The great mapping rip off
07 August 2012, 12:13 PM
#721
I think SN is trying to become a mini NASIOC and IMHO it isn't going to happen. NASIOC was doing this over 10yrs ago so they are old hands but have taken a long time to get to where they are today.
I find US enthusiasts to be very knowledgeable and have this subject dissected down to a very fine degree but again, that has taken a very long time to get there and that's because it isn't easy as many on here seem to think it is.
I find there are a lot of engineering types out there, Hardware,Software, Mechanical, Automotive etc..., that no doubt are genuine petrolheads through and through, but have a natural aptitude for mapping and understanding of the technology and science behind mapping, not to mention are very hungry enthusiasts that clearly have a deep love of Subaru as much as we do, but it has to be said they are very good at what they do.
I know many kit car owners that map their own ECU's, Megasquirts, OMEX etc A lot of them are real hands-on engineering types that love doing this kind of thing, much the same as tuners here that remap and tune Subaru. Most have been doing it a long time and it takes a lot of time and knowledge and money to get to where they are now.
I don't believe for one second SN's general Subaru community are particularly interested in mapping their own, although they may well be interested in finding out a bit more but purely out of curiosity and general interest. IMHO if UK owners were really that keen and interested in DIY mapping this would have happened a long time ago. One member throws his toys out the pram, sticks his head out of the parapet and shouts, REVOLUTION!!.
Give over!!
If you want to learn all about mapping go over to NASIOC and ROMRAIDER and read the hundreds of thousands of threads on the subject if you have the time and inclination to do so. There are a handful of brits that are members of those USA forums and they map their own and others to a very high degree but only because they've put the time in, read everything, understood it all and applied it in the real world effectively, not to mention have as deep an interest in the subject as our US counterparts.
Stop kidding yourselves people...the technical resource you require is already out there and has been for a long time. All you have to do is get of your ***** and find the info you need.
However, as we are all generally lazy *******s and can't be bothered we expect someone else to do it all hence why we employ tuners to fettle our P&J's. It's what they are there for.
My guess is that barring the very small handful of people genuinely interested and frequenting the new forum regularly, this is going to be a dead duck.
Additionally i very much doubt you're going to get any help from tuners as it's unlikely they will want to give you the tools and ammunition to blow yourselves up. You'll be doing that quite easily yourselves!!
Finally.....Toneh, whichever tuner has upset you, pissed you off, whatever, that is a problem between you and them. However, tarring every tuner with the same brush is just vindictive, shows mal intent, and clearly demonstrates there is some hidden issues/agenda of your own going on.
Sabre rattling and inducing mass hysteria, and revolution against UK Subaru tuners isn't going to get you anywhere fast. It fact it may well backfire in your face one day.
You should be sorting out your problem directly with whoever has pissed you off instead of trying to shaft others that have done you no harm!!
I find US enthusiasts to be very knowledgeable and have this subject dissected down to a very fine degree but again, that has taken a very long time to get there and that's because it isn't easy as many on here seem to think it is.
I find there are a lot of engineering types out there, Hardware,Software, Mechanical, Automotive etc..., that no doubt are genuine petrolheads through and through, but have a natural aptitude for mapping and understanding of the technology and science behind mapping, not to mention are very hungry enthusiasts that clearly have a deep love of Subaru as much as we do, but it has to be said they are very good at what they do.
I know many kit car owners that map their own ECU's, Megasquirts, OMEX etc A lot of them are real hands-on engineering types that love doing this kind of thing, much the same as tuners here that remap and tune Subaru. Most have been doing it a long time and it takes a lot of time and knowledge and money to get to where they are now.
I don't believe for one second SN's general Subaru community are particularly interested in mapping their own, although they may well be interested in finding out a bit more but purely out of curiosity and general interest. IMHO if UK owners were really that keen and interested in DIY mapping this would have happened a long time ago. One member throws his toys out the pram, sticks his head out of the parapet and shouts, REVOLUTION!!.
Give over!!
If you want to learn all about mapping go over to NASIOC and ROMRAIDER and read the hundreds of thousands of threads on the subject if you have the time and inclination to do so. There are a handful of brits that are members of those USA forums and they map their own and others to a very high degree but only because they've put the time in, read everything, understood it all and applied it in the real world effectively, not to mention have as deep an interest in the subject as our US counterparts.
Stop kidding yourselves people...the technical resource you require is already out there and has been for a long time. All you have to do is get of your ***** and find the info you need.
However, as we are all generally lazy *******s and can't be bothered we expect someone else to do it all hence why we employ tuners to fettle our P&J's. It's what they are there for.
My guess is that barring the very small handful of people genuinely interested and frequenting the new forum regularly, this is going to be a dead duck.
Additionally i very much doubt you're going to get any help from tuners as it's unlikely they will want to give you the tools and ammunition to blow yourselves up. You'll be doing that quite easily yourselves!!
Finally.....Toneh, whichever tuner has upset you, pissed you off, whatever, that is a problem between you and them. However, tarring every tuner with the same brush is just vindictive, shows mal intent, and clearly demonstrates there is some hidden issues/agenda of your own going on.
Sabre rattling and inducing mass hysteria, and revolution against UK Subaru tuners isn't going to get you anywhere fast. It fact it may well backfire in your face one day.
You should be sorting out your problem directly with whoever has pissed you off instead of trying to shaft others that have done you no harm!!
07 August 2012, 12:26 PM
#722
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I think SN is trying to become a mini NASIOC and IMHO it isn't going to happen. NASIOC was doing this over 10yrs ago so they are old hands but have taken a long time to get to where they are today.
I find US enthusiasts to be very knowledgeable and have this subject dissected down to a very fine degree but again, that has taken a very long time to get there and that's because it isn't easy as many on here seem to think it is.
I find there are a lot of engineering types out there, Hardware,Software, Mechanical, Automotive etc..., that no doubt are genuine petrolheads through and through, but have a natural aptitude for mapping and understanding of the technology and science behind mapping, not to mention are very hungry enthusiasts that clearly have a deep love of Subaru as much as we do, but it has to be said they are very good at what they do.
I know many kit car owners that map their own ECU's, Megasquirts, OMEX etc A lot of them are real hands-on engineering types that love doing this kind of thing, much the same as tuners here that remap and tune Subaru. Most have been doing it a long time and it takes a lot of time and knowledge and money to get to where they are now.
I don't believe for one second SN's general Subaru community are particularly interested in mapping their own, although they may well be interested in finding out a bit more but purely out of curiosity and general interest. IMHO if UK owners were really that keen and interested in DIY mapping this would have happened a long time ago. One member throws his toys out the pram, sticks his head out of the parapet and shouts, REVOLUTION!!.
Give over!!
If you want to learn all about mapping go over to NASIOC and ROMRAIDER and read the hundreds of thousands of threads on the subject if you have the time and inclination to do so. There are a handful of brits that are members of those USA forums and they map their own and others to a very high degree but only because they've put the time in, read everything, understood it all and applied it in the real world effectively, not to mention have as deep an interest in the subject as our US counterparts.
Stop kidding yourselves people...the technical resource you require is already out there and has been for a long time. All you have to do is get of your ***** and find the info you need.
However, as we are all generally lazy *******s and can't be bothered we expect someone else to do it all hence why we employ tuners to fettle our P&J's. It's what they are there for.
My guess is that barring the very small handful of people genuinely interested and frequenting the new forum regularly, this is going to be a dead duck.
Additionally i very much doubt you're going to get any help from tuners as it's unlikely they will want to give you the tools and ammunition to blow yourselves up. You'll be doing that quite easily yourselves!!
Finally.....Toneh, whichever tuner has upset you, pissed you off, whatever, that is a problem between you and them. However, tarring every tuner with the same brush is just vindictive, shows mal intent, and clearly demonstrates there is some hidden issues/agenda of your own going on.
Sabre rattling and inducing mass hysteria, and revolution against UK Subaru tuners isn't going to get you anywhere fast. It fact it may well backfire in your face one day.
You should be sorting out your problem directly with whoever has pissed you off instead of trying to shaft others that have done you no harm!!
I find US enthusiasts to be very knowledgeable and have this subject dissected down to a very fine degree but again, that has taken a very long time to get there and that's because it isn't easy as many on here seem to think it is.
I find there are a lot of engineering types out there, Hardware,Software, Mechanical, Automotive etc..., that no doubt are genuine petrolheads through and through, but have a natural aptitude for mapping and understanding of the technology and science behind mapping, not to mention are very hungry enthusiasts that clearly have a deep love of Subaru as much as we do, but it has to be said they are very good at what they do.
I know many kit car owners that map their own ECU's, Megasquirts, OMEX etc A lot of them are real hands-on engineering types that love doing this kind of thing, much the same as tuners here that remap and tune Subaru. Most have been doing it a long time and it takes a lot of time and knowledge and money to get to where they are now.
I don't believe for one second SN's general Subaru community are particularly interested in mapping their own, although they may well be interested in finding out a bit more but purely out of curiosity and general interest. IMHO if UK owners were really that keen and interested in DIY mapping this would have happened a long time ago. One member throws his toys out the pram, sticks his head out of the parapet and shouts, REVOLUTION!!.
Give over!!
If you want to learn all about mapping go over to NASIOC and ROMRAIDER and read the hundreds of thousands of threads on the subject if you have the time and inclination to do so. There are a handful of brits that are members of those USA forums and they map their own and others to a very high degree but only because they've put the time in, read everything, understood it all and applied it in the real world effectively, not to mention have as deep an interest in the subject as our US counterparts.
Stop kidding yourselves people...the technical resource you require is already out there and has been for a long time. All you have to do is get of your ***** and find the info you need.
However, as we are all generally lazy *******s and can't be bothered we expect someone else to do it all hence why we employ tuners to fettle our P&J's. It's what they are there for.
My guess is that barring the very small handful of people genuinely interested and frequenting the new forum regularly, this is going to be a dead duck.
Additionally i very much doubt you're going to get any help from tuners as it's unlikely they will want to give you the tools and ammunition to blow yourselves up. You'll be doing that quite easily yourselves!!
Finally.....Toneh, whichever tuner has upset you, pissed you off, whatever, that is a problem between you and them. However, tarring every tuner with the same brush is just vindictive, shows mal intent, and clearly demonstrates there is some hidden issues/agenda of your own going on.
Sabre rattling and inducing mass hysteria, and revolution against UK Subaru tuners isn't going to get you anywhere fast. It fact it may well backfire in your face one day.
You should be sorting out your problem directly with whoever has pissed you off instead of trying to shaft others that have done you no harm!!
Mapping is not an impossible subject to learn (despite what a lot of people think) and the more information there is on SN, the better off SN will be.
07 August 2012, 12:58 PM
#723
Sorry but i don't buy it!!
Although i do understand what you're trying to achieve, after all you have to start somewhere, I've no problem with that at all.
However, the way in which this whole thing was started with Toneh's intro post showed a shedload of angst and it was written very aggressively and went straight for tuners jugulars, so forgive me if i don't see any good intent behind this and a whole heap of personal hidden agenda.
It's clear he has a beef with someone but by the same token there is no need to try stabbing tuners in the back. Why??
If you wanted to start the mapping section off the right way to have done it would be by starting a thread exploring the possibilities in a more relaxed and almost professional manner having meaningful postings about the do's and don't's and how's, not lets take a hammer and beat tuners with it!!
As for NASIOC....That's where the community is and there is no reason for you not to start off a UK mapping thread there. After all, the community there is expert at the subject and i'm sure they would have no issues helping UK DIY mappers with their own experience and advice. Then maybe at such time that there is some reasonable UK DIY mapping expertise/knowledge being gained, then start a section off and impart knowledge bit by bit as you go along and fully understand what it is you are advising.
Those very few SN DIY mappers expecting to advise wannabee tuners right now on this forum have barely scratched the surface themselves so what genuinely informed and in-depth advice advice can they really give being 100% sure of what they are talking about.
There are ways and means of doing things and i don't think this is it.
Although i do understand what you're trying to achieve, after all you have to start somewhere, I've no problem with that at all.
However, the way in which this whole thing was started with Toneh's intro post showed a shedload of angst and it was written very aggressively and went straight for tuners jugulars, so forgive me if i don't see any good intent behind this and a whole heap of personal hidden agenda.
It's clear he has a beef with someone but by the same token there is no need to try stabbing tuners in the back. Why??
If you wanted to start the mapping section off the right way to have done it would be by starting a thread exploring the possibilities in a more relaxed and almost professional manner having meaningful postings about the do's and don't's and how's, not lets take a hammer and beat tuners with it!!
As for NASIOC....That's where the community is and there is no reason for you not to start off a UK mapping thread there. After all, the community there is expert at the subject and i'm sure they would have no issues helping UK DIY mappers with their own experience and advice. Then maybe at such time that there is some reasonable UK DIY mapping expertise/knowledge being gained, then start a section off and impart knowledge bit by bit as you go along and fully understand what it is you are advising.
Those very few SN DIY mappers expecting to advise wannabee tuners right now on this forum have barely scratched the surface themselves so what genuinely informed and in-depth advice advice can they really give being 100% sure of what they are talking about.
There are ways and means of doing things and i don't think this is it.
Last edited by scoobiewrx555; 07 August 2012 at 01:13 PM.
07 August 2012, 01:20 PM
#724
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Sorry but i don't buy it!!
Although i do understand what you're trying to achieve, after all you have to start somewhere, I've no problem with that at all.
However, the way in which this whole thing was started with Toneh's intro post showed a shedload of angst and it was written very aggressively and went straight for tuners jugulars, so forgive me if i don't see any good intent behind this and a whole heap of personal hidden agenda.
It's clear he has a beef with someone but by the same token there is no need to try stabbing tuners in the back. Why??
If you wanted to start the mapping section off the right way to have done it would be by starting a thread exploring the possibilities in a more relaxed and almost professional manner having meaningful postings about the do's and don't's and how's, not lets take a hammer and beat tuners with it!!
As for NASIOC....That's where the community is and there is no reason for you not to start off a UK mapping thread there. After all, the community there is expert at the subject and i'm sure they would have no issues helping UK DIY mappers with their own experience and advice. Then maybe at such time that there is some reasonable UK DIY mapping expertise/knowledge being gained, then start a section off and impart knowledge bit by bit as you go along and fully understand what it is you are advising.
Those very few SN DIY mappers expecting to advise wannabee tuners right now on this forum have barely scratched the surface themselves so what genuinely informed and in-depth advice advice can they really give being 100% sure of what they are talking about.
There are ways and means of doing things and i don't think this isn't it.
Although i do understand what you're trying to achieve, after all you have to start somewhere, I've no problem with that at all.
However, the way in which this whole thing was started with Toneh's intro post showed a shedload of angst and it was written very aggressively and went straight for tuners jugulars, so forgive me if i don't see any good intent behind this and a whole heap of personal hidden agenda.
It's clear he has a beef with someone but by the same token there is no need to try stabbing tuners in the back. Why??
If you wanted to start the mapping section off the right way to have done it would be by starting a thread exploring the possibilities in a more relaxed and almost professional manner having meaningful postings about the do's and don't's and how's, not lets take a hammer and beat tuners with it!!
As for NASIOC....That's where the community is and there is no reason for you not to start off a UK mapping thread there. After all, the community there is expert at the subject and i'm sure they would have no issues helping UK DIY mappers with their own experience and advice. Then maybe at such time that there is some reasonable UK DIY mapping expertise/knowledge being gained, then start a section off and impart knowledge bit by bit as you go along and fully understand what it is you are advising.
Those very few SN DIY mappers expecting to advise wannabee tuners right now on this forum have barely scratched the surface themselves so what genuinely informed and in-depth advice advice can they really give being 100% sure of what they are talking about.
There are ways and means of doing things and i don't think this isn't it.
The whole point of the new section is for SN members to discuss mapping with other SN members... and possibly even meet up every once in a while to help each other out - that's not something that's as easy to do if the people you're discussing things with live across the Atlantic.
Anyway, I'm bored of discussing this now. You don't want a mapping section? Fine. Don't use it. I really couldn't care less. However, other members are interested and by the results of the poll, far more people wanted a mapping section than didn't.
07 August 2012, 01:31 PM
#725
Totally agreed, this discussion has altered course somewhat however, i don't see much commenting from the instigator of this discussion. He seems to have kept a low profile....I wonder why?
BTW you're right....I won't be frequenting your mapping section. Good luck with it.
BTW you're right....I won't be frequenting your mapping section. Good luck with it.
07 August 2012, 09:17 PM
#726
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im not getting involved in this and not gonna say anything else..Im not gonna name any names neither..but i paid over £300 cash for map,took 1 hour amd i could'nt really tell the differance to be honest,i was apparently doin 320bhp but the mapper got me to 340.Two days later i had a message to take it back to same mapper because he thinks theres more he can do and get me closer to 370bhp.That would have cost me an extra 150 for this 2so called tweak"..My argument is,,WTF COULD'NT HE HAVE GOT ME TO 370 ON THE FIRST VISIT??? Was he sat having his tea the night after and thought " hey ****..i could get this guy an extra 30bhp for another £150,instead of just the 20bhp i got him for £300"...And this was one of your top mappers mentioned on the first post..Dont get me wrong,they are all skilled and clever,but does make ya wonder..so in a way this blokes correct about getting shafted...NOT ALL MAPPERS ARE THE SAME...!!!.
07 August 2012, 09:49 PM
#727
If you were unhappy with the mapping you should have gone back to him and asked for your money back within a reasonable time i.e. a couple of days.
He would then have reverted it to what you were running before the mapping session and given you a refund. He should have a copy of your original ROM to flash to your ECU.
Every mapper/tuner should do that for you no questions asked.
He would then have reverted it to what you were running before the mapping session and given you a refund. He should have a copy of your original ROM to flash to your ECU.
Every mapper/tuner should do that for you no questions asked.
07 August 2012, 11:27 PM
#728
You cant copy someone elses ROM file, so a mapper cant revert to a previous map done by someone else on the OEM ECU using EcuTek. Aftermarket ECU's work differently, some have locked files that cant be altered so the new mapper has to start from scratch, some are fully open.
08 August 2012, 12:52 AM
#729
Open Source can see other Open Source tunes without a problem. Not keeping a backup of what was previously there is a bad idea in case the customer turns round and says they are not happy and wants their money back and their ECU put back to the way it was. What are you going to do without a backup?
I'm not sure though if an EcuTek tuner can see an Open Source map.
A few years ago a chap took his P&J to an engine builder to have a rebuild done. When it came to flashing a running in map using EcuTek the builder complained he couldn't access the ROM or flash the ECU due to the Open Source mapping and sold the owner another ECU that he could flash.
Other Open Source based/type software tools like ECUedit can remap locked ECUTEK ECU's and can read what was previously there, and when they write to the ECU it leaves the EcuTek licence intact and untouched.
I thought with EcuTek you do now have the ability to read another EcuTek tuners map or have i got that wrong?
I'm not sure though if an EcuTek tuner can see an Open Source map.
A few years ago a chap took his P&J to an engine builder to have a rebuild done. When it came to flashing a running in map using EcuTek the builder complained he couldn't access the ROM or flash the ECU due to the Open Source mapping and sold the owner another ECU that he could flash.
Other Open Source based/type software tools like ECUedit can remap locked ECUTEK ECU's and can read what was previously there, and when they write to the ECU it leaves the EcuTek licence intact and untouched.
I thought with EcuTek you do now have the ability to read another EcuTek tuners map or have i got that wrong?
08 August 2012, 08:40 AM
#730
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ive used pavlo aka paul balmire to map my car once for a full map on an apexi power fc and if i remember correctly it was around the 300 mark and then i changed the turbo to a td05 and added a 3 port boost solonoid with was classed as a map tweak at £150 mark..pleased with the results on both occasiond to say the least
i travelled from county durham to paul in wellingbourgh over 200 miles each way. i used him simply because of his reputation. this was on a terzo when first mapped had a132,000 miles on the clock and is still running perfectly to over 200,000 miles. would i have gotten this far with an unknown mapper most likely not.
in my opinion the likes of paul blamire, andy forrest , bob rawle , jgm have awesome reputations because theyve earned them and trust as we all know goes a massive was for piece of mind in tuning your car past what subaru intended
i travelled from county durham to paul in wellingbourgh over 200 miles each way. i used him simply because of his reputation. this was on a terzo when first mapped had a132,000 miles on the clock and is still running perfectly to over 200,000 miles. would i have gotten this far with an unknown mapper most likely not.
in my opinion the likes of paul blamire, andy forrest , bob rawle , jgm have awesome reputations because theyve earned them and trust as we all know goes a massive was for piece of mind in tuning your car past what subaru intended
08 August 2012, 06:52 PM
#731
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Open Source can see other Open Source tunes without a problem. Not keeping a backup of what was previously there is a bad idea in case the customer turns round and says they are not happy and wants their money back and their ECU put back to the way it was. What are you going to do without a backup?
I'm not sure though if an EcuTek tuner can see an Open Source map.
A few years ago a chap took his P&J to an engine builder to have a rebuild done. When it came to flashing a running in map using EcuTek the builder complained he couldn't access the ROM or flash the ECU due to the Open Source mapping and sold the owner another ECU that he could flash.
Other Open Source based/type software tools like ECUedit can remap locked ECUTEK ECU's and can read what was previously there, and when they write to the ECU it leaves the EcuTek licence intact and untouched.
I thought with EcuTek you do now have the ability to read another EcuTek tuners map or have i got that wrong?
I'm not sure though if an EcuTek tuner can see an Open Source map.
A few years ago a chap took his P&J to an engine builder to have a rebuild done. When it came to flashing a running in map using EcuTek the builder complained he couldn't access the ROM or flash the ECU due to the Open Source mapping and sold the owner another ECU that he could flash.
Other Open Source based/type software tools like ECUedit can remap locked ECUTEK ECU's and can read what was previously there, and when they write to the ECU it leaves the EcuTek licence intact and untouched.
I thought with EcuTek you do now have the ability to read another EcuTek tuners map or have i got that wrong?
Some good points there mate. The first thing i did when i open ported my car was to read and save the rom file ( on several comps and on my tactrix openport 2.0 memory card ) The second thing i did was perform a write to ECU check. Thats the way it should always go.
EDIT : Just had the thought that wouldnt it be decent of mappers to give the customer a copy of their ROM before they did their mapping / tweaking on a memory card etc as a form of common courtesy. Then if the car ever developed faults in the future, or say miles away from the mapper, they could get their previous map flashed back on if need be or at least read and referred to. Your rom is your property at the end of the day.
Last edited by madmarx; 08 August 2012 at 07:01 PM.
08 August 2012, 07:31 PM
#732
If a customer wants their original ROM and they have a memory card or flash drive/stick handy I'd have no problem copying it over for them they only have to ask. Alternatively there is email.
Hypothetically speaking
Hypothetically speaking
09 August 2012, 08:06 AM
#733
I also have customers that I have remapped for that datalog their own cars and have an ongoing interest in what is going on, they often send me datalogs for review and comment.
Almost all customers don't want to do this though as their eyes glaze over as they see the depth of what is goine into whilst mapping despite the essence of it being relatively simple to get small improvements. As said by Paul a long while ago on this thread, maximising a map is completely different though and when paid to map a car for a customer, I am expected to get the best possible safe performance from a car on every occasion. I try and explain everything that I am doing along the way (if they are interested) to get the results they want. It isnt a black art but there is no substitute for experience - it is relatively easy when a car is well behaved but when they misbehave or strange stuff happens it takes an in depth understanding of what can be the cause to then try and fix in the map or advise other material factors that are causing the issue.
As for the rest of the hundreds of posts on here, I value my spare time too much to go through them all
but I am sure you all will have fun debating for some time to come 
09 August 2012, 08:49 AM
#735
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This thread has totally veered off topic on a lot of posts.
I think people who want to self map and have the knowledge good on ya you do that but "if" it goes wrong expect criticism ,
I'm clued up in technology etc but wouldn't even try insult the proffesional guys such as Duncan above by doing it myself even tweaks etc .. It would be the peace of mind that when I drive it it's been done correctly and I can feel comfortable with what's been done I would never feel settled doing it or even letti g someone who's just started up do it .
You don't in my mind just pay for the map/tweak you pay for the service / knowledge of these guys who's been doing it for years and the peace of mind your cars right, also you can ask questions while your there and gain info that you could use in the future and the main one for me getting a pro to do it is like I said the peace of mind when your driving it say like me with my 3 kids in its done right and I'm not going to get no nasty bangs etc etc and to me that peace of minds worth it's weight in gold that's why once my cars got everything that's needed race dynamics will map my esl after a very helpful phone call ..
I think people who want to self map and have the knowledge good on ya you do that but "if" it goes wrong expect criticism ,
I'm clued up in technology etc but wouldn't even try insult the proffesional guys such as Duncan above by doing it myself even tweaks etc .. It would be the peace of mind that when I drive it it's been done correctly and I can feel comfortable with what's been done I would never feel settled doing it or even letti g someone who's just started up do it .
You don't in my mind just pay for the map/tweak you pay for the service / knowledge of these guys who's been doing it for years and the peace of mind your cars right, also you can ask questions while your there and gain info that you could use in the future and the main one for me getting a pro to do it is like I said the peace of mind when your driving it say like me with my 3 kids in its done right and I'm not going to get no nasty bangs etc etc and to me that peace of minds worth it's weight in gold that's why once my cars got everything that's needed race dynamics will map my esl after a very helpful phone call ..
09 August 2012, 12:12 PM
#738
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09 August 2012, 01:39 PM
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), oh and lets not forget greater disposable income due to lower cost of living, so perhaps a little more appetite to take on more than a decat and filter...both of which influence the number and type of posts...Just saying...
09 August 2012, 02:59 PM
#740
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Yeah suppose ure right but unless I've missed him toneh hasn't posted for a while???
As said there's a means of doing things and starting a thread off " the great mapping rip off" is in mho is stupid it may have not been Meant like that but it always the same on forums you can tell someone to f off to there face and judge there tone etc but on a computer it means what it means . Should of been something like " save money doing your own mapping " along them lines .
If I wanted to be a mapper IDE of been a mapper I chose my proffesion and so did they that's why there in business tbh its posts like this why majority of mappers stay clear but can't be supprised if genuine top grade mappers like andy f , Duncan, bob etc etc get a little peed off at titles like that
Last edited by banzai2009; 09 August 2012 at 03:34 PM.
09 August 2012, 03:12 PM
#741
Yeah suppose ure right but unless I've missed him toneh hasn't posted for a while???
As said there's a means of doing things and starting a thread off " the great mapping rip off" is in mho is stupid it may have not bee. Meant like that but it always the same on forums you can tell someone to f off to there face and judge there to e etc but on a computer it means what it means . Should of been something like " save money doing your own mapping " along them lines .
If I wanted to be a mapper IDE of been a mapper I chose my proffesion and so did they that's why there in business tbh its posts like this why majority of mappers stay clear but can't be supprised if genuine top grade mappers like andy f , Duncan, bob etc etc get a little peed off at titles like that
09 August 2012, 06:13 PM
#742
Iirc SN is fourteen years old (as is 22b.com), and NASOIC is eleven years old...there are far more Subaru owners in the States too (it's a big country ), oh and lets not forget greater disposable income due to lower cost of living, so perhaps a little more appetite to take on more than a decat and filter...both of which influence the number and type of posts...
Just saying...
), oh and lets not forget greater disposable income due to lower cost of living, so perhaps a little more appetite to take on more than a decat and filter...both of which influence the number and type of posts...Just saying...
17 November 2012, 02:47 PM
#743
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Now old hat or not I think in light of recent events this thread was revived
It has now become apparent that some pro mappers have been using free open source software , Andy carr is obviously the first to be discovered , and Duncan dynamix name is being mentioned as being a possible user , true or not I don't know ,so this is total hearsay at the moment
Now we were told part of the cost was rom quality , development , and a proven product but it's now plainly obvious that this is not the case and even when free roms are being used it seems there are no cost reductions being passed on
In fact as mentioned Elsewhere some free features of certain roms are being Charged for at extra cost
So if a mapper would like to explain why , I'm sure there are folks that would love to hear
It has now become apparent that some pro mappers have been using free open source software , Andy carr is obviously the first to be discovered , and Duncan dynamix name is being mentioned as being a possible user , true or not I don't know ,so this is total hearsay at the moment
Now we were told part of the cost was rom quality , development , and a proven product but it's now plainly obvious that this is not the case and even when free roms are being used it seems there are no cost reductions being passed on
In fact as mentioned Elsewhere some free features of certain roms are being Charged for at extra cost
So if a mapper would like to explain why , I'm sure there are folks that would love to hear
17 November 2012, 03:12 PM
#746
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ROFLOL - You either like "discussion" or you're a sadist!
Mappers who have been using free software has been going on for years and I see no reason for that being an issue, as long as the enduser isn't paying for something that he/she shouldn't software wise. Paying for functionality that requires "work" is something different though, as long as that charge is based on the time / facilities required to enable it.
Since you're referring to specifics, would you care to put some meat on the bone. The question is pretty much useless without any context.
Mappers who have been using free software has been going on for years and I see no reason for that being an issue, as long as the enduser isn't paying for something that he/she shouldn't software wise. Paying for functionality that requires "work" is something different though, as long as that charge is based on the time / facilities required to enable it.
Since you're referring to specifics, would you care to put some meat on the bone. The question is pretty much useless without any context.
17 November 2012, 03:22 PM
#748
Toneh....You are being confrontational for the sake of it now. Why are you being such an ****??
This subject has already been done to death and the people paying for an OS remap know what they are paying for already, and that's to have it done for them.
What tuners charge to effect a remap is between them and the customer and has **** all to do with you or anyone else. If the customer is happy to pay then fair enough. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
If you want to DIY then good for you, but don't berate OS tuners for using their skils, experience and valuable time for financial gain. That's the name of the game regardless of what software mapping tools you use, OS, EcuTek or Cobb come to that whether you pay for the tools or not.
As long as OS mappers are playing the OS game and contributing/donating for the pleasure of everyone is happy including the OS originators and community...But not you that is!!
Leave it alone and carry on with what you're doing, never mind what anyone else is doing otherwise you're just going to make yourself look a complete ****!! You said your bit ages ago and were given quality responses so why carry it on.
You'll be the first one to say thanks very much if a tuner jumps in and offers you some technical resource free of charge to a mapping problem you're struggling with so why this bull****.
You bored or something??
This subject has already been done to death and the people paying for an OS remap know what they are paying for already, and that's to have it done for them.
What tuners charge to effect a remap is between them and the customer and has **** all to do with you or anyone else. If the customer is happy to pay then fair enough. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
If you want to DIY then good for you, but don't berate OS tuners for using their skils, experience and valuable time for financial gain. That's the name of the game regardless of what software mapping tools you use, OS, EcuTek or Cobb come to that whether you pay for the tools or not.
As long as OS mappers are playing the OS game and contributing/donating for the pleasure of everyone is happy including the OS originators and community...But not you that is!!
Leave it alone and carry on with what you're doing, never mind what anyone else is doing otherwise you're just going to make yourself look a complete ****!! You said your bit ages ago and were given quality responses so why carry it on.
You'll be the first one to say thanks very much if a tuner jumps in and offers you some technical resource free of charge to a mapping problem you're struggling with so why this bull****.
You bored or something??
17 November 2012, 03:36 PM
#749
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It does seem that these mappers buy some software from a site such as http://www.ecu-mods.com/online/index.php and then sell it on each time they use it. Just compounds the theory that its all a bit of a rip off.
I have no problem with mappers providing a good map but to keep selling someone else's software and claim it as their own is a bit unfair in my opinion.
I would never use a mapper again, did it once just to see what they did, cheap way to work out what they do and more importantly what they dont do. Went on to buy my own kit and redid the map, especially in the part throttle region. Made it much more drivable, increased MPG and robustness.
I have no problem with mappers providing a good map but to keep selling someone else's software and claim it as their own is a bit unfair in my opinion.
I would never use a mapper again, did it once just to see what they did, cheap way to work out what they do and more importantly what they dont do. Went on to buy my own kit and redid the map, especially in the part throttle region. Made it much more drivable, increased MPG and robustness.
17 November 2012, 03:44 PM
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ROFLOL - You either like "discussion" or you're a sadist!
Mappers who have been using free software has been going on for years and I see no reason for that being an issue, as long as the enduser isn't paying for something that he/she shouldn't software wise. Paying for functionality that requires "work" is something different though, as long as that charge is based on the time / facilities required to enable it.
Since you're referring to specifics, would you care to put some meat on the bone. The question is pretty much useless without any context.
Mappers who have been using free software has been going on for years and I see no reason for that being an issue, as long as the enduser isn't paying for something that he/she shouldn't software wise. Paying for functionality that requires "work" is something different though, as long as that charge is based on the time / facilities required to enable it.
Since you're referring to specifics, would you care to put some meat on the bone. The question is pretty much useless without any context.
Specifically why are mappers charging comparable prices To ecutek for mapping o/s when some (most) of the o/s software is free and the so called extra costs for rom integrity , development ect are not applicable