waste the potential of the engine or damage it unnecessarily, perhaps both. If you wish to overturn established principles of scientific method that have been devised over centuries to protect the unwary from falsehood, you're arguing it at primary school level and will have to up your game to convince anyone that knows what they are doing that we can throw away widebands.
Last edited by john banks; 13 January 2013 at 01:24 PM.
13 January 2013, 02:30 PM
#38
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John I really do think you are looking at this far to scientifically
And introducing scenarios that could and do happen
At the end of the day it's a sensor , and the same as any sensor it will have flaws
Heat , pressure , wear , will affect all sensors some way or other
Now lets look at this logically in the original location the sensor does the job of controlling c/l it will still be subject to various temps , pressure , leaks , but will still try and function for its purpose ( and with the exception of failure does)
Now I've had my car on the dyno twice and with two totally different set ups , boost , fuel , timing ect and ambient temps the afr has been what's expected
Now you know me I only say what I see and I'm not about to doubt what's in black and white ( why should I )
Now if my afrs came back and they were dangerous or even out I would be the first to post "hey guys it don't work " but I can't because it does and is
With various boost ign ect
And you still seem take for granted that an aftermarket w/b is perfect ( it's not )
It will still be subject to poor location , leaks , wear
And ultimately the user reading what he's seeing
You know I'm gonna carry on regardless and with my last couple of afr readings why shouldn't I
You can say I'm wrong as much as you like John but I can't see how you can argue with the afrs I've targeted and achieved and have in black and white
I still stand by what I say , yes you can use a stock rescaled & repositioned 02
And introducing scenarios that could and do happen
At the end of the day it's a sensor , and the same as any sensor it will have flaws
Heat , pressure , wear , will affect all sensors some way or other
Now lets look at this logically in the original location the sensor does the job of controlling c/l it will still be subject to various temps , pressure , leaks , but will still try and function for its purpose ( and with the exception of failure does)
Now I've had my car on the dyno twice and with two totally different set ups , boost , fuel , timing ect and ambient temps the afr has been what's expected
Now you know me I only say what I see and I'm not about to doubt what's in black and white ( why should I )
Now if my afrs came back and they were dangerous or even out I would be the first to post "hey guys it don't work " but I can't because it does and is
With various boost ign ect
And you still seem take for granted that an aftermarket w/b is perfect ( it's not )
It will still be subject to poor location , leaks , wear
And ultimately the user reading what he's seeing
You know I'm gonna carry on regardless and with my last couple of afr readings why shouldn't I
You can say I'm wrong as much as you like John but I can't see how you can argue with the afrs I've targeted and achieved and have in black and white
I still stand by what I say , yes you can use a stock rescaled & repositioned 02
13 January 2013, 03:31 PM
#39
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John I really do think you are looking at this far to scientifically
And introducing scenarios that could and do happen
At the end of the day it's a sensor , and the same as any sensor it will have flaws
Heat , pressure , wear , will affect all sensors some way or other
Now lets look at this logically in the original location the sensor does the job of controlling c/l it will still be subject to various temps , pressure , leaks , but will still try and function for its purpose ( and with the exception of failure does)
Now I've had my car on the dyno twice and with two totally different set ups , boost , fuel , timing ect and ambient temps the afr has been what's expected
Now you know me I only say what I see and I'm not about to doubt what's in black and white ( why should I )
Now if my afrs came back and they were dangerous or even out I would be the first to post "hey guys it don't work " but I can't because it does and is
With various boost ign ect
With various boost ign ect
And you still seem take for granted that an aftermarket w/b is perfect ( it's not )
It will still be subject to poor location , leaks , wear
And ultimately the user reading what he's seeing
You know I'm gonna carry on regardless and with my last couple of afr readings why shouldn't I
You can say I'm wrong as much as you like John but I can't see how you can argue with the afrs I've targeted and achieved and have in black and white
I still stand by what I say , yes you can use a stock rescaled & repositioned 02
I still stand by what I say , yes you can use a stock rescaled & repositioned 02
13 January 2013, 03:59 PM
#40
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John the dyno runs are not an attempt to prove that the 02 is usable , it just so happens the afr results on more than one occasion were acceptable
You obviously want to argue data that is in black and white
And my engine is fine ( especially considering the mileage ) and also to the contrary to what yourself and others have said
So yet again we disagree and move on
But I'm sure ill be back again reporting the same findings
And it will yet again no doubt be regarded as a fluke
You obviously want to argue data that is in black and white
And my engine is fine ( especially considering the mileage ) and also to the contrary to what yourself and others have said
So yet again we disagree and move on
But I'm sure ill be back again reporting the same findings
And it will yet again no doubt be regarded as a fluke
13 January 2013, 07:53 PM
#41
Ecu Specialist
Thats brilliant, graphs? Don't forget to put the boost and afr graphs up as well. SC will/should have given you power and torque at the fly, power and torque at the wheels, afr and power, boost and power if they follow their normal practice.
John how are you these days followed your EVO adventures with great interest .... words of wisdom are seldom heeded etc. etc. You have spent more time modifying and using open source EVO roms than almost anyone else I know. Notwithstanding your Impreza adventures.
ToneH if you have achieved similar afr's then as John states thats good fortune, if anyone doubts that then if they bring their car to me I will put my wide band equipment on it and categorically prove that the std oem sensor scaling allows such a wide range of actual afr's on wot its not possible to be definitive based on those readings alone, and you are welcome to sit behind me and observe exactly what I do.
But stick the graphs up a good result deserves recognition.
cheers
bob
John how are you these days followed your EVO adventures with great interest .... words of wisdom are seldom heeded etc. etc. You have spent more time modifying and using open source EVO roms than almost anyone else I know. Notwithstanding your Impreza adventures.
ToneH if you have achieved similar afr's then as John states thats good fortune, if anyone doubts that then if they bring their car to me I will put my wide band equipment on it and categorically prove that the std oem sensor scaling allows such a wide range of actual afr's on wot its not possible to be definitive based on those readings alone, and you are welcome to sit behind me and observe exactly what I do.
But stick the graphs up a good result deserves recognition.
cheers
bob
13 January 2013, 08:15 PM
#42
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Hi Bob, doing great thanks, hope you are too. I'm still mostly enjoying the day job, but dip my toes in the cars from time to time if anything interesting comes up. About two years ago made the decision that I was going to focus on the day job, up until then I wondered from time to time about leaving medicine and doing automotive stuff full time, either employed or self employed. With reverse engineering to make it a sustainable business it would need the formation of a multi-platform supporting company with all the support staff and profitable products and my present situation is perhaps too comfortable compared to the uncertainty of that. Since I made that decision I've been enjoying medicine much more and feel more settled and am not presently doing anything with cars, but if something interesting comes up in future I might do more as a hobbyist or work on some interesting projects. I tend to get a bit too stuck in though and end up working two jobs and whilst thrilling for me for a while, it is too much. I'm sure you've juggled similarly over the years and know what I mean. I did realise that my interest was more in reverse engineering than tuning, but having done the R35 and with no equally exciting tuner cars coming out there is nothing that takes my fancy presently. The BMW stuff is interesting, but like most Euro stuff seems to depend on backdoor of the factory info rather than genuine reverse engineering as they are just too damn complex to decipher and have lots of security.
I sold the Evo nearly 4 years ago and got an R35. For a couple of years I worked for Cobb reverse engineering the R35 and adding features (realtime map alteration, map switching, speed density, limit removal, launch control, boost algorithms etc) but got as far as I could with the 2009 model at the same time as taking on more at the practice, buying a farm steading that needed a load of building work which I'm getting stuck in with and helping my wife setup LaserFlair in the outbuildings.
I sold the Evo nearly 4 years ago and got an R35. For a couple of years I worked for Cobb reverse engineering the R35 and adding features (realtime map alteration, map switching, speed density, limit removal, launch control, boost algorithms etc) but got as far as I could with the 2009 model at the same time as taking on more at the practice, buying a farm steading that needed a load of building work which I'm getting stuck in with and helping my wife setup LaserFlair in the outbuildings.
Last edited by john banks; 13 January 2013 at 08:16 PM.
13 January 2013, 08:26 PM
#43
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Hi North Pole bob , pmsl
Bob no matter what I post up there will be no point at all , as you all say its just a fluke , you carry on with what you're doing
Now according to various posts I've read on 22b , other forums ect
it was not that long ago John had trouble scaling a maf because of headroom and had to be advised to try l/v
Simon was mapping cars with loose pipes
Duncan wasn't even mapping his own car
It's all a total load of bollox
None of you have helped with mapping advice at all
The only reason you all pop on here is to Line you're pockets , and after chatting to quite a few folk it's not only me that thinks along those lines
Generally you all target the guys that tend to know litetle about their vehicle then do a 2/3 hr map and drive to the next punter
Happy shopper mapping one may say ,
You have all made mistakes and you all need advice on some topic or other , yet keep portraying this all knowing image
There's a certain circle on here that are in each others pockets to such an extent you must keep you're wallet in someone else's trousers
Bob no matter what I post up there will be no point at all , as you all say its just a fluke , you carry on with what you're doing
Now according to various posts I've read on 22b , other forums ect
it was not that long ago John had trouble scaling a maf because of headroom and had to be advised to try l/v
Simon was mapping cars with loose pipes
Duncan wasn't even mapping his own car
It's all a total load of bollox
None of you have helped with mapping advice at all
The only reason you all pop on here is to Line you're pockets , and after chatting to quite a few folk it's not only me that thinks along those lines
Generally you all target the guys that tend to know litetle about their vehicle then do a 2/3 hr map and drive to the next punter
Happy shopper mapping one may say ,
You have all made mistakes and you all need advice on some topic or other , yet keep portraying this all knowing image
There's a certain circle on here that are in each others pockets to such an extent you must keep you're wallet in someone else's trousers
Last edited by toneh; 13 January 2013 at 08:35 PM.
13 January 2013, 08:45 PM
#44
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I was asking about mapping a Subaru OEM ECU when I hadn't done one for about 5 years, no shame in that, I got some good advice, but ended up using a Haltech. Before and after that I declined many requests to map cars I wasn't up to date on and only did this one gratis for a friend who trusted me but realised I needed to get up to speed with it.
I presently have no camp whether commercial or open source and have no financial interest of any sort in anyone's beliefs about O2 sensors!
You also have Bob dead wrong. When I started tuning Subarus he was already established, experienced and in demand, for good reason. Although geographically remote, some of my activity did overlap the same customers, but he was genuinely helpful and gracious when he could easily have not been, and if you read his offer that you have rather rudely rebuffed, his kindness is being shown again where it isn't deserved.
I presently have no camp whether commercial or open source and have no financial interest of any sort in anyone's beliefs about O2 sensors!
You also have Bob dead wrong. When I started tuning Subarus he was already established, experienced and in demand, for good reason. Although geographically remote, some of my activity did overlap the same customers, but he was genuinely helpful and gracious when he could easily have not been, and if you read his offer that you have rather rudely rebuffed, his kindness is being shown again where it isn't deserved.
13 January 2013, 09:01 PM
#45
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As far as the circle of mappers go that frequent this forum
I would rather blow 10 engines in my quest for learning than ask any advice from said bunch
So I'll make it plain and simple
Shove you're advice
I would rather blow 10 engines in my quest for learning than ask any advice from said bunch
So I'll make it plain and simple
Shove you're advice
,Bob for one is a genuine top guy ..... really helpful and i wouldnt use anyone else personally.
13 January 2013, 09:06 PM
#47
Tone, I've followed your posts with great interest and at the start sided with you but your post against Bob really does portray you as a bit of a ****!
To be fair, how can you expect to be taken serious with the anti climax which was your car being dyno'd and wasn't even run with any "proper" boost...FFS, the dyno run even had its own thread!
I remember posts where you challenged anyone to sit in your car to prove that the car was this and that but when it came to it, you lost your minerals fella and with it, a large part of your argument.
I'm sorry if that comes across harsh fella.
To be fair, how can you expect to be taken serious with the anti climax which was your car being dyno'd and wasn't even run with any "proper" boost...FFS, the dyno run even had its own thread!
I remember posts where you challenged anyone to sit in your car to prove that the car was this and that but when it came to it, you lost your minerals fella and with it, a large part of your argument.
I'm sorry if that comes across harsh fella.
13 January 2013, 09:20 PM
#48
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But it's the attitude that I can't stomach
I know for a fact they have all made mistakes and are not perfect all the time , but the condescending attitude ( all the time gets too much )
I have no financial interest in mapping , that is common knowledge
Yet I've requested help from a few of these so called helpful mappers and not one will even offer an insight or advice on the actual process
John it's all well and good pointing on here about bobs offer , but not one has said I'm at such and such on this date pop along and have a look or watch the basics and maybe you can pick some bits and bobs up
I've never asked for an indepth lesson , nor to take up valuable time , just a few pointers , but not one has given such advice , the only advice that is forthcoming is done in a condescending manner on things I have already done
13 January 2013, 09:31 PM
#49
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Tone, I've followed your posts with great interest and at the start sided with you but your post against Bob really does portray you as a bit of a ****!
To be fair, how can you expect to be taken serious with the anti climax which was your car being dyno'd and wasn't even run with any "proper" boost...FFS, the dyno run even had its own thread!
I remember posts where you challenged anyone to sit in your car to prove that the car was this and that but when it came to it, you lost your minerals fella and with it, a large part of your argument.
I'm sorry if that comes across harsh fella.
To be fair, how can you expect to be taken serious with the anti climax which was your car being dyno'd and wasn't even run with any "proper" boost...FFS, the dyno run even had its own thread!
I remember posts where you challenged anyone to sit in your car to prove that the car was this and that but when it came to it, you lost your minerals fella and with it, a large part of your argument.
I'm sorry if that comes across harsh fella.
I've been pretty honest about my car and I'm sorry on the day it wasn't what you ( or I ) wanted
But tbh there is a lot more to this than my mapping
There are folk that have the same opinion as me but are a lot more knowledgable but cannot speak out for various reasons
It's not an argument mate , it's not me vs them
They have been put on a pedestal generally by people who have little knowledge , now you speak to a few that do know and you start to see a different side
13 January 2013, 10:44 PM
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You request advice or insight, but whenever I offer any or see anyone else offering it, you reject it and already have a fixed opinion. From your postings and the way you reason things I wouldn't let you tune my lawnmower. The amount of free advice, work and mods I've put into the open source community over the years is considerable and I've never come across such an attitude. You have single handedly killed any chance this forum had to attract interesting and informed opinion and debate.
Bob for one is a mine of information and help, but like me I suspect he'll have better things to do with his time when his input is so disdainfully ignored.
FWIW, I got 358 BHP out of a TD05-16G setup not too different to your spec on a Maha dyno, during the same session another MY00 UK turbo that was supposed to have 215 BHP did 220 BHP with a full decat exhaust. Once you substantially beat these numbers on this turbo I'll listen to how you did it.
Bob for one is a mine of information and help, but like me I suspect he'll have better things to do with his time when his input is so disdainfully ignored.
FWIW, I got 358 BHP out of a TD05-16G setup not too different to your spec on a Maha dyno, during the same session another MY00 UK turbo that was supposed to have 215 BHP did 220 BHP with a full decat exhaust. Once you substantially beat these numbers on this turbo I'll listen to how you did it.
14 January 2013, 12:40 AM
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Wait. Is this the same toneh who wrote this:
https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...&postcount=132
https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...&postcount=132
but IMHO to do slagging about individuals work on the net is not the done thing
14 January 2013, 06:17 PM
#53
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They have all done something wrong at some time or other
All
I'm not a fan of naming and shaming one individual
My point is no one is perfect and the all knowing attitude , even the best have made errors , and not always done things by the book
And in the post above I say " they all do a decent job"
If you think my above comments as slagging off , think again !
I have refrained from posting a lot
So may I suggest we leave it at that
14 January 2013, 07:44 PM
#54
Thats brilliant, graphs? Don't forget to put the boost and afr graphs up as well. SC will/should have given you power and torque at the fly, power and torque at the wheels, afr and power, boost and power if they follow their normal practice.
John how are you these days followed your EVO adventures with great interest .... words of wisdom are seldom heeded etc. etc. You have spent more time modifying and using open source EVO roms than almost anyone else I know. Notwithstanding your Impreza adventures.
ToneH if you have achieved similar afr's then as John states thats good fortune, if anyone doubts that then if they bring their car to me I will put my wide band equipment on it and categorically prove that the std oem sensor scaling allows such a wide range of actual afr's on wot its not possible to be definitive based on those readings alone, and you are welcome to sit behind me and observe exactly what I do.
But stick the graphs up a good result deserves recognition.
cheers
bob
John how are you these days followed your EVO adventures with great interest .... words of wisdom are seldom heeded etc. etc. You have spent more time modifying and using open source EVO roms than almost anyone else I know. Notwithstanding your Impreza adventures.
ToneH if you have achieved similar afr's then as John states thats good fortune, if anyone doubts that then if they bring their car to me I will put my wide band equipment on it and categorically prove that the std oem sensor scaling allows such a wide range of actual afr's on wot its not possible to be definitive based on those readings alone, and you are welcome to sit behind me and observe exactly what I do.
But stick the graphs up a good result deserves recognition.
cheers
bob
It's nothing to do with who to use mate they all do a decent job
But it's the attitude that I can't stomach
I know for a fact they have all made mistakes and are not perfect all the time , but the condescending attitude ( all the time gets too much )
I have no financial interest in mapping , that is common knowledge
Yet I've requested help from a few of these so called helpful mappers and not one will even offer an insight or advice on the actual process
John it's all well and good pointing on here about bobs offer , but not one has said I'm at such and such on this date pop along and have a look or watch the basics and maybe you can pick some bits and bobs up
I've never asked for an indepth lesson , nor to take up valuable time , just a few pointers , but not one has given such advice , the only advice that is forthcoming is done in a condescending manner on things I have already done
But it's the attitude that I can't stomach
I know for a fact they have all made mistakes and are not perfect all the time , but the condescending attitude ( all the time gets too much )
I have no financial interest in mapping , that is common knowledge
Yet I've requested help from a few of these so called helpful mappers and not one will even offer an insight or advice on the actual process
John it's all well and good pointing on here about bobs offer , but not one has said I'm at such and such on this date pop along and have a look or watch the basics and maybe you can pick some bits and bobs up
I've never asked for an indepth lesson , nor to take up valuable time , just a few pointers , but not one has given such advice , the only advice that is forthcoming is done in a condescending manner on things I have already done
14 January 2013, 07:55 PM
#56
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Just jump in mate and try and stir a little more ( for no reason )
Has it not crossed your mind yet that posting on here means very little to me (as do you're comments )
I've got no reputation to uphold and nothing to gain or lose financially
You're wasting you're time mate trust me
Has it not crossed your mind yet that posting on here means very little to me (as do you're comments )
I've got no reputation to uphold and nothing to gain or lose financially
You're wasting you're time mate trust me
14 January 2013, 08:25 PM
#57
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I must admit, I do think you're being a bit pig headed Tony.
You've said no one has offered advice, yet there's an offer there from Bob.
It's your bat and ball though. IF it blows up at least you know conclusively that it was your mapping at fault. You're having a go, and that's to be commended.
BTW mine made 70 more than yours on 380cc injectors.
You've said no one has offered advice, yet there's an offer there from Bob.
It's your bat and ball though. IF it blows up at least you know conclusively that it was your mapping at fault.
You're having a go, and that's to be commended.BTW mine made 70 more than yours on 380cc injectors.
